The 2020 George Floyd/BLM/Police Brutality Protests Discussion Thread

[Scaff]

... I think the prosecution over-charged to start with ... & then conducted an inept prosecution. Kyle Rittenhouse's crime was injecting himself & his gun into a situation where bad outcomes were very likely. But I don't think he did it out of malicious intent & had no desire or expectation that he would end up shooting anyone. That things spiralled out of control was predictable, but I guess not to a naive 17 year old. I think the prosecution should have opted for lesser charges to start with & presented a case that focused on those.

On to the Arbery case.

They should have changed the charges once the video of Rittenhouse threatening to get his AR and shoot someone was excluded. With that video, I think the initial charges made a lot of sense, the moment it was excluded (and the victims were no longer allowed to be called victims, a court failed to work out how to tell the time, the Judge slipped into 'I'm not racist, but.. mode, etc.) they were on a hiding to nothing.

You're not ... you're British.

I'm both and for a very long time felt more European than British.

 

[Biggles]

Try opening an atlas? This is like saying Canadians aren't North American.

Sigh. It was a joke ... an ironic aside on the situation post-Brexit. The irony was clearly indicated (I thought) by the inclusion of the emoji.

I'm both and for a very long time felt more European than British.

I'm a British citizen. My English stepfather was as European an Englishman as it was possible to be during his lifetime. He was an early post-graduate student at the College of Europe in Bruges established by the founding fathers of the European Union.

College of Europe - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He worked in Switzerland, Germany, Sweden & Finland & (unusually for an Englishman) spoke five languages. I went to the trouble of getting British citizenship for my Canadian-born children primarily so that they could be European. Their lack of legal status as Europeans is already having a significant impact on their lives.

It's off-topic ... but I can say that I don't think any Canadians would refer to themselves as "North-American", and Americans and Mexicans wouldn't refer to themselves as "North-American" either. How many British people do you think would describe themselves as "Europeans".

 

[UKMikey]

It's off-topic ... but I can say that I don't think any Canadians would refer to themselves as "North-American", and Americans and Mexicans wouldn't refer to themselves as "North-American" either. How many British people do you think would describe themselves as "Europeans".

Around 31% of us.

This chart shows which Europeans are the least likely to consider themselves European

Data showing which Europeans are more likely to identify themselves only by nationality.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Joey D]

Once again, the media lies and libs just lap it up.

While I don't disagree that some media outlets do not deliver the truth, it's not specifically a liberal thing. On the conservative side, people lap up misinformation just as much. Just look at anything COVID-related and how so many conservatives have ended up dead because they bought in the BS people like Tucker Carlson are shoveling.

And let's not even go down the path of the blatant lies that have been pushed again and again that the election was somehow stolen from Trump.

So maybe instead of doing the whole pot, kettle, black thing you actively go against misinformation in general instead of singling out liberals since you can't see past your own biases. Yes, I get people are going to generally consume the media they most agree with, and that's certainly a problem, but so it thinking it's completely one-sided.

 

[Biggles]

Around 31% of us.

This chart shows which Europeans are the least likely to consider themselves European

Data showing which Europeans are more likely to identify themselves only by nationality.

www.businessinsider.com

Fascinating. Sort of makes my (ironic) point, that the British are the least likely to think of themselves as "European" of all countries in Europe. Even more interesting are the other nationalities, with the Germans being the most likely to think of themselves as "European", perhaps expressing their desire to separate themselves from their nationalist, Nazi past.

 

[UKMikey]

Fascinating. Sort of makes my (ironic) point, that the British are the least likely to think of themselves as "European" of all countries in Europe. Even more interesting are the other nationalities, with the Germans being the most likely to think of themselves as "European", perhaps expressing their desire to separate themselves from their nationalist, Nazi past.

69% of us may not be bothered to open an atlas either, but that still leaves a sizeable minority. The last I heard, we weren't transported to Antarctica after we left the Union. @Scaff's viewpoint remains valid.

 

[Biggles]

@Scaff's viewpoint remains valid.

Yeah? Well my viewpoint is I'm glad I'm Canadian & not American ... even though I'm stuck with being North American. 😕

 

[Chrunch Houston]

I hope Rittenhouse was paying attention to the Nick Sandmann situation. He should sue the crap out of everyone that defamed him.

 

[Danoff]

Once again, the media lies and libs just lap it up.

