The GTP Unofficial 2020 US Elections Thread

[mustafur]

The way I look at it a Moderate candidate generally has the most appeal to corporate donors, that isn't really something you want from a candidate.

The only Moderate(I guess you can say) that has no record of being bought is Beto O'Rourke, that looks like running in the election.

 

[Sanji Himura]

There are no "communists" running for the Democratic nomination - not even close. "Democratic socialists" - maybe. You've got to understand that in Europe there have been, for decades, a whole smorgasbord of left of centre parties who are not communist.

You have at least one, Bernie Sanders...

Sources:
https://nypost.com/2016/01/16/dont-be-fooled-by-bernie-sanders-hes-a-diehard-communist/

And before you argue that is Rupert Murdock talking, allow Bernie Sanders speak for himself:

http://www.independentsentinel.com/is-bernie-sanders-a-communist-we-answer-that-here/ (I want to point out that the FIRST video is the evidence here, NOT the rest of the article)

The main policy idea being advocated by pretty much all the Democratic candidates is universal health care.

That is no secret.

This is something that has been adopted (a long time ago) by all other western countries & has been kept in place by all political parties - from the centre left to the centre right.

EXCEPT the Republican Party. They support Tort reform, and I do too except in the most extreme of circumstances.

 

[Mr Tree]

all and out socialist/Communist.

What do you mean with all out socialist/commie?

People use the word socialist/social democrat interchangably.

ou have at least one, Bernie Sanders...

Sources:
https://nypost.com/2016/01/16/dont-be-fooled-by-bernie-sanders-hes-a-diehard-communist/

All I see is claims of affiliations he had. When they write about the policies he wants all I see is democratic socialism, which is not socialism nor is it communism.

So again what is socialism to you? What is communism you?

 

[mustafur]

Like I have been saying for too long already Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy are vastly different.

Bernie says he is a Democratic socialist then Highlights Countries with Social Democracy such as the Scandinavian countries, they are Capitalist as the vast majority of the means of production is Privately owned, a Democratic Socialist country would be Cuba, Who elect leaders for there region and those elected leaders control the means of production.

So essentially:
Democratic Socialism = Socialism Lite(Or more)
Social Democracy = Capitalism Lite

I would say Most Western Countries Would fit under the Social Democracy Banner in varying degrees(Most offer Public Healthcare etc) with the Scandinavian model being the Strongest left in that regard(As they offer Full education benefits etc).

 

[Mr Tree]

Like I have been saying for too long already Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy are vastly different.

Bernie says he is a Democratic socialist then Highlights Countries with Social Democracy such as the Scandinavian countries, they are Capitalist as the vast majority of the means of production is Privately owned, a Democratic Socialist country would be Cuba, Who elect leaders for there region and those elected leaders control the means of production.

So essentially:
Democratic Socialism = Socialism Lite(Or more)
Social Democracy = Capitalism Lite

Agreed but let's be honnest, as no one is calling for democratic socialism in policy.
And bernie mixes the 2 up it would just be easier for now to accept the colloqial defenition of democratic socialism would now be social democracy. So if that wasn't clear in my post I'm sorry.

On the other hand does any definition realy matter? Obama seems to have been called a commie/socialist so many times. If Obama was my choice of socialism here I'd just stick up my nose and walk away.
Merica doesn't care for the defenitions it's just important to lump in all that's left of you in with the commies.

 

[mustafur]

Well America is the land of Sound bites. He mixed it up at the start(even corrected by Denmark) but has just gone with it, It's a big difference in real policy but it will create an issue when people(most likely the MSM media) say well look at Cuba they are a democratic Socialist country, hardly a model of good living conditions.

Regardless he will still be called a communist so it probably isn't going to effect his chances any different than to what it is now.

 

[Sanji Himura]

All I see is claims of affiliations he had. When they write about the policies he wants all I see is democratic socialism, which is not socialism nor is it communism.

So again what is socialism to you? What is communism you?

You took half of my argument and twisted it. I warned Biggles not to do the same thing. Watch the FIRST video in the second link and then try to make that argument again.

 

[Mr Tree]

You took half of my argument and twisted it. I warned Biggles not to do the same thing. Watch the FIRST video in the second link and then try to make that argument again.

I will later tonight but could you answer me what was the purpose of the first link?

Also could you answer what you understand to be communism/socialism as to not start a conversation based on a misunderstanding.

Edit: I'm also pretty sure what you describe as socialism/communism is not what it is so cpuld you answer what you understand that these words mean. I'll be as kind to watch your vid.

 

[Touring Mars]

If TV has taught me anything it's that the next elected POTUS will be Lisa Simpson.

That said, whoever replaces Mike Pence next year will have a difficult job on their hands.

 

[Sanji Himura]

I will later tonight but could you answer me what was the purpose of the first link?

Also could you answer what you understand to be communism/socialism as to not start a conversation based on a misunderstanding.

Edit: I'm also pretty sure what you describe as socialism/communism is not what it is so cpuld you answer what you understand that these words mean. I'll be as kind to watch your vid.

The purpose of the first link was to show that Sanders is a way left in his thinking according to the right-leaning media. It would make the next left-leaning candidate moderate in his thinking.

I polarize Socialism, Communism (true Marxism) and Capitalism (since that is technically what we are), into a spectrum. Communism and Capitalism on the extremes with socialism somewhere in the middle. I then place the candidates into that spectrum. Bernie Sanders was so extreme into communism, that he actually succeeded in changing the Democrat Party's thinking. He actually took credit for it in the second video of the second link (which was an MSNBC interview).

I would dare argue that Trump is no pure capitalist turkey either, but at least he actually cares about our economy enough to at least maintain the status quo.

 

[huskeR32]

Biden is 76 now. There is no way that he can sustain a national campaign on his own.

But 74-year-old Trump will be able to? What exactly happens between 74 and 78 that prevents a person from campaigning?

 

[mustafur]

The purpose of the first link was to show that Sanders is a way left in his thinking according to the right-leaning media. It would make the next left-leaning candidate moderate in his thinking.

I polarize Socialism, Communism (true Marxism) and Capitalism (since that is technically what we are), into a spectrum. Communism and Capitalism on the extremes with socialism somewhere in the middle. I then place the candidates into that spectrum. Bernie Sanders was so extreme into communism, that he actually succeeded in changing the Democrat Party's thinking. He actually took credit for it in the second video of the second link (which was an MSNBC interview).

I would dare argue that Trump is no pure capitalist turkey either, but at least he actually cares about our economy enough to at least maintain the status quo.

But Communism is Socialism, Socialism is the opposite blanket term to Capitalism.

 

[Dotini]

But Communism is Socialism, Socialism is the opposite blanket term to Capitalism.

I see communism as the authoritarian extreme of socialism, and fascism as the authoritarian extreme of capitalism.

 

[Biggles]

The purpose of the first link was to show that Sanders is a way left in his thinking according to the right-leaning media.

So the evidence that Sanders is a communist is that the New York Post says he is? The New York Post?

And before you argue that is Rupert Murdock talking, allow Bernie Sanders speak for himself:

http://www.independentsentinel.com/is-bernie-sanders-a-communist-we-answer-that-here/ (I want to point out that the FIRST video is the evidence here, NOT the rest of the article.

The first video? Sanders talking about the Sandinista government? He doesn't talk about communism at all. He does talk about US imperialism in Latin America & its history of supporting brutal right wing dictatorships. I would agree with very word he says in the clip.

 

[mustafur]

It's Amazing how the Unexpected Warhawks come out of the Shadows when faced with someone who is Anti-War, every single interview Tulsi has she is faced with the exact same questions they must be all reading from the same cards.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I see communism as the authoritarian extreme of socialism, and fascism as the authoritarian extreme of capitalism.

Not to nit-pick, but aren't authoritarianism and capitalism antithetical in a way that communism and socialism are not? What I mean is that if you have authoritarianism, then that means that you definitely don't have capitalism.

I do think that you can have capitalism implode in on itself and turn into authoritarianism, kind of like a black hole. Imagine a single capitalist entity (let's just say Amazon for the sake of reasonable example) that grows so large that it effectively becomes the entire economy. At that point, you don't have capitalism anymore, you have complete monopolistic corporatism....which is basically authoritarianism from an economic sense. At that point the distinction between what is 'private' and what is 'the state' becomes almost irrelevant.

 

[Novalee]

Im not sure how Trumps team thinks this is a good idea before a election year .


https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/18/politics/donald-trump-twitter-sunday/index.html


Maybe Trump thinks his base is large enough ? But if florida goes blue and possible a few other swing states ,then his chances are slim.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Im not sure how Trumps team thinks this is a good idea before a election year .


https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/18/politics/donald-trump-twitter-sunday/index.html


Maybe Trump thinks his base is large enough ? But if florida goes blue and possible a few other swing states ,then his chances are slim.

I object to the "team" and the "think".

 

[Dotini]

Not to nit-pick, but aren't authoritarianism and capitalism antithetical in a way that communism and socialism are not? What I mean is that if you have authoritarianism, then that means that you definitely don't have capitalism.

I do think that you can have capitalism implode in on itself and turn into authoritarianism, kind of like a black hole. Imagine a single capitalist entity (let's just say Amazon for the sake of reasonable example) that grows so large that it effectively becomes the entire economy. At that point, you don't have capitalism anymore, you have complete monopolistic corporatism....which is basically authoritarianism from an economic sense. At that point the distinction between what is 'private' and what is 'the state' becomes almost irrelevant.

Mussolini was an authoritarian fascist if ever there was one. Here are his own words:

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”
― Benito Mussolini

From wiki:
Capitalism is an economic system that recognizes individual rights while corporatism is a political and economic system that seeks social justice and equality among individuals. ... Both capitalism and corporatism are still in use today.

Corporatist ideas have been expressed since Ancient Greek and Roman societies, with integration into Catholic social teaching and Christian democracy political parties. They have been paired by various advocates and implemented in various societies with a wide variety of political systems, including authoritarianism, absolutism, fascism, liberalism and socialism.[4]

Corporatism may also refer to economic tripartism involving negotiations between labour and business interest groups and the government to establish economic policy.[5] This is sometimes also referred to as neo-corporatism and is associated with social democracy.[6]

Social democracy is a political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democraticpolity and a capitalist economy

 

[Liquid]

I know we like to argue the toss about what is and isn't a particular ideology but the fact is, a dictator is going to claim whatever they want irrespective of whether it meets a dictionary definition or is compliant with an established precedent; they will say that whatever they're doing is ideology X and none of you can demonstrate otherwise.

Take the use of People's Republic or Democratic Republic in some countries' full names as an example. Or the always-hilarious argument when people latch on to the "socialism" part of National Socialism.

 

[mustafur]

Looks like Beto is the DNC corporate backed candidate, randomly smashes Bernie's day 1 Fundraising Record but won't disclose where the money came from or what the average donor contribution is.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...urke-2020-campaign-fundraising-first-24-hours

 

[TenEightyOne]

won't disclose where the money came from

Does he have to? I wouldn't want to donate if my details would be made public.

 

[mustafur]

Does he have to? I wouldn't want to donate if my details would be made public.

That never gets released, just the number of people that donated, and the regions it's from, which you can then work out the average donation pretty easily.

 

[TenEightyOne]

That never gets released, just the number of people that donated, and the regions it's from, which you can then work out the average donation pretty easily.

Understood. So what did you mean by "he won't disclose where the money came from"?

 

[mustafur]

Understood. So what did you mean by "he won't disclose where the money came from"?

How did you understand it then?

There is a requirement by the media to have X amount of money coming from something around 30 states to be eligible.

Usually how this gets skirted by corporate backers is they get employees to do maximum donations with corporate money from every state they operate in. Basically money laundering.

 

[TenEightyOne]

There is a requirement by the media to have X amount of money coming from something around 30 states to be eligible.

Your link said that he'd shown the money had come from all 50 states. I took it that you were implying he was doing something nefarious. Do you think he is?

 

[mustafur]

Your link said that he'd shown the money had come from all 50 states. I took it that you were implying he was doing something nefarious. Do you think he is?

Claimed* he didn't show anything, apart from totals, hard to work out what any of that means without the full details.

 

[Dotini]

...doing something nefarious.

Quite honestly, I believe 100% all those who present themselves as candidates for the presidency should be regarded with the very greatest of skepticism. All very likely will have special interests, partisanships, "true beliefs" and axes to grind. To be a political human today is almost axiomatically to be corrupt and prideful, subject to the seductive lure of power and glory. Give me a simple country doctor like Ron Paul, whose worst fault may have been a gold fetish.

 

[mustafur]

Quite honestly, I believe 100% all those who present themselves as candidates for the presidency should be regarded with the very greatest of skepticism. All very likely will have special interests, partisanships, "true beliefs" and axes to grind. To be a political human today is almost axiomatically to be corrupt and prideful, subject to the seductive lure of power and glory. Give me a simple country doctor like Ron Paul, whose worst fault may have been a gold fetish.

Very much, US hasn't got funding reform like other Western powers so I would be very skeptical of all people running for office even those that claim they are getting donations from "the people".

 

[McLaren]

Biden is planning to a 2020 bid, but will need a lot support in donations.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/joe-biden-tells-supporters-he-plans-2020-bid-11553033380

There's been a strong amount of Obama supporters wanting him to run (many with the view that Obama could be his VP). Does Biden running automatically put him at a higher chance of winning than the rest?