U.S. and Allies strike Syria’s chemical weapons program

Just in case if OPCW wants to investigate while being in that place (unlike the French), Russia waits the experts to arrive in Douma and is ready to provide them vehicles and security.

And the Western version of that story is that the OPCW isn't allowed near the gassed site. Stop believing what's being said in Russian, just as you have the question the Western media outlets.

Edit,

It just popped up in the news ticker, Russia opens the doors for the experts on Wednesday.
According to Russia there was no gas attack, no evidence or bodies were found. And the US and UK still claim the opposite.

Both sides say, trust us.

It doesn't work in Russia's favour of course that they are denying the experts immediate access. Plenty of time to get rid of the evidence, if it's there of course, and the bodies.
 
So you're saying that we can't believe anyone. If we can't believe anyone then there is only one solution, make your best guess at what you think is true and then make up your own mind.

What I know to be true :-

Syria has been occupied by a terrorist army for many years.

The Syrian army helped by the Russians have managed to reduce this army substantially almost to the point of extinction.

The US, France and UK recently mounted a bombardment, but managed to avoid damaging too much.

---------------------------------------------------

Have I got it wrong, maybe May and Trump have played a masterstroke?

Maybe they think, as I do, that keeping Assad in charge is the best thing after all.
 
It is possible to put some trust in the word of autonomous institutions like the OPCW. Politicians and their native news outlets, no, not so much.

Just look at the Skripal case. May and her toyboy Johnson were quick to blame Russia because of evidence, and then the actual evidence experts went to investigate, and all of the sudden there was no clear evidence that Russia did it. There's plenty of reasonable doubt, but that doesn't work as actual evidence. And the same happens now. But with more players.
 
Politicians and their native news outlets, no, not so much.

Now wait just a minute... as a red blooded American (I'm still not sure what that means), I am offended at the insinuation that our president and news media outlets are not 100% unquestionably truthful at all times!

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It doesn't work in Russia's favour of course that they are denying the experts immediate access. Plenty of time to get rid of the evidence, if it's there of course, and the bodies.
It takes some time to ensure security, you know. To make sure there are no more Jaysh al-Islam's moderate rebels left in the area and remove all of the bombs left by them.

On April 11th, reportedly, a serviceman of the Russian military police was lethally injured by an improvised explosive device in Douma. That's only what we know. How many SAA soldiers or civilians were killed by those - we don't.
 
To make sure there are no more Jaysh al-Islam's moderate rebels left in the area and remove all of the bombs left by them.

If the OPCW wants to go and investigate a hot spot like Syria, of which they know is full of exploding stuff, let them. They know the risk. They can only blame themselves if the Order of Suicidal Potatoes or any of the other freedom fighters attack them.
 
As far as making a decoy missile, it is rather simple to have a dummy warhead attached to a missile and send it on its way. Even Hideo Kojima found it rather simple.

It's not that it would be difficult, I'm questioning whether it would be worthwhile making a decoy when the cost of the warhead seems like it would be fairly negligible compared to the complex missile structure needed. HE isn't really that expensive. If the decoy isn't cheaper than the missile then you might as well send a whole missile.
 
It's not that it would be difficult, I'm questioning whether it would be worthwhile making a decoy when the cost of the warhead seems like it would be fairly negligible compared to the complex missile structure needed. HE isn't really that expensive. If the decoy isn't cheaper than the missile then you might as well send a whole missile.

Agreed... explosives don't cost that much compared to guidance and control surfaces.
 
Agreed... explosives don't cost that much compared to guidance and control surfaces.

That's what I said a few pages ago: I'm not an expert, but ... what's the point in sending "decoys" using extremely expensive guided missiles? If you're flying a plane over the area it's easy to drop decoys - bombs, missiles, tin foil, whatever. The Tomahawks apparently cost 1 million each, I doubt the explosives make up much of that cost. The cost of sending 100 + Tomahawks is substantial (not, of course, limited to the actual cost of the missiles). What does it actually accomplish? It's not really clear. However, it's all very helpful to Raytheon, the employees of Raytheon, the economy of the state the Raytheon facility is located in & the politicians representing that state.
 
That's what I said a few pages ago: I'm not an expert, but ... what's the point in sending "decoys" using extremely expensive guided missiles? If you're flying a plane over the area it's easy to drop decoys - bombs, missiles, tin foil, whatever. The Tomahawks apparently cost 1 million each, I doubt the explosives make up much of that cost. The cost of sending 100 + Tomahawks is substantial (not, of course, limited to the actual cost of the missiles). What does it actually accomplish? It's not really clear. However, it's all very helpful to Raytheon, the employees of Raytheon, the economy of the state the Raytheon facility is located in & the politicians representing that state.

Yea, and there are a few added benefits of making them all explosive... you don't have to figure out which ones are which when you're launching. Because you'd feel pretty dumb if you fired off 10 missiles and all of them were decoys. And you don't have to pay costs of separate manufacturing of decoys, and separate testing of decoys, and making sure you stock the appropriate amount of each... and training people to load the correct amount of each, and drilling them on that training to make sure they get it right. And then what happens if you shoot 10 and 5 get knocked down, but one of the 5 was not a decoy... so nothing blows up. Well now you've just missed the target (effectively) because you were too stingy to pay for the explosives?

No, none of it makes sense.


Edit:

OTOH! If all 10 of them are armed and none get knocked down... you're gonna blow it up 10 times!
 
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New missile attack.
Syrian SAMs shot some missiles (reportedly, launched by Israel) over Homs province.
 
It's not that it would be difficult, I'm questioning whether it would be worthwhile making a decoy when the cost of the warhead seems like it would be fairly negligible compared to the complex missile structure needed. HE isn't really that expensive. If the decoy isn't cheaper than the missile then you might as well send a whole missile.
Is it cheaper? We don't actually know.

Is it practical? Signs point to no.

Though I do concede that the two could be hand in hand.
 
If you're flying a plane over the area it's easy to drop decoys - bombs, missiles, tin foil, whatever.

And if you're not flying a plane over an area it's not easy to drop decoys, bombs, tinfoil, or whatever. You need to give those things range and guidance to bring them in with the cruise missiles that you're supposed to be protecting.

I should point out that cruise missiles are used because they can be fired from a significant distance. The whole point of them is that you don't have to fly a plane over the area you want to target, you can fire from a long way away. Like outside of the borders of the country you're targeting. Which is why it gets a bit complicated if you want them surrounded by decoys going in, you have to give those decoys a lot of the same tech as cruise missiles just to get them into the same general area as the AA that's going to be hitting them.
 
And if you're not flying a plane over an area it's not easy to drop decoys, bombs, tinfoil, or whatever. You need to give those things range and guidance to bring them in with the cruise missiles that you're supposed to be protecting.

I should point out that cruise missiles are used because they can be fired from a significant distance. The whole point of them is that you don't have to fly a plane over the area you want to target, you can fire from a long way away. Like outside of the borders of the country you're targeting. Which is why it gets a bit complicated if you want them surrounded by decoys going in, you have to give those decoys a lot of the same tech as cruise missiles just to get them into the same general area as the AA that's going to be hitting them.

Exactly.

The Pentagon really should be consulting with GTPlanet's ballistics & weapons guidance specialists before taking any action.

Have I got it wrong, maybe May and Trump have played a masterstroke?

Maybe they think, as I do, that keeping Assad in charge is the best thing after all.

IMO the reality is that there really isn't a "best thing". The Iraq debacle & the subsequent mess in Libya, Syria, Yemen, Egypt, not to mention Afghanistan & elsewhere has made it painfully clear that there are no obvious strategies to pursue in the Middle East.
 
IMO the reality is that there really isn't a "best thing". The Iraq debacle & the subsequent mess in Libya, Syria, Yemen, Egypt, not to mention Afghanistan & elsewhere has made it painfully clear that there are no obvious strategies to pursue in the Middle East.

Perhaps only 3% of our population, libertarians, would consider nonintervention an obvious strategy.
 
That's what I said a few pages ago: I'm not an expert, but ... what's the point in sending "decoys" using extremely expensive guided missiles? If you're flying a plane over the area it's easy to drop decoys - bombs, missiles, tin foil, whatever. The Tomahawks apparently cost 1 million each, I doubt the explosives make up much of that cost. The cost of sending 100 + Tomahawks is substantial (not, of course, limited to the actual cost of the missiles). What does it actually accomplish? It's not really clear. However, it's all very helpful to Raytheon, the employees of Raytheon, the economy of the state the Raytheon facility is located in & the politicians representing that state.
You send in a decoy to wake up the air defence, that data is relayed to the missiles programmed to attack the air defences. Then the real attack missiles attack the target.

Not using a decoy means sending in your attack, waking up the air defences, they then shoot down as many missiles as they can before the ones left, if any, attack the target.
 
You send in a decoy to wake up the air defence, that data is relayed to the missiles programmed to attack the air defences. Then the real attack missiles attack the target.

Not using a decoy means sending in your attack, waking up the air defences, they then shoot down as many missiles as they can before the ones left, if any, attack the target.

Like I said - I'm not an expert, but ... you send in a decoy missile, the other side is unlikely to fire all its defensive missiles at that single missile. The remaining defensive missiles are still there to shoot down the "real" attacking missiles. Are you saying the only way to have a successful strike is to wipe out ALL the defensive missiles before attacking the real target? This seems unlikely to me - perhaps more of a strategy when you're sending in manned aircraft?
 
You send in a decoy to wake up the air defence, that data is relayed to the missiles programmed to attack the air defences. Then the real attack missiles attack the target.

Not using a decoy means sending in your attack, waking up the air defences, they then shoot down as many missiles as they can before the ones left, if any, attack the target.

As far as I know, you generally try not to wake up Air Defenses at all, and one of the tactics used by cruise missile to achieve this is extremely low altitude flight to mask themselves behind terrain and avoid radar detection. A decoy missile might not make sense at all in that case as it would only serve to heighten enemy attention.

That said, there may be situations where total surprise is unlikely. In that case I don't see it being left up to the missiles to self designate targets as you suggest simply because of the chance that they get something wrong. It's not out of the realm of possibility I guess, the ALARM missile supposedly can go dormant and loiter on a parachute to counter "flashing" air defense radars, but this is a relatively short range anti radiation missile that must be fired by a decision making pilot. I would expect a decoy cruise missile to be something more like a mini electronic warfare aircraft on a one way trip that hides the other missiles by blinding and confusing enemy radars rather than simply being a target in the sky.

Like I said - I'm not an expert, but ... you send in a decoy missile, the other side is unlikely to fire all its defensive missiles at that single missile. The remaining defensive missiles are still there to shoot down the "real" attacking missiles. Are you saying the only way to have a successful strike is to wipe out ALL the defensive missiles before attacking the real target? This seems unlikely to me - perhaps more of a strategy when you're sending in manned aircraft?

There are two methods of countering enemy air defense known as DEAD (Destruction of Enemy Air Defense) and SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defense). SEAD, where the goal is to threaten enemy air defense but necessarily destroy them, is to my knowledge more common even with manned aircraft because it's far easier to do. I'm not sure if it's commonly used with an autonomous attack though just because I don't know how well these weapons deal with popup targets.

In the case of decoys though, while a dummy missile that is sent to just be shot down might not be feasible, an electron warfare missile might make a little more sense if the attack side isn't confident that it can penetrate enemy defenses without being seen.
 
As far as I know, you generally try not to wake up Air Defenses at all, and one of the tactics used by cruise missile to achieve this is extremely low altitude flight to mask themselves behind terrain and avoid radar detection.

In the case of the RAF launches they likely launched from sea close to British territory on Cyprus, the missiles would have been very low to the sea. It's quite possible that this is one of the reasons that the Russian fleet put to sea, they're far better equipped to spot such incoming targets than any land-based defences.
 
Something that BBC or CNN won't tell about.

Russian journalists found a boy "gassed by Assad". He's alive and well.
The "White Helmets" filmed him for food.

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Hopefully, there are more such stars to be found in Douma.
 
Noted journalist Robert Fisk report from Douma rips excuses for airstrike.

Robert Fisk’s Douma Report Rips Away Excuses for Air Strike on Syria

This report shows that there is a highly credible alternative explanation for what happened in Douma – one that needs to be investigated

by Jonathan Cook Posted on April 18, 2018
It seems that many who supported the weekend’s air strikes on Syria are overlooking the significance of Robert Fisk’s report today from Douma, the site of a supposed chemical weapons attack last week.

Fisk is the first western journalist to reach the area and speak to people there. One is a senior doctor at the clinic that treated victims of what a video purported to show were chemical weapons used by the Syrian government. The incident was used as the justification for the air strikes launched jointly by the US, the UK and France.

The doctor says the video was real, but did not show the effects of a chemical weapons attack. It showed something else. This is what the doctor is reportedsaying:

“I was with my family in the basement of my home three hundred metres from here on the night but all the doctors know what happened. There was a lot of shelling [by government forces] and aircraft were always over Douma at night – but on this night, there was wind and huge dust clouds began to come into the basements and cellars where people lived. People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a ‘White Helmet’, shouted ‘Gas!’ and a panic began. People started throwing water over each other. Yes, the video was filmed here, it is genuine, but what you see are people suffering from hypoxia – not gas poisoning.”

On my social media pages there are plenty of armchair warriors furiously denying the importance of this report, by claiming either that the doctor made up the story or that Fisk is a mouthpiece for the Assad regime, or maybe both.

That will not wash for reasons that ought to be obvious – and it still won’t wash even if the testimony later turns out to be wrong.

The air strikes on Syria at the weekend were patently illegal according to international law. That would have been the case even had there been a chemical weapons attack in Douma, in part because it would have been necessary for independent inspectors to determine first whether the Syrian government, and not the jihadists there, was responsible.

The air strikes would have been illegal too, even if it could have been shown that a chemical weapons attack had taken place and that Assad personally ordered it. That is because air strikes would have first required authorization from the UN Security Council. That is why international law exists: to regulate affairs between states, to prevent militarism of the “might is right” variety that nearly destroyed Europe 80 years ago, and to avoid unnecessary state confrontations that in a nuclear age could have dire repercussions.

Had Assad been shown to be responsible, Russia would have come under enormous international pressure to authorize action of some kind against Syria – pressure it would have been extremely hard for it to resist.

But had it resisted that pressure, we would have had to live with its veto at the Security Council. And again, for very good reason. Israel, the US and the UK have used depleted uranium munitions in the Middle East, and Israel and the US white phosphorous. But who among us would think it reasonable for Russia or China to unilaterally carry out punishment air strikes on Maryland (US), Porton Down (UK) or Nes Ziona (Israel), and justify the move on the grounds that the US and UK could veto any moves against themselves or their allies at the Security Council? Who would want to champion belligerent attacks on these sovereign states as “humanitarian intervention”?

But all of this is irrelevant because whatever incontrovertible information the US, UK and France claimed to have that Syria carried out a chemical weapons attack last week is clearly no more reliable than their claims about an Iraqi WMD program back in 2002.

Fisk does not need to prove that his account is definitively true – just like a defendant in the dock does not need to prove their innocence. He has to show only that he reported accurately and honestly, and that the testimony he recounted was plausible and consistent with what he saw. Everything about Fisk’s record and about this particular report suggests there should be no doubt on that score.

Fisk’s report shows that there is a highly credible alternative explanation for what happened in Douma – one that needs to be investigated. Which means that an attack on Syria should never have taken place before inspectors were able to investigate and report their findings.

Instead, the US-UK-France launched air strikes hours before the UN inspectors were due to begin their work in Syria, thereby pre-empting it. At the time those air strikes took place, the aggressor states had neither legal nor evidential justification for their actions. They were were simply relying on the reports of parties, like the White Helmets, that have a vested interest in engineering the Syrian government’s downfall.

As is now known beyond doubt, our leaders lied to us about Iraq and about Libya. Some of us have been warning for some time that we should be highly skeptical of everything we are being told by our governments about Syria, until it is verified by independent evidence.

All of us have a moral responsibility to stop simply believing what our governments and their propagandists in the corporate media tell us, whether we have been doing so out of a kneejerk authoritarian impulse or because we have some romantic notion that, despite the evidence, our leaders are always the good guys and their leaders are always the bad guys.

Just consider for a moment the UK’s support for, and involvement in, the horrifying Saudi war against Yemen, or US politicians’ blanket silence on Israel’s massacre of unarmed demonstrators in Gaza. Our leaders have no moral high ground to stand on. Their foreign policy decisions are about oil, defense contracts and geo-strategic interests, not about protecting civilians or fighting just wars.

However bad Assad is, and he is a dictator, he is responsible for far fewer deaths and much less suffering in the Middle East than either George W Bush or Tony Blair.

Former New York Times correspondent Stephen Kinzer sets out a very plausible reason why the US, UK and France keep intervening in Syria. It is not about children or chemical weapons. It is to prevent the Syrian government and Russia triumphing over the jihadists, as they have been close to doing for some time.

These western states are adamantly opposed to allowing a peaceful resolution in Syria, Kinzer observes, because it:

“might allow stability to spread to nearby countries. Today, for the first time in modern history, the governments of Syria, Iraq, Iran and Lebanon are on good terms. A partnership among them could lay the foundation for a new Middle East.

“That new Middle East, however, would not be submissive to the United States-Israel-Saudi Arabia coalition. For that reason, we are determined to prevent it from emerging. Better to keep these countries in misery and conflict, some reason, than to allow them to thrive while they defy the United States. […]

“From Washington’s perspective, peace in Syria is the horror scenario. Peace would mean what the United States sees as a ‘win’ for our enemies: Russia, Iran, and the Assad government. We are determined to prevent that, regardless of the human cost.”

UPDATE:

Fisk’s account is corroborated by another reporter who is there, Pearson Sharp of the conservative news network One America. Unlike Fisk, who I know has a long track record as a highly credible reporter of events in the Middle East, Sharp is an unknown quantity to me. But it may be significant that he echoes Fisk in saying that no one he spoke to, even in the neighborhood where the attack supposedly occurred, seemed aware that chemical weapons had been used.

Jonathan Cook won the Martha Gellhorn Special Prize for Journalism. His latest books are Israel and the Clash of Civilisations: Iraq, Iran and the Plan to Remake the Middle East (Pluto Press) and Disappearing Palestine: Israel’s Experiments in Human Despair (Zed Books). His website is www.jonathan-cook.net.


https://original.antiwar.com/cook/2...rt-rips-away-excuses-for-air-strike-on-syria/
 
Hopefully, there are more such stars to be found in Douma.
You spotted that they're completely different kids, right? The healthy one is clearly part Fennec Fox for a start. And has different eyes, nose, chin, lips, forehead and eyebrows.

But, you know... samesies.
 
You spotted that they're completely different kids, right? The healthy one is clearly part Fennec Fox for a start. And has different eyes, nose, chin, lips, forehead and eyebrows.

But, you know... samesies.
Alright... If you say so.

These are different people, too, right?
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