The 2020 George Floyd/BLM/Police Brutality Protests Discussion Thread

[strela]

No, you made the claim, you back it up.

There is a badge on the bullet proof vest with a silver star on it. Have no idea what it stands for but doubt it is just for decoration.

 

[killerjimbag]

All that does is make it all the more strange that someone who is clearly open carrying in a non-open carry state is ignored and allowed to walk away!

The use of firearms is indeed a major issue in the city (and I've not stated any place that it isn't), as such would you not agree that anyone breaking the law with regard to firearms should be held accountable?

Clearly you haven't been in the inner city of Chicago,Compton,Baltimore,Detroit etc. The cops don't go into the inner city after dark unless absolutely necessary. People are shot and killed daily in those cities. No protests going on there. If people actually protested the senseless murders going on in their own communities do you think it would stop? Every child killed in these cities is terrible. Why is no one going there to protest? Why are they not marching there. Do these lives not matter? https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/02/17/us/chicago-shootings-children-shot/index.html
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sour...BhAC&usg=AOvVaw2lhGD66pz4l1qvMQQjPlls&ampcf=1
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sour...WMAN6BAgHEAE&usg=AOvVaw1FQbUw1PZ5bHG3DDmAPky-
Were are the protests over these black lives?

 

[Scaff]

There is a badge on the bullet proof vest with a silver star on it. Have no idea what it stands for but doubt it is just for decoration.

Most of his costume is for decoration, so I'm not taking it on face value that's not. If he's registered in the state as a security guard then he would have a firearms control card (issued after completing mandatory training), which would allow him to carry in his place of employement, on his commute to work or travel between sites of employment. As such the police should have requested that and no video evidence shows that occurring at all.

You made the claim he was licenced, you've not shown that to be the case, and even if he is (citation still needed on that), he's still not allowed to open carry without a valid reason and the video doesn't support a reason, nor show the police checking on his status to do so.

Clearly you haven't been in the inner city of Chicago,Compton,Baltimore,Detroit etc. The cops don't go into the inner city after dark unless absolutely necessary. People are shot and killed daily in those cities. No protests going on there. If people actually protested the senseless murders going on in their own communities do you think it would stop? Every child killed in these cities is terrible. Why is no one going there to protest? Why are they not marching there. Do these lives not matter? https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/02/17/us/chicago-shootings-children-shot/index.html
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-overnight-shootings-05272020-20200527-ehwgqp6qxjg6hb3declx7mnyji-story.html?outputType=amp&ved=2ahUKEwi555fhyuXpAhUFI6wKHZL2DcYQFjAGegQIBhAC&usg=AOvVaw2lhGD66pz4l1qvMQQjPlls&ampcf=1
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sour...WMAN6BAgHEAE&usg=AOvVaw1FQbUw1PZ5bHG3DDmAPky-
Were are the protests over these black lives?

Not a shred of which actually addresses the point I made. Its also utterly misleading, as even a quick google search shows that protests about gun violence are a regular occurrence in Chicago.

So I will ask the question again.

The use of firearms is indeed a major issue in the city (and I've not stated any place that it isn't), as such would you not agree that anyone breaking the law with regard to firearms should be held accountable?

 

[kilesa4568]

Why is no one going there to protest? Why are they not marching there. Do these lives not matter?

As tragic as that is, they didn't have four police officers on each of their backs contributing to their death and it wasn't caught on video for the world to see.

 

[Scaff]

As tragic as that is, they didn't have four police officers on each of their backs contributing to their death and it wasn't caught on video for the world to see.

Its also a disingenuous and distracting statement, as protests about gun violence in Chicago are a regular occurrence.

 

[strela]

Most of his costume is for decoration, so I'm not taking it on face value that's not.

Your point is much more believable than mine.

 

[McLaren]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Chicago's homicide rate dropping every year until 2016 where it jumped again & most of it is attributed to gang-on-gang violence?

 

[killerjimbag]

Most of his costume is for decoration, so I'm not taking it on face value that's not. If he's registered in the state as a security guard then he would have a firearms control card (issued after completing mandatory training), which would allow him to carry in his place of employement, on his commute to work or travel between sites of employment. As such the police should have requested that and no video evidence shows that occurring at all.

You made the claim he was licenced, you've not shown that to be the case, and even if he is (citation still needed on that), he's still not allowed to open carry without a valid reason and the video doesn't support a reason, nor show the police checking on his status to do so.


Not a shred of which actually addresses the point I made. Its also utterly misleading, as even a quick google search shows that protests about gun violence are a regular occurrence in Chicago.

So I will ask the question again.

The use of firearms is indeed a major issue in the city (and I've not stated any place that it isn't), as such would you not agree that anyone breaking the law with regard to firearms should be held accountable?

Yes they should be held accountable. Unfortunately snitches get stitches in these communities. They do not report the ones doing it for fear of retribution. They are not marching down the inner city streets at night. Trust me.

 

[Scaff]

Your point is much more believable than mine.

That which is presented without proof can be dismissed without proof, you haven't provided proof, you've provided a wild guess. None of which changes the factual point in regard to the police not checking his firearms control card as they should have.

That is what he would need to carry openly under the very limited situations I outlined, his shiny star doesn't.

This is not a shiny star...

..it is however what is required.

Feel free to highlight the shiny star exemption in the actual law...

https://codes.findlaw.com/il/chapter-720-criminal-offenses/il-st-sect-720-5-24-2.html

...I can wait.

Yes they should be held accountable. Unfortunately snitches get stitches in these communities. They do not report the ones doing it for fear of retribution. They are not marching down the inner city streets at night. Trust me.

So why do you think the police did not carry out due diligence with this individual (as that's the actual point at hand)?

 

[HenrySwanson]

Just dropped my sister off for the protest starting at Hyde Park, hopefully it goes peacefully.

You made the claim he was licenced, you've not shown that to be the case, and even if he is (citation still needed on that), he's still not allowed to open carry without a valid reason and the video doesn't support a reason, nor show the police checking on his status to do so.

Strela may have got the claim from this article or one similar to it:

A spokesman for Chicago police department told DailyMail.com: 'He was a licensed private security guard, and people who are on duty are allowed to have guns out on display.'

 

[strela]

...I can wait.

Is what @HenrySwanson posted enough proof or do I need to drag that person to this forum? But even then you would probably find something to argue your point.

 

[killerjimbag]

Is what @HenrySwanson posted enough proof or do I need to drag that person to this forum? But even then you would probably find something to argue your point.

Yeah go figure an armed licensed to carry security guard stopping looting. What a bad thing.

 

[Scaff]

Just dropped my sister off for the protest starting at Hyde Park, hopefully it goes peacefully.


Strela may have got the claim from this article or one similar to it:

Is what @HenrySwanson posted enough proof or do I need to drag that person to this forum? But even then you would probably find something to argue your point.

Yeah go figure an armed licensed to carry security guard stopping looting. What a bad thing.

Now putting aside the fact that the Daily Mail is a source so unreliable that even Wiki don't allow citations from it, it still doesn't answer the questions I raised.

So why do you think the police did not carry out due diligence with this individual (as that's the actual point at hand)?

Or can you point out the moment in the video in which his firearms control card was checked?

 

[strela]

Or can you point out the moment in the video in which his firearms control card was checked?

Yeah, like you would admit that some video from an unreliable source is actually a valid proof.

 

[Danoff]

I want to like this post because I like the quote. But I feel that it is being misused.

 

[Scaff]

Yeah, like you would admit that some video from an unreliable source is actually a valid proof.

The video could well be incomplete, I've not said otherwise (feel free to cite me saying otherwise).

However, the state law is quite straightforward in regard to how open carry by licenced individuals operates and even if licenced you don't just get to wander around as you like.

Please keep in mind that I'm the one who has brought the factual information into this discussion around what is required to open carry as a licenced security guard in the city (and its not the star you claimed) and what the limitations on that are.

 

[killerjimbag]

Now putting aside the fact that the Daily Mail is a source so unreliable that even Wiki don't allow citations from it, it still doesn't answer the questions I raised.

So why do you think the police did not carry out due diligence with this individual (as that's the actual point at hand)?

Or can you point out the moment in the video in which his firearms control card was checked?

They probably asked him if he was a security guard. Perhaps he showed it before the video was taken. I mean clearly people were looting. I would have shot the SOB myself. But hey,I only use my guns for hunting.

 

[TexRex]

Citation needed.

Ikr. Guilty until proven otherwise.

Misrepresenting the remarks of another as something they are not in a clear attempt to gain an advantage in an argument is not appropriate. It's deceitful.

What I did was submit to you a request for additional information; specifically information that supported a claim that you made.

What you then did, as both shown and alluded to above, was spin that as something that it was not.

 

[Scaff]

They probably asked him if he was a security guard. Perhaps he showed it before the video was taken.

He may well have done. He doesn't, however, seem to be in the process of carrying out his job (he's a good walk away from the store in that case) or commuting to work, in which case his carry becomes illegal regardless of an FCC

Opps just checked, the commuting bit doesn't apply to security guards.

I mean clearly people were looting.

In the video? Nope. Were people looting, yes, that doesn't however then mean that all laws go out the window? As such he had no reason to carry them on his trip over to the police, like it or not it falls outside of the state's regulations on licenced open carry by a security guard.

I would have shot the SOB myself. But hey,I only use my guns for hunting.

In which case maybe guns aren't for you.

 

[strela]

Misrepresenting the remarks of another as something they are not in a clear attempt to gain an advantage in an argument is not appropriate. It's deceitful.

What I did was submit to you a request for additional information; specifically information that supported a claim that you made.

What you then did, as both shown and alluded to above, was spin that as something that it was not.

So I need a solid proof to backup my claim while you don't need to lift a finger to prove I'm mistaken?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

https://www.hpherald.com/news/akira...cle_39c9d84c-a519-11ea-9125-4760036ebceb.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-chicago-rifle-armed-white-man-a9543401.html

Here are some other articles about it. He was from a private security firm, but it doesn't look like he should be allowed to open carry.

 

[Famine]

So I need a solid proof to backup my claim while you don't need to lift a finger to prove I'm mistaken?

Yes. That's literally how it works. Any claim without proof can be assumed untrue, and the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the proof. Otherwise anyone could make anything up. The burden of proof always rests on the one making the claim.

 

[TexRex]

So I need a solid proof to backup my claim while you don't need to lift a finger to prove I'm mistaken?

When people make claims, the onus is theirs to substantiate those claims. One hopes that claims are founded upon information and aren't simply pulled from the ether, and that information may be submitted as substantiation for review. It is not the duty of others to determine the validity of one's claim(s) without information having been made available.

I asked for a citation; for information that may provide insight into the claim that you made.

 

[Tornado]

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/03/politics/de-blasio-cuomo-nypd-floyd-protests/index.html

"We do not want heavily armed people who are not trained for the circumstance and not from here because that can lead to an altercation, that can lead to loss of life that would take the current crisis and make it much, much worse," he said.

But enough about the NYPD.

 

[killerjimbag]

He may well have done. He doesn't, however, seem to be in the process of carrying out his job (he's a good walk away from the store in that case) or commuting to work, in which case his carry becomes illegal regardless of an FCC


In the video? Nope. Were people looting, yes, that doesn't however then mean that all laws go out the window? As such he had no reason to carry them on his trip over to the police, like it or not it falls outside of the state's regulations on licenced open carry by a security guard.


In which case maybe guns aren't for you.

It was not meant to be serious. You can't legally shoot people in Canada. States is a completely different story.
During rioting and looting I'm sure the police thought he was doing the right thing. Ever got off of a speeding ticket even though you broke the law.

 

[Scaff]

It was not meant to be serious. You can't legally shoot people in Canada. States is a completely different story.

I was always taught to be serious in every regard when it came to firearms, might be a side-effect of being taught to shoot by a former para.

During rioting and looting I'm sure the police thought he was doing the right thing.

Once again, what rioting and looting was occurring on the video? None. It was during an otherwise peaceful looking protest, as such a person who is not a member of law enforcement, armed and breaking the law in plain sight is far more likely to escalate a situation that reduce it. It's another example of the unfortunate lack of de-escalation training and experience that seems common among US law enforcement (and those that have the training and experience in the US know how well it works), ironically Chicago's forces are supposed to be among those that have been trained.

Ever got off of a speeding ticket even though you broke the law.

No, but that's a rather significant degree of false equivalence.

 

[strela]

Yes. That's literally how it works. Any claim without proof can be assumed untrue, and the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the proof. Otherwise anyone could make anything up. The burden of proof always rests on the one making the claim.

But I'm not making anything up. And everything we trow are promptly rejected. So I wonder how far do I have to go while the other party just sit and do nothing?

 

[DesertPenguin]

This was my the town next to mine yesterday. These people are disgusting. Protesting the protest... This is beyond the whitest of whitey whiteness

 

[PzR Slim]

Seems like the Police are convinced it is the protesters who are organising the brick drops.

 

[McLaren]

Just 1 more thing the legitimate protesters are going to have watch & police for themselves if they see them, sadly.