Vaccinations thread.

[TenEightyOne]

It's the opposite, saying you won't be convinced until you see emprical evidence that there is a positive link

To consider that as a case you have to ignore the peer review of the original paper and the subsequent studies. Much work has been done to attempt to prove the link claimed in Wakefield's bogus paper, no positive link has been found.

you're someone known for drawing broad conclusions from no evidence whatsoever.

Ball, man.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Ball, man.

I don't know what his game is here - discrediting me isn't going to validate Wakefield's position because they're not mutually exclusive events.

 

[x3ra]

I posted the link to the video because it was discussed earlier in the thread for people who may be interested in watching it. Especially since a lot of people commented on it before even seeing it. I believe that is playing the man, not the ball. At least you all have the ability to play the ball now.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Especially since a lot of people commented on it before even seeing it.

You're assuming that because people disagreed with it, they never watched it in the first place?

I believe that is playing the man, not the ball.

No. Nobody here has launched an ad hominem attack on Wakefield. Every criticism that he been levelled at him has been on the basis of his own work.

 

[Michael88]

I agree with this policy... why should public health be endangered by a few mumsnet nutters who believe that vaccinations are bad (with no evidence to show that they are)?

I personally know four people who suffered extreme complications and permanent damage right after standard vaccinations, and my uncle is one of them. I also suffered extreme complications after a non-standard vaccination and nearly died because my immune system shut down for two years. I spent a whole year in the hospital and it took me three years to fully recover.

What I'm trying to say is, while vaccinations are undoubtedly extremely important it can and totally will cause damage in some people because not every body reacts exactly the same to them. People are individuals, who would have guessed. Forcing people to take medications is NOT a step into the right direction.

Also, don't be fooled by the health ministers actions, there is only one single drive in politics and thats money. Always.
I'm sure the health minister is getting a fat donation by pharma companies. Pharma companies are known to love to do that.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I personally know four people who suffered extreme complications and permanent damage right after standard vaccinations, and my uncle is one of them. I also suffered extreme complications after a non-standard vaccination and nearly died because my immune system shut down for two years. I spent a whole year in the hospital and it took me three years to fully recover.

I'm sorry to hear that.

What I'm trying to say is, while vaccinations are undoubtedly extremely important it can and totally will cause damage in some people because not every body reacts exactly the same to them. People are individuals, who would have guessed.

I think you were already aware that people are individuals and that you're misweilding sarcasm. Your own vaccine was non-standard so that's a different case... what were the complications caused for the four friends irreparably damaged by standard vaccinations?

Forcing people to take medications is NOT a step into the right direction.

I agree, as you'll see if you read the thread.

Also, don't be fooled by the health ministers actions...

Thank you, advice noted.

...there is only one single drive in politics and thats money. Always.

Source required.

I'm sure the health minister is getting a fat donation by pharma companies. Pharma companies are known to love to do that.

Source required for the health minister's backhander too, please.

 

[Famine]

I believe that is playing the man, not the ball.

If proven fraudulent spoonbender and mystic Uri Geller posts a video claiming that he has genuine powers of mysticism and spoonbending, which provides no new evidence but the same old claims he's been making for decades for his own personal gain, it may be dismissed out of hand.

If proven fraudulent faith healer Peter Popoff posts a video claiming that he has genuine powers of faith-healing, which provides no new evidence but the same old claims he's been making for decades for his own personal gain, it may be dismissed out of hand.

If proven fraudulent autism researcher Andrew Wakefield posts a video claiming that he has can link vaccines and autism, which provides no new evidence but the same old claims he's been making for decades for his own personal gain, it may be dismissed out of hand.


That's not playing the man in any way. If they come up with peer-reviewed evidence and it's still dismissed due to who they are, it would be. Does Wakefield do this in your video?

 

[Pupik]

No. Nobody here has launched an ad hominem attack on Wakefield. Every criticism that he been levelled at him has been on the basis of his own work.

Those who profit from dangerous lies – and continue to disseminate falsehoods – deserve special dispensation for such ad hominem attacks.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Actually, those who profit from dangerous lies and continue to do so deserve special dispensation for such ad hominem attacks.

Perhaps, but at soon as we start calling him a "stupid poo-poo head" it makes it that much easier for him to double down on his lies and claim to be vindicated.

 

[Pupik]

Perhaps, but at soon as we start calling him a "stupid poo-poo head" it makes it that much easier for him to double down on his lies and claim to be vindicated.

Wakefield gets what he deserves, he's out for personal gain, and now that he's achieved it, he deserves little else.

I'm tired of being nice.

 

[Michael88]

I think you were already aware that people are individuals and that you're misweilding sarcasm. Your own vaccine was non-standard so that's a different case... what were the complications caused for the four friends irreparably damaged by standard vaccinations?

Triggered severe auto-immune illnesses that developed right after the shots, one case of permanent brain damage and getting very ill from an attenuated vaccine.

Certain vaccinations have long been suspected to trigger auto immune diseases and according to my experience, it looks to be very likely. I'm not a doctor but I have been given a brain to draw my own conclusions and it appears to me that in some cases vaccinations can have dramatic negative effects on the body.

Also, a doctor I know, whose opinion I value highly, shares similar views, unofficially of course. He knows more than a couple cases where patients - to put it lightly- did not react very positively to vaccinations, especially kids.

Source required.

You need a source to realize that the world is run purely by money and that pharma corporations wield great power in politics?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Source required for the health minister's backhander too, please.

ScoMo isn't health minister anymore. He's treasurer. Sussan Ley is the new health minister, although she hasn't done much. I'm not even sure if "No Jab, No Play" is still policy. One of the major criticisms of the current government is that they don't actually do anything.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Triggered severe auto-immune illnesses that developed right after the shots, one case of permanent brain damage and getting very ill from an attenuated vaccine.

Certain vaccinations have long been suspected to trigger auto immune diseases and according to my experience, it looks to be very likely. I'm not a doctor but I have been given a brain to draw my own conclusions and it appears to me that in some cases vaccinations can have dramatic negative effects on the body.

The actual medical thinking is against you though. Children are a group amongst whom it's very likely to find correlative although not causative effects during any given vaccination period. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/111/3/653.

Also, a doctor I know, whose opinion I value highly, shares similar views, unofficially of course. He knows more than a couple cases where patients - to put it lightly- did not react very positively to vaccinations, especially kids.

Three cases of unfavourable reactions to vaccines sounds about par for any doctor of reasonable experience. How are his views "similar" to yours after only three cases and can you cite that appeal to authority?

You need a source to realize that the world is run purely by money...

Yes, because that's a new claim you're making which is bollocks.

...and that pharma corporations wield great power in politics?

No, because that's obvious.

Neither of those were the claims though. You said that

Also, don't be fooled by the health ministers actions, there is only one single drive in politics and thats money. Always.

Quite a specific claim, what's the source?

I'm sure the health minister is getting a fat donation by pharma companies.

Also a specific claim about the former minister (as noted by @prisonermonkeys). You're sure of it, in fact. Source?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Also a specific claim about the former minister (as noted by @prisonermonkeys). You're sure of it, in fact. Source?

Many of our ministers get rotated through portfolios on a fairly regular basis. Morrison is Mr. Fix-It; he tends to get parachuted into larger, more complex ministries, particularly the ones that have been allowed to run themselves and have gradually become dysfunctional - he started in immigration, then swapped it for health (because Peter Dutton proved to be hopeless, and immigration was the only one he couldn't make a mess of), and now he's the treasurer. He's been touted as a future Prime Minister by the right; a kind of Tony Abbott with a brain (but, somehow, less charisma). But I doubt he's been paid off by the pharmaceutical companies, though. Not because I believe he has integrity, but because he doesn't have any imagination. I remember an old skit from "How Green Was My Cactus?" where John Howard is struggling to cope because he doesn't recognise what he's having for dinner; his wife points out that it's the same meat-and-three-veg that he has every night, but she's put the plate on the table the wrong way around. That's Morrison to a tee.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

More details on the anti-anti-vaxxer plan were passed down in the 2017 federal budget this evening: parents who refuse to vaccinate their children will lose $28 per child, per week from Family Tax Benefit A. That's $1456 a year in tax breaks that they will miss out on.

 

[Johnnypenso]

More details on the anti-anti-vaxxer plan were passed down in the 2017 federal budget this evening: parents who refuse to vaccinate their children will lose $28 per child, per week from Family Tax Benefit A. That's $1456 a year in tax breaks that they will miss out on.

And I still maintain this is bullying by the gov't to the nth degree. If you aren't going to punish fatties and smokers in the same way, I don't see how this is justified.

 

[Barra333]

More details on the anti-anti-vaxxer plan were passed down in the 2017 federal budget this evening: parents who refuse to vaccinate their children will lose $28 per child, per week from Family Tax Benefit A. That's $1456 a year in tax breaks that they will miss out on.

$28 per fortnight.

And I still maintain this is bullying by the gov't to the nth degree. If you aren't going to punish fatties and smokers in the same way, I don't see how this is justified.

Call it what you want, but it isn't comparable to smoking or obesity. They are both long term problems with long term solutions (weight loss and quitting smoking don't happen overnight). Neither of which have direct negative impacts on the general public.

On the other hand, not vaccinating your kids is a one-off conscious decision which can be similarly resolved in a very short time with little effort. And not vaccinating puts other kids in danger who are too young or unable to be vaccinated for whatever reason. I would be absolutely fuming if a child of mine who was too young to get the shots got measles or mumps from some other kid whose parents believed a long discredited study and ignored the 99.5% of other scientists.

 

[huskeR32]

If you aren't going to punish fatties and smokers in the same way, I don't see how this is justified.

Smoking and obesity do not jeopardize the population as a whole the same way that anti-vaxxing does when it ruins herd immunization efforts.

 

[Barra333]

And I still maintain this is bullying by the gov't to the nth degree. If you aren't going to punish fatties and smokers in the same way, I don't see how this is justified.

Oh, and dont tell me the government aren't punishing smokers. The blog I found this on is over two years old, so I expect that the 70% tax figure is higher now. A tobacco company also states that in 2014 65-70% of the price of each cigarette is tax.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Smoking and obesity do not jeopardize the population as a whole the same way that anti-vaxxing does when it ruins herd immunization efforts.

True...the risk to the population is almost infinitely greater due to smoking and obesity vs. the tiny number of people who chose not to not vaccinate.

 

[TRGTspecialist]

Call it what you want, but it isn't comparable to smoking or obesity. They are both long term problems with long term solutions (weight loss and quitting smoking don't happen overnight). Neither of which have direct negative impacts on the general public.

Smoking and obesity do not jeopardize the population as a whole the same way that anti-vaxxing does when it ruins herd immunization efforts.

Beware, this seems to be some sort of annual ritual.......

Addressed in 2015 by ExigeEvan (without rebuttal)

Addressed in 2016 by lots of people (with rebuttal, but mainly to misunderstand/abuse vaccination statistics)

Looking forward to the same smokers/obesity comparison being brought up again in 2018, though.........

 

[Barra333]

True...the risk to the population is almost infinitely greater due to smoking and obesity vs. the tiny number of people who chose not to not vaccinate.

Who, exactly is put in danger by an obese person or a smoker? Lets assume it is a 'responsible' smoker who doesn't smoke indoors or close proximity to non-smokers.

 

[ryzno]

Oh, and dont tell me the government aren't punishing smokers. The blog I found this on is over two years old, so I expect that the 70% tax figure is higher now. A tobacco company also states that in 2014 65-70% of the price of each cigarette is tax.

If it wasn't illegal, I'd be shipping cases of ciggs daily to Australia. I'd start my own shipping company.
Our ciggs start at $3.50. Damn...

 

[Barra333]

If it wasn't illegal, I'd be shipping cases of ciggs daily to Australia. I'd start my own shipping company.
Our ciggs start at $3.50. Damn...

That is an old graph. They are $20+ now.

 

[BobK]

So... all this I've heard about the dangers of second hand smoke are overblown hype?

 

[Barra333]

So... all this I've heard about the dangers of second hand smoke are overblown hype?

Who, exactly is put in danger by an obese person or a smoker? Lets assume it is a 'responsible' smoker who doesn't smoke indoors or close proximity to non-smokers.

In my experience, most smokers these days understand the dangers of secondhand smoke and avoid exposing others.

 

[UKMikey]

So... all this I've heard about the dangers of second hand smoke are overblown hype?

Are these dangers comparable to that caused by the loss of herd immunity in a population?

 

[BobK]

Are these dangers comparable to that caused by the loss of herd immunity in a population?

Depends on which fearmongers you listen to.

 

[UKMikey]

Depends on which fearmongers you listen to.

Fearmongering or not, it's no skin off my nose if I'm prevented from smoking in public places. I'm certainly not going to flaunt no smoking legislation just to try and prove a point.

 

[TenEightyOne]

And I still maintain this is bullying by the gov't to the nth degree. If you aren't going to punish fatties and smokers in the same way, I don't see how this is justified.

People smoking where it's illegal are fined, people who are too fat aren't eligible for some medical treatment, that's as far as that weak comparison goes. This is a specific move in loco parentis.