Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Clark]

so we won't have to use the standard cars in career mode, because that would, as your point states, decrease the level of top notch quality we've had before.

Or to say it in a less pessimistic and idiotic way (the standard cars will still drive awesome and they don't exactly look bad):

Premium cars will increase the level of top notch quality compared to the rest of the game. Imagine standard cars are the norm, and the premium cars are giving us a test of what's to come in the future.

 

[bullie77]

Imagine standard cars are the norm, and the premium cars are giving us a test of what's to come in the future.

Although I understand what your point is (though I disagree), realize what you are saying: upscaled GT4 cars into the PS3 is the quality norm of the long awaited GT5.

 

[Strittan]

Or to say it in a less pessimistic and idiotic way (the standard cars will still drive awesome and they don't exactly look bad):

Premium cars will increase the level of top notch quality compared to the rest of the game. Imagine standard cars are the norm, and the premium cars are giving us a test of what's to come in the future.

It's the other way around. The standard cars are just given to us as a bonus, and the premium cars is what have taken PD so long to create and what they've put their heart and soul into. At least that's my feeling.

I mean, we've driven these premium cars for years, in GTHD and GT5 Prologue. To say they're from the future is just pure BS in my opinion. The standard cars on the other hand, we've only seen a short video clip of.

 

[Clark]

Well the Premium cars are supposed to be PS4 quality.

 

[Strittan]

Well the Premium cars are supposed to be PS4 quality.

Really? Then how come we've driven them (even had 16 of them on track at 60 fps) on the PS3 for years?

 

[Clark]

In case you hadn't noticed the cars in GT5P and GT5 are not the same.

 

[James2097]

Kind of directed at Scaff and people with a similar view:

Yeah, of course more cars are good. Physics are of course more important than graphics in the long run. As a simple game-player I'd of course not take out the standard cars if they were offered along with the premiums, but my choice regarding rather having only premium cars is one of wanting GT to maintain it's reputation, and thus selling well. To remain among the A-list franchises, the system seller tour-de-force type games. I want the game to sell as much as possible, which in turn helps PD create more cars down the track, and lets them also provide the physics and everything else we all want.

If I were marketing GT5, I would be extremely worried when a casual observer, who may or may not have been playing NFS Shift, Forza 3 etc, maybe not a GT fan who will buy the game automatically like us, comes along to a games shop demoing GT5. He doesn't know about all the features in the game, he doesn't know how many cars there are. He'll make a choice via his first impression, everyone does.

He mostly sees car models that look only a little nicer than the ones from GT4 which he already has played many *years* ago on his ancient PS2 system. He will casually laugh at the development time, and remark that "oh are they still making that series? It doesn't look like they're kept up, kinda sad GT used to be best". And he'll dismiss it and walk off, with a copy of the no doubt amazing looking Dirt 3 or that new NFS made by Criterion under his arm.

People make snap judgements. GT5 needs to be an astounding game in every respect. Consistently amazing visuals are so important in achieving a good first impression, and selling consoles. GT has always been the yardstick for graphics on PlayStation. If it appears under-par or cheapened at all by the 800 standard cars, it not only hurts PD, but Sony and PlayStation. The next GT may not have such a luxurious dev cycle or budget, if regular people aren't blown away by the product.

My argument of course, isn't aimed to win favour among die-hard GT fans. Of course we all play GT for the gameplay. But PD only keep making them because of the casual mainstream being impressed with the amazing looking shiny cars in the game shop. Thats why the physics are so great, thats why they have the budget to do it all.

GT is a system seller franchise. It has always shown exactly what PlayStation is capable of. This generation, it won't. If it loses relevancy to other consistently better looking racing games, GT is in danger of falling hard.

 

[analog]

The strange thing in my opinion is that Kaz himself also seems to believe cockpit view is a very important feature, hence the enormous amount of interior detailing displayed in those Premium cars.
Even some extremely small wiring in those NASCAR cockpits are modelled in 3D which most wouldn't even notice or care for much if they were 2D or even not there at all ( even me perhaps, and I'm a sucker for detail ).
It's a big discrepancy between on the one hand an, almost bordering on anal retentive, obsessive amount of attention to cockpit view accuracy and possibly a complete lack of this feature to most cars in the game.

Whatever the reasons for this obvious compromise, can't believe Kaz is happy about it either as GT has always in the past offered all cars ( regardless of "importance", from Kei car to hypercar ) with the same level of attention.
Sure those Premium cars are the new "standard" and yes they might push the limits of the PS3 and are better suited for a PS4 perhaps.
But I expected a full game fully suited for this generation, ah well, we'll wait and see what it brings come November.

 

[Scaff]

Kind of directed at Scaff and people with a similar view:

*SNIP*

GT is a system seller franchise. It has always shown exactly what PlayStation is capable of. This generation, it won't. If it loses relevancy to other consistently better looking racing games, GT is in danger of falling hard.

As I have already said, I fully understand exactly what you are saying and why you are saying it.

I simply don't agree with you that it will make the difference (sales wise) that you are implying it will.

My main reason for saying this is simply based on exerpience here at GT Planet, you see prior to the launch of every GT game something of this nature turns up. Some reason why people will not buy the game, some reason why PD have dropped the ball and this one will be the last.

True of the matter is that no matter how much this happens, it never comes to pass. Hell you only have to look at the 'fury' GT5P caused at launch, and how many said that selling a 'demo' would kill the series (despite the same thing being said when GT4P came out), it never did.

The same was said of GT4 lacking on-line and still not having drag races (despite having a drag strip), you can go on and on, back and back.


For some the premium vs standard will be a deal breaker,however for most it will not make a jot of difference; and I do include the 'masses' in that who will buy it simply because its a GT game (the same ones who do with every release and then P/X it a few weeks later because its 'too hard').

You may not agree with my reasoning, but do not mistake that for not having thought this out.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Strittan]

In case you hadn't noticed the cars in GT5P and GT5 are not the same.

In case you hadn't noticed, the cars we've seen in both GT5P and GT5 are the same. The thing is that we haven't seen all GT5P cars in GT5 yet.

Don't tell me you're one of those who believe the GT5P cars are standard cars.

 

[bullie77]

For some the premium vs standard will be a deal breaker,however for most it will not make a jot of difference; and I do include the 'masses' in that who will buy it simply because its a GT game (the same ones who do with every release and then P/X it a few weeks later because its 'too hard').

I agree with this. The game will sell the same with or without premium cars only, standards alone, a mix, etc. I stated before - myself being one of the biggest critics here about this 2-types of cars in the game (and all around that), I will buy the game the day of release and if the chance happens, the CE.

This "GT fever" however (of buying it no matter what, defending it no matter its faults - I am speaking generally here), will ultimately be against us, because we are passing the idea to PD that we will buy ANYTHING they put in front of us as long as it's GT related... this can cause the lack of development and effort on the series.

Someone told me before that I was insisting in something pointless. Quite contrarly in my opinion. I think it is quite important to let them (PD) clear that they have failed to deliver what was expected, and be aware that those expectations were set by them. They must realize that in order to keep the franchise in the future they must do a better job globally.

Earlier in the days of industrial revolution and following decades, whatever factory would produce whatever product they'd want, under their terms and specifications, and people would buy it! Look at Henry Ford's famous sentence - "You can buy it in any color as long as it's black!", regarding his Model T. This is unthinkable today and any company, in any activity that assume to have that posture will not be successful in the mid-long term.
Today your success depends directly in your abiliy of providing to the market what it demands.

 

[Clark]

In case you hadn't noticed, the cars we've seen in both GT5P and GT5 are the same. The thing is that we haven't seen all GT5P cars in GT5 yet.

Don't tell me you're one of those who believe the GT5P cars are standard cars.

I'm not saying they're standard or premium, they were the beginnings of premium. As far as I'm aware none of the cars in GT5P get dirty, have damage of any sort or working lights. The cars aren't the same.

 

[Strittan]

As far as I'm aware none of the cars in GT5P get dirty, have damage of any sort or working lights. The cars aren't the same.

Of course not, but that was like 3 years ago, and it was a beta. What does this have to do with anything anyway? You said the premium cars are of next gen quality, though they're obviously current gen, as we've seen them and driven them on the current gen console.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you were trying to say.

 

[James2097]

@Scaff

I'm not saying your thought process isn't rational, given the history of the franchise you're correct if we assume PD can't do anything to harm the series. People have always blown things out of proportion. But is this issue on a similar level?

Demos being sold at silly prices: annoying, but doesn't ultimately harm the series as we've come to expect them. Prologues are quickly forgotten by the time the full versions release. Not a big issue. Most people don't buy the prologues anyway, just the fans.

GT4 lacking online? PS2 was never known to be strong online. Network adapter didn't even come standard till PS2-slim. It wasn't a feature everyone would've used anyway. Drag strips? