The New King of Racers? FM4
- Thread starter JoeMaPampang
- 613 comments
- 41,755 views
- 563
Not exactly what I'll be spending most of my time with, but it sure is a neat addition. I'm just glad they've provided ways to use it without Kinect. I usually hate stuff like that. Just like the Wii, just not my cup of tea. Aside from head tracking, that is
This. But i am diggin headtracking and Voice command is really getting slept on.
Imagine you telling Kinect: "...Kinect, Go to Garage, Select Bugatti Eb110 SS, Go to Mugello, Test drive..."
- 2,729
- Sele1981
I´ll try to give FM3 over and over a chance but damn alone the Nordschleife is so worse! It feels completely like an different fantasy track or something... You can pass most corners with full speed, even this technical part after the karussell...
Thy physics are also worse, you can drive like a pork, full throttle, and the physics forgive you every mistake...
I really hope FM4 is a big improvement in important things of racing... Autovista is a nice gimmick but it is a total waste if the most important things, the racing tracks, are so worse... Also Suzuka is a complete different track...
I know some FM3 kids in some German forums who don´t care but for real racing, the original circuits and the physics are the most important thing for an game... But if you say this in an German forum, you get kicked because they cant accept the truth
Thy physics are also worse, you can drive like a pork, full throttle, and the physics forgive you every mistake...
I really hope FM4 is a big improvement in important things of racing... Autovista is a nice gimmick but it is a total waste if the most important things, the racing tracks, are so worse... Also Suzuka is a complete different track...
I know some FM3 kids in some German forums who don´t care but for real racing, the original circuits and the physics are the most important thing for an game... But if you say this in an German forum, you get kicked because they cant accept the truth
- 9,295
- Duisburg
This I agree with. I absolutely hope they remodelled the track for FM4. It's my favourite track, but FM3's version sucked. Just like the one in Shift 2
This, though, I think is false. While FM3's physics are a little too forgiving, I think it's not anywhere near as bad as you make it out to be. I guess it depends on what you compare the game to... GT5, for example, seems to be overly punishing at times. A lot of people, I think, automatically assume that more difficult equals more realistic, which I don't agree with.
To be quite honest, I'd asume that a lot of people would rate FM3's physics higher if the visual presentation wasn't as bland as it is (no camera shaking, for example). Stuff like that can make the whole expeerience seem a lot more wild and 'risky' than it actually is.
- 4,038
- United States
- 5,398
- Buenos Aires
Having GT5 on my PS3, I can safely say GT5 doesn't sound like what Sele1981 is describing. For example, driving a RUF "Yellowbird", I was sliding all over the place. Driving full throttle? Sure, if I want to end spinning at each curve. Drive like a pork? Only with the low powered cars. Another example, driving the Elise 111R on the Special Events section of GT5. I tried braking late to pass the Elise in front of me, only to start spinning as I was turning into the corner. That certainly didn't happen in GT4, and certainly GT5 didn't forgive my mistake.
- 415
- GTP_infamousDee
- 2,729
- Sele1981
This I agree with. I absolutely hope they remodelled the track for FM4. It's my favourite track, but FM3's version sucked. Just like the one in Shift 2
This, though, I think is false. While FM3's physics are a little too forgiving, I think it's not anywhere near as bad as you make it out to be. I guess it depends on what you compare the game to... GT5, for example, seems to be overly punishing at times. A lot of people, I think, automatically assume that more difficult equals more realistic, which I don't agree with.
To be quite honest, I'd asume that a lot of people would rate FM3's physics higher if the visual presentation wasn't as bland as it is (no camera shaking, for example). Stuff like that can make the whole expeerience seem a lot more wild and 'risky' than it actually is.
Nice, finally somebody who can discuss normal and accept my oppinion 👍
Ok maybe the physics thing, I can discuss that. When I moved from GTR2 and rFactor to GT5P, I felt home. The physics were nearly the same! Then they improved them with GT5...
Ok I can´t tell how an F40 really feels... But in GT5, it´s hard to keep that beast on the track (all driving aids off)... In FM3 I can drive like an idiot and nothing happens... No spin, nothing... I get off the track,left wheel on gras, nothing...
But ok there are cars in FM3 that are also hard to drive but mostly the R3 cars... But there is hope for FM4... Till then I keep on playing GT5...