What on Earth are you talking about? You think... what... that the media made Rittenhouse shoot some people? That the prosecutor and judge who heard the case were manipulated by CNN or something?

 

[TexRex]

I'd hope the first bit of help Sandmann provides is the advice that Rittenhouse submit to a deposition, which he didn't himself, because no defamation suit will see a courtroom without one and no insurance provider will agree to a meaningful settlement without one either.

Of course, if Rittenhouse has an actual defamation claim, he should know that opinion is a high enough bar to clear even without the actual malice standard established in NYT v. Sullivan that he'll likely have to meet because he's a public figure now due in no small part to right-wing media propping him up.

 

[05XR8]

I think it was GTA that influenced him. You know kids and their games…

 

[McLaren]

Didn't take long for some to turn once money became priority.

Lin Wood's telegram.

In addition to the above expenditures for Kyle, #FightBack has to pay back a $150,000 promissory note to actor Rick Schroder who loaned #FightBack that amount of money to meet the final $150K needed to reach the $2M cash bail required to free Kyle at the end of November 2020. Rick did not donate the money to #FightBack for Kyle. It was a loan. #FightBack had to sign a written promissory note and Rick made me personally guarantee the #FightBack note. I did so to help Kyle and #FightBack.

 

[Joey D]

Jesus that took less than 24 hours, I'm actually impressed. I can't wait to see the civil proceeding over this along with the other civil proceedings Rittenhouse is going to face. Being saddled with more debt than he can possibly comprehend is almost better justice than him going to prison.

Also, on a side note, what kind of monster spells Lisa with two i's?

 

[Chrunch Houston]

What on Earth are you talking about? You think... what... that the media made Rittenhouse shoot some people? That the prosecutor and judge who heard the case were manipulated by CNN or something?

I am talking about the story of Rittenhouse pushed by the media. I don't need to tell you the story because it is the story you already know and believe. And that story is crap.

 

[Joey D]

I am talking about the story of Rittenhouse pushed by the media. I don't need to tell you the story because it is the story you already know and believe. And that story is crap.

Aren't you the person who believes the story being pushed by the conservative media that the 2020 election was stolen, despite the overwhelming amount of evidence that shows it isn't? Perhaps if you're going to criticize someone for believing what you perceive as a false narrative, then you, yourself shouldn't buy into a false narrative either.

 

[Danoff]

I am talking about the story of Rittenhouse pushed by the media. I don't need to tell you the story because it is the story you already know and believe. And that story is crap.

What story is crap?

Keep in mind, I'm a gun owner. I own 6 guns, including what some would classify as an assault rifle. I practice regularly, and I'm in favor of the 2nd amendment and of the right to self defense. I'm the guy who argues on the side of the 2nd amendment in various threads on this site when people say that guns cannot reasonably be owned by individuals. Rittenhouse did not make that task easier.

What part of what I think or have said is fabricated in any way? Rittenhouse shot 3 people, two of them died. When you show up to a volatile situation with a gun and you shoot 3 people, killing two, you should be expected to have to go to court. That's just table stakes for that scenario, even if you end up acquitted, you should damned well expect it. CNN didn't make Rittenhouse shoot 3 people, and given that he did, he's gonna end up it court. No media conspiracy required.

So where's the manipulation? You act like having a trial was absurd, it was the bare minimum here.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

@Danoff, Who told you this lie?

from September 2020

What we do know, is that he's a nutjob that went to great lengths to put himself into a situation where he could do exactly what he did. That much we know.

My argument is not with you. It is with the media that made you think this way.

 

[Danoff]

@Danoff, Who told you this lie?

from September 2020

My argument is not with you. It is with the media that made you think this way.

Ooof... Rittenhouse made me think this way. Your argument is actually with me. He was recorded on video stating that he wanted to shoot people with his AR because he assumed they were stealing, I fail to see how you can reach any other conclusion.

You seem to have a very low opinion of my ability to think independently.

My opinion on this case, not that you asked, is that Rittenhouse was indeed not guilty of 1st degree murder. I think 1st degree reckless endangerment absolutely should have stuck. Prosecution didn't seek 2nd degree reckless endangerment because they didn't want to confuse the jury (arguably, the jury disregarded 1st degree reckless endangerment for that reason so I think this concern was founded), but Rittenhouse was clearly guilty of 2nd degree reckless endangerment as well.

I firmly believe that if the prosecution had lead with 1st degree reckless endangerment he would have been found guilty.

 

[Liquid]

What does this precedent of acting in self-defence say in relation to a bigger picture of domestic violence victims currently in prison for killing their abusers?

Legitimate curiosity.

 

[killerjimbag]

What does this precedent of acting in self-defence say in relation to a bigger picture of domestic violence victims currently in prison for killing their abusers?

Legitimate curiosity.

I guess it would apply if you shot/stabbed an abuser while they were in the attemp or act. But planning their death? Example while they are sleeping. I believe in Ontario Canada there are different degrees of murder. 1st degree 2nd degree, premeditated etc.
It is an interesting question though.

 

[Brett]

Keep in mind, I'm a gun owner. I own 6 guns, including what some would classify as an assault rifle. I practice regularly, and I'm in favor of the 2nd amendment and of the right to self defense. I'm the guy who argues on the side of the 2nd amendment in various threads on this site when people say that guns cannot reasonably be owned by individuals. Rittenhouse did not make that task easier.

That is the thing I do not understand about parts of the gun crowd celebrating Rittenhouse. He did gun owners no favors. What he did was really stupid. It is no way helps the image of gun owners. What he did could have legally been fine, but I really do not care one way or the other because the whole thing could have easily been prevented. He had no business being where he was. He played a stupid game, won a stupid prize, and we are worse off for it.

 

[UKMikey]

 

[Biggles]

That is the thing I do not understand about parts of the gun crowd celebrating Rittenhouse. He did gun owners no favors. What he did was really stupid. It is no way helps the image of gun owners. What he did could have legally been fine, but I really do not care one way or the other because the whole thing could have easily been prevented. He had no business being where he was. He played a stupid game, won a stupid prize, and we are worse off for it.

To the subset of gun owners celebrating Rittenhouse, he's a hero because he stood up to the BLM/Antifa scum who were rioting & doing property damage. They are itching to step up & confront America-hating, leftist protestors with their guns. It's a situation that could easily spin out of control.

 

[Danoff]

What does this precedent of acting in self-defence say in relation to a bigger picture of domestic violence victims currently in prison for killing their abusers?

Legitimate curiosity.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If someone's life is being threatened, they're allowed to act in self defense. If you can go to the police for help, though, you're supposed to do that instead. There are some defenses for battered women, but in principle they're not supposed to carry out extra-judicial sentencing.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Kyle Rittenhouse: ‘I support the BLM movement’

Kyle Rittenhouse, the teenager who was acquitted of murder last week after shooting and killing two people in Kenosha, Wis., during civil unrest there last year, said he supports the Blac…

thehill.com

 

[killerjimbag]

5 innocent people murdered. 40 injured.
Thompson Citizen: Police: Parade-crash suspect was in a domestic disturbance.

Chief: No evidence parade-crash suspect knew anyone on route

WAUKESHA, Wis.

www.thompsoncitizen.net

This clown was out on bail?



Funny how this guy got off in Florida,weren't people saying what if it was a black guy. Well here is your answer. Justice served.

Florida man acquitted of shooting at deputies in raid that led to death of girlfriend

VERO BEACH, Fla. (CBS12) — Jurors found Andrew Coffee IV not guilty on charges of felony murder and attempted murder of a law enforcement officer, on Friday, determining he acted in self-defense when firing at deputies during a SWAT raid in 2017. When the gunfire ended, Coffee's girlfriend...

weartv.com

 

[Imari]

Kyle Rittenhouse: ‘I support the BLM movement’

Kyle Rittenhouse, the teenager who was acquitted of murder last week after shooting and killing two people in Kenosha, Wis., during civil unrest there last year, said he supports the Blac…

thehill.com

Interesting. That's going to make it harder for people who want to use him as a symbol. The worst thing a poster child can have is a nuanced opinion.

 

[Liquid]

weren't people saying what if it was a black guy. Well here is your answer: [The incident in Wisconsin]

Do you think that everyone to the left of you thinks black people are immune from crime and can never be wrong?

Justice served.

Wow.

A comment dripping in sarcasm, strong implication from this that only blacks reoffend. Instead of questioning why the justice system or prison service released him, you jump straight to "Look what happens when black people are released from prison".

And I cannot be the only person interpreting this post the same way.

 

[Scaff]

Funny how this guy got off in Florida,weren't people saying what if it was a black guy. Well here is your answer. Justice served.

Florida man acquitted of shooting at deputies in raid that led to death of girlfriend

VERO BEACH, Fla. (CBS12) — Jurors found Andrew Coffee IV not guilty on charges of felony murder and attempted murder of a law enforcement officer, on Friday, determining he acted in self-defense when firing at deputies during a SWAT raid in 2017. When the gunfire ended, Coffee's girlfriend...

weartv.com

Now let's get the factual inaccuracy out of the way first, he didn't "get off", he was found guilty of possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, itself a felony charge that carries a 3 to 15-year sentence in Florida, and may increase to 30 years in this case

Then we have the material ways in which it differs from the Rittenhouse case. This defendant did not travel to insert himself into a situation, he was in his home. He had a more than reasonable defense of being asleep at the time (and these days, with mobile and computer activity that's easy enough to prove or disprove) given the raid was a 5am. However, the single biggest difference is that Florida is a 'stand your ground' state, and as such a person asleep, in their home, who has a reasonable belief the house is being broken into and that put lives in danger is within their legal rights to self-defense and to do so by firing first.

You then have the question of if the SWAT team identified themselves as they approached the house and arrested the target of the warrant (the defendant's father) "quickly" at the "front door" why they needed to throw flashbangs into the hall, smash the window to the defendant's bedroom and detonate a flashbang on the end of the smash and rake? Why when they are shot at do they then blind-fire into a room, shooting enough times to hit the woman then died ten times?

It's also worth noting the disparity that the officers were acquitted of any wrongdoing within four months, Coffee has been in jail since 2017, with his trial taking four years to happen.

So you want a target for your ire, aim it at Florida's inane 'stand your ground' law, which makes it almost impossible to reach any other verdict in cases likes this (and even without this - it's still the probable outcome).

So, in a nutshell, you just compared apples to oranges and lied about him 'getting off', it's almost as if something about the defendant biased your view?

Interesting. That's going to make it harder for people who want to use him as a symbol. The worst thing a poster child can have is a nuanced opinion.

As long as he doesn't do a 'Tim Pool'.

 

[killerjimbag]

Now let's get the factual inaccuracy out of the way first, he didn't "get off", he was found guilty of possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, itself a felony charge that carries a 3 to 15-year sentence in Florida, and may increase to 30 years in this case

Then we have the material ways in which it differs from the Rittenhouse case. This defendant did not travel to insert himself into a situation, he was in his home. He had a more than reasonable defense of being asleep at the time (and these days, with mobile and computer activity that's easy enough to prove or disprove) given the raid was a 5am. However, the single biggest difference is that Florida is a 'stand your ground' state, and as such a person asleep, in their home, who has a reasonable belief the house is being broken into and that put lives in danger is within their legal rights to self-defense and to do so by firing first.

You then have the question of if the SWAT team identified themselves as they approached the house and arrested the target of the warrant (the defendant's father) "quickly" at the "front door" why they needed to throw flashbangs into the hall, smash the window to the defendant's bedroom and detonate a flashbang on the end of the smash and rake? Why when they are shot at do they then blind-fire into a room, shooting enough times to hit the woman then died ten times?

It's also worth noting the disparity that the officers were acquitted of any wrongdoing within four months, Coffee has been in jail since 2017, with his trial taking four years to happen.

So you want a target for your ire, aim it at Florida's inane 'stand your ground' law, which makes it almost impossible to reach any other verdict in cases likes this (and even without this - it's still the probable outcome).

So, in a nutshell, you just compared apples to oranges and lied about him 'getting off', it's almost as if something about the defendant biased your view?

As long as he doesn't do a 'Tim Pool'.

I'm not lying about him getting off.Clearly he got off and should have got off. I also hope he sues the city, county and State.Again you putting words into people's comments. Enough of you assuming what you think people are thinking Scaff. Your opinion is your opinion,you don't speak or type for me. I'd really appreciate if you would stop assuming what I'm thinking . I actually read the articles Scaff. Perhaps you thought this clown was out on bail had to do with the Florida case. Again your assumption was wrong. So I spaced it our for you.That was for the murderer in Wisconsin that mowed down 60 people.Perhaps the justice system needs an overhaul in the US. There is no way he should have been out on $1000 bail. That is a joke.