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And not being held accountable. I think that to be of greater concern.
The 2020 George Floyd/BLM/Police Brutality Protests Discussion Thread
- Thread starter DesertPenguin
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Groundfish
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If you’ve read my comments you will see I’ve already said that multiple times across several different threads.
Look guys I can’t be bothered to respond if all that’s on offer is strawman after strawman.
My point made is that you can look at data dispassionately and in an academic fashion or you can look at people video recording themselves ranting about whatever they want to or listen to social media or whatever you want.
Until the underlying issues that have led to this horrifying situation are understood and corrected there is no real progress.
Cheers
Joey D
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Trump says he’s finalizing executive order on police reform
Will this:
A.) Not Be Helpful
B.) Be Unconstitutional
C.) Be Racist
D.) Expand Government Overreach
E.) Blame Democrats and/or Biden
F.) All of the Above
The answer is going to be F isn't it?
Will this:
A.) Not Be Helpful
B.) Be Unconstitutional
C.) Be Racist
D.) Expand Government Overreach
E.) Blame Democrats and/or Biden
F.) All of the Above
The answer is going to be F isn't it?
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Bye, Felicia.
- 11,698
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Ah, the old "I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin" plausible deniability.
I've seen this a few times on this board. Using some dubious set of data to impress a conclusion that cannot be substantiated with an actual logical argument, but which provides some cover for an opinion that the information purveyor desperately wants to hold as reasonable - because its either neat and tidy and requires no deeper investigation or because it aligns with their worldview. Is there a succinct fallacy term for this?
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Groundfish
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I’ve stated I am against misinterpretation of data and misdiagnosis of underlying issues, and provided official statistics.
I repeated my position many times.
Impoverished + crime ridden areas = real change needed not knee jerk responses
For some reason that results in this as the sole response:
That’s simply not worth my time any longer.
I repeated my position many times.
Impoverished + crime ridden areas = real change needed not knee jerk responses
For some reason that results in this as the sole response:
That’s simply not worth my time any longer.
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Well, what is the real change you are suggesting?
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- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
How many times does someone have to say something isn’t worth their time before it truly isn’t?
I’d guess it’d afford someone enough time to actually point out the relevant portions of an 183-page document, at the very least.
Ah, the maple leaf equivalent of the Daily Mail. Let’s see how it’s reported:
I’d guess it’d afford someone enough time to actually point out the relevant portions of an 183-page document, at the very least.
Ah, the maple leaf equivalent of the Daily Mail. Let’s see how it’s reported:
UKMikey
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killerjimbag
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So I guess the video of people shooting is not accurate. I could care less what the reporter says. Blasting off guns into the direction of the 401? Dude wake up man.How many times does someone have to say something isn’t worth their time before it truly isn’t?
I’d guess it’d afford someone enough time to actually point out the relevant portions of an 183-page document, at the very least.
Ah, the maple leaf equivalent of the Daily Mail. Let’s see how it’s reported:
- 27,387
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Bolded for the key part.
I’m not condoning the actions in the video. I never said I did.
Framing Toronto as a nightly shooting range or worse than war zones is dishonest “reporting”. It’s fear-mongering, and as illustrated, works on people who don’t actually live here.
killerjimbag
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Well sorry to burst your bubble. I lived and worked in Toronto for 15 years for CN and Via Rail. My daughter lives right behind Rogers Center left field line. When was the last time you took a stroll around the Jane and Finch area at night time? So a bunch of clowns decide to pull out illegal weapons and randomly fire them in the direction of the 401 while cars are going by doing 100 kms an hour. OK
Joey D
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What is your broader point?
killerjimbag
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Joey D
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You make it sounds like Slip's never been to Toronto and doesn't understand what it's like there.
As for Toronto itself? I've walked around most of the city and had to go there for a previous job occasionally. I never felt unsafe in any area of the city, especially when compared to some of the American cities I've been in.
killerjimbag
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Ok perhaps you didn't read the part that "my daughter lives in Toronto" Just around the corner were the rapper Hoidini was shot a week ago. Here I don't want to make it sound like I don't know what's going on 50 miles from me. It's not like I'm on the other side of Canada. Read up.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globaln...oronto-police-shootings-may-19-overnight/amp/
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- NotThePrez
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Implying that those who fall into a "certain group," or those that live in a certain area have the potential to be a violent person, and should be treated as such before they even get to speak for themselves.
Presuming a random stranger is innocent until proven otherwise is the basis of our legal system. It's also the basis of being a good human being.
That being said, in my original statement "suggested" would've probably been a better choice of word on my part.
Implying that the people who currently live in impoverished areas are already uneducated, unemployed, contribute little to society, and that they need to have someone to tell them what you/they "think" would give them freedom and happiness. If you went down to an "impoverished" neighborhood and tried peddling that malarkey, I'm fairly confident you'd do nothing but create an insane amount of resentment, and get yelled out. You'd also demonstrate your tone-deafness as to why areas like that became what they are in the first place.
You linked a 183-page document from 2010 and gave little-to-no indication of which parts of it were actually relevant.
You also linked an article that tries to explain the number, not the cause or justifiability, of police shootings, while once again giving little-to-no indication of which parts of the article were actually relevant.
Neither pieces of "data" are relevant to the main crux of the issue, and trying to parrot them as such is discussion in bad faith.
You also neglected to point out which parts of your data were actually relevant to your argument. You basically just said "this data supports my opinion" and left it at that. When asked to clarify which part of the data was actually relevant, such as @Danoff had done, you literally just say...
That is discussion in bad faith, and it makes you sound like you're not required to explain your point. You make a claim, or try to present data, then it's your responsibility to back it up. Making others do homework because you can't be bothered to explain what makes your evidence relevant is both intellectually dishonest and quite insulting.
I'm not gonna sift through a 183 page document with nothing to go on. Especially when that document itself is nearly 10 years old, and using data that's 15 years old at best. Nevermind that, once again, the document is another attempt at deflection and is irrelevant to the main issue.
Also, I like how you edited out the second part of my sentence. At least now I know you're actively going out of your way to avoid addressing the main issue of police abusing their power, and have basically signaled that you're avoiding any attempts to understand why people are upset about it.
You're literally saying that it's more important to get or "create" a job than it is to protest (a constitutional right, btw) the lack of accountability police receive when someone dies due to their actions, and their death was both unjustified and avoidable. You're also saying that using one's energy to campaign for the police to respect basic human rights is "a letdown."
Also implying that police shouldn't be subject to criticism because they're "doing a necessary job."
Also, when I directly asked you to clarify yourself, you deflected. Twice.
Yes, because it's invalid to think that anecdotal stories are on the same level as pure, objective fact. It's really damn easy for someone to mis-remember, be uninformed, or straight-up lie about something they went through, and then pass it off as fact. That's also why anecdotal stories are not a blueprint for every situation or area that seems similar to the original teller's experience.
I literally gave you an example of such before. I'm not surprised to find out that you ignored it.
Don't want to respect an individual for what they did? That's cool.
Respecting the fact that something went down and learning about the events that led up to a situation, however, is important and can also add important context to a situation, which is why it's one of the main pillars of our legal system. Yet police, the people assigned with defending us, have on multiple occasions acted as judge, jury and executioner and have gotten away with it relatively unscathed. Again, the reasons people are protesting police are not something that popped up overnight.
See above.
Then maybe take the time to learn more about why things are the way they are in the first place. In particular, take some time to learn about it from the viewpoint of an American minority.
Maybe then, you'll actually grasp what the hell people are protesting about.
And you know what would be a fantastic start? Showing some actual compassion for your fellow citizens and learning about what protesters are fighting for. Not trying to make it seem like police are above question, throwing out "data" to move the spotlight, and think in total absolutes.
And I (and many many others) want the people who are tasked with my protection held accountable when they screw up, especially if their screw-up results in an unnecessary, avoidable death. I (and many others) want the police to be held to the same standards and penalties as any other person who screwed up and someone dies as a result. The people protesting for this are going out of their way to make sure we don't return to business as usual.
Crime-rates, homicide rates, black-on-black violence, probability equations, addressing intelligence, etc. are not the issue at hand, and treating them as such is disingenuous.
Edit: Once again, @killerjimbag , still waiting on that evidence.
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Joey D
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Ya, it's a big city, like the fourth biggest in North America behind Mexico City, LA, and NYC, crime happens. Still given its size, it was also ranked the 6th safest city in the world in 2019. Also, in 2019, it had 79 homicides. By comparison, Chicago which has roughly the same population (2.8 million vs. 2.7 million) had 491 murders. Toronto isn't the wild west by any means. Weirdly, the city with the highest murder per capita rate is Thunder Bay...which confuses me because I wasn't aware anything happened in Thunder Bay at all.
If you want to look at outright crime, Thompson, Manitoba has the highest crime index. Toronto doesn't even crack the top 10, in fact, it's 39th.
killerjimbag
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I guess you missed the video.
I guess you missed the video. People pulled out their illegal handguns and just randomly shot back at whomever shot at them. The problem being is that the busiest highway in North America was in the firing line. Total disregard for innocent people. Thank God nobody was hit doing 65 miles an hour by a stray bullet. Your humour is pretty sad to say the least.
UKMikey
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Was there a video in the article you told us to read up on? Then you should highlight it in your post. Maybe summarise it as you did just now instead of expecting other people to try and feel their way around whatever it is that you're trying to say.
Shooting into traffic may be pretty bad as crimes go but I'm not sure they make Toronto the worst city for gun shootings in North America unless severity trumps frequency. And I'm still not sure how it justifies or excuses police brutality even if it did.
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I think that you would find that the reason the incident happened, fundamentally, is for reasons that *should* be outside the scope of police responsibility. That is to say, the root cause of the problems facing inner cities in North America, is not one that can or should be solved by giving police more money or more man-power. The best that the police can manage to do is paper over the cracks. And that's exactly what is the current status quo. I don't see how anyone can look at America today and say, "ah, everything is just fine" - so I think most people would readily admit that there are problems. We've been giving police more money, more equipment, and more manpower for decades, and the problems are not getting better. All of that is to say that it is, in my opinion, a red herring to suggest that "de-funding" the police will lead to more incidents like the one described in that remarkably badly written piece that @killerjimbag linked, because, largely, police funding has nothing to do with the intrinsic problem.
What if Toronto, instead, rerouted some (emphatically NOT ALL) police funding to improving the public school system? Community infrastructure development? Mental health services? Maybe get young inner city kids interesting in doing things like starting a business? Directing the money into directly improving the communities and the people residing within them seems like money a lot better spent than money sent to the police to clean up the mess of a broken society. Poor people are incredibly disenfranchised in this country - they own next to nothing as a group, and it's getting worse. We need to think about it, and how to fix it. (I'd argue that starts at the FED, but that's for another thread)
It's like if you have a blown headgasket in your car and you just pour vast resources into keeping coolant in the thing rather than actually attempting to replace the headgasket. You get my meaning?
What if Toronto, instead, rerouted some (emphatically NOT ALL) police funding to improving the public school system? Community infrastructure development? Mental health services? Maybe get young inner city kids interesting in doing things like starting a business? Directing the money into directly improving the communities and the people residing within them seems like money a lot better spent than money sent to the police to clean up the mess of a broken society. Poor people are incredibly disenfranchised in this country - they own next to nothing as a group, and it's getting worse. We need to think about it, and how to fix it. (I'd argue that starts at the FED, but that's for another thread)
It's like if you have a blown headgasket in your car and you just pour vast resources into keeping coolant in the thing rather than actually attempting to replace the headgasket. You get my meaning?