- 4,038
- United States
I wish that was the case, then I would indeed be a little more forgiving on the game. Most recently noticeable is how the 2010 Camaro SS sticks to the road like glue, in and out of turns. IRL, when I have taken it out at Road America, getting on it at the wrong time was bringing the back end out, requiring drift like maneuvers to get it back inline. However, in GT 5, dumping the throttle let the car pull out of turns like it was a GTR, solid and connected.
I don't expect any of these console sims to be perfect, but I hope they do improve that in GT6.
- 4,038
- United States
I think that is a big part of it. I think they both use different algorithmic inputs.
- 9,295
- Duisburg
Back when GT5
hadn't had the firs spec update (when I actually played it), there was a discussion going on on another forum whether the game was realistic or not. The one think that stuck in my mind was when someone explained the following:In the game, a normal road car, like a 350Z or 370Z, is agressive, feels powerful and actually relative loose. And while that is what most people would consider reaistic, it is a road car after all. And, like most road cars, it's probably not engineered to kill you at the sight of a corner or a slight push on the accelerator.
This, of course, isn't the case with GT5 anymore, at least not to the same eextend; all I'm saying is: More difficult doesn't equal a more realistic driving experience.
This is exactly what I'm talking about, you're using GT5 as the yard stick that Forza has to compare to. If GT5 was 100% correct and accurate, that'd be perfectly fine, but I doubt that that's the case.
Don't get me wrong, I actually agree that FM3 is a little too forgiving on offers too much grip; I just don't now what it should actually be like.
Now, regarding the physics in FM3, I think there are a few reasons why the game feels too forgiving, at times, at least.
1) Tyre physics. It always felt like the tyres offered a bit mire grip than they should, lost the grip too late and too slowly/gently and regained it too early and too fast, which, overall, made it easier to catch a car from under- or oversteer. This also means that you're likely to be abble to achieve slightly higher cornering speeds than what you're supposed to.
2) The permanent steering aid. While I think that this had only very, very little impact on the whole matter, it still impacted it - it assisted here and there, after all.
3) The track design. The 'Ring is the best example, with its widening: You'd expect to be punished for taking a corner at full throttle on the real track, but due to the widening, you can actually push much further than you could if the track was modelles precisely after the real thing.
And this leads me to my fourth and last point:
4) Default car setups. Most cars in MF3 were, when stock, pretty stable, understeery and all around 'safe'. Which is, as mentioned above, pretty okay for most road cars, as that's how they're usually engineered to be. Once you started tuning them, that began to disappear quite a bit. The best clue for this is what you said yourself: Most of the race cars are not like that, not even with their default setups.
With all that said, T10 has reworked the tyre physics entirely with the help of Pirelli, so this does bode well for 1). Issue 2) has also been resolved, as the steering aid can now be turned off. Issues 3) and 4) remain to be seen, but I guess that T10 won't put too much effort in actually reworking the default setups. While there are some cars that they're pretty messed up for, they work decently on average. However, I sure as hell hope they get cracking on 4). Loads of people complained about FM3's rendition of the 'Ring, and rightfully so...
- 9,295
- Duisburg
That's why I'm of the opinion that a lot of the whole issue comes from the default setups of the cars - and can be easily fixed.
- 2,110
- Russia
And it's also a question of interpretation of the data and how it transfers to the controls.
- 9,295
- Duisburg
Which also begs the question how versatile the physics system is. A system that can make the car behave like it should just from raw real life data is always going to be a lot more complex than a system that relies on specific parameters, to manually make the car handle like it would be expected to.
- 2,110
- Russia
- 9,295
- Duisburg
Possible? Yes. Probable? No. It would likely require way too much processing power to be run on a console, even on a PC. I do think, so, that there are some physics engine that need less pre-interpreted data than others.
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,063
- N Ireland
Far,far,far,far,far too much thought is put on car handling or realism.
First person shooting games don't offer realistic character movements or peripheral viewing do they yet are incredibly popular. Yes gameplay mechanics are important as are pushing the visuals and capturing the atmosphere. However how much has the FPS changed in character movement towards replicating a real person since Wolfenstein?
Likewise a racing game will also have limits but what happened to the importance of games being fun, challenging and entertaining? Sure we all want something that represents the real thing but can the real thing detract from the fun if things like punctures, reliability, damage, and DNF's were more common in games?
First person shooting games don't offer realistic character movements or peripheral viewing do they yet are incredibly popular. Yes gameplay mechanics are important as are pushing the visuals and capturing the atmosphere. However how much has the FPS changed in character movement towards replicating a real person since Wolfenstein?
Likewise a racing game will also have limits but what happened to the importance of games being fun, challenging and entertaining? Sure we all want something that represents the real thing but can the real thing detract from the fun if things like punctures, reliability, damage, and DNF's were more common in games?
Last edited:
- 9,295
- Duisburg
I agree with this, somewhat. As a game, racing sims will always have to be fun, and stuff that takes you out of the race without making any kind of mistake whatsoever just isn't fun to 99.9% of people, and I doubt a lot of developers will cater towards those 0.1% that do want that.
However, there are some parts where realism just adds to the game; qualifying, tyre wear, fuel consumption, pit stops and pitstop strategies, damage that is caused by crashed and so on - all of that will reward or punish you for your actions, which I think is exactly what a good game should do.
Also, while I get more fun from games that are more realistic, the most realistic game isn't necessarily the most fun. To me, at least. And, personally, I'll play whatever eentertains me the most, not the most realistic game
- 593
- Lohmar, Germany
- jabofu
- DAG JaboFu
I think Mr Latte means a new Project Gotham game. They had the perfect mix between arcade and simulation. I like games like Forza and GT more, but it was really good for everyone. That doesnt mean that a none hardcore racer cant enjoy GT/FM.
I believe they killed the franchise because of Forza. Maybe a launch title for XBOX 720?
But the market is not dead if you want fun racing. Burnout, Driver, NFS, and more. PGR would be the best solution in my eyes.
I believe they killed the franchise because of Forza. Maybe a launch title for XBOX 720?
But the market is not dead if you want fun racing. Burnout, Driver, NFS, and more. PGR would be the best solution in my eyes.
- 9,295
- Duisburg
Wasn't there a rumour that T10 would be working on a new PGR?
And, yeah, it would probably cut into Forza's sales a bit, so they probably made sure to not throw a new PGR title out there when it could probably hurt Forza's sales.
I could see a new PGR being released a year after Forza, exactly inbetween two Forza games...
And, yeah, it would probably cut into Forza's sales a bit, so they probably made sure to not throw a new PGR title out there when it could probably hurt Forza's sales.
I could see a new PGR being released a year after Forza, exactly inbetween two Forza games...
- 4,038
- United States
- 2,110
- Russia
They must "cheat" for make the game to run on console you mean
I really thing GT has some sort of the system. Kaz talks about that many times. That's why it took so many time. I think on PS4 we will see full shine of this system and graphics. (ok - I hope that it's going like this)
Last edited:
- 9,295
- Duisburg
They must "cheat" for make the game to run on console you mean
I really thing GT has some sort of the system. Kaz talks about that many times. That's why it took so many time. I think on PS4 we will see full shine of this system and graphics. (ok - I hope that it's going like this)
What I mean is that you could probably create a system that tries to incorporate as much raw real life data as possibe. Most physics systems could, for example, use the the real weight to calculate what the car would do.
But, in different areas, it's different. Tyres, for example. Insteead of calculating the actual fricting the tyre would create on a given surface, depending on it's profile, compound, amount of wear and so on, it'll just have a friction coefficient that's increased or decreased by a set amount depending on a given situation.
So, you get a tyre dirty: -30% grip, for example. It's not actually calculated as a result of the action that took place, but because an event triggerend a previously set value to be taken into account.
Now, Slightly Mad Studios claim to use the most sophisticated and advanced physics engine - and while the result might not be the best, I do think that that's true. And, personally, I highly doubt that even that game incorporates that much raw real life data.
- 1,214
I thought he referring to if sims/game become too realisitc then it would take away from the fun. Games like GT5 and Forza 3 has to be more forgiving than a real car or the sim would be a lot harder than real life because of the lack of information. For example IRL your brain maps an 3d image of the world around you as well as the g-forces felt on your body.
Even the most hardcore sims has some "gamey" elements. For example a button to automatically set your car back on the track. IRL getting your car out of a sand pit is not fun.
Similar threads
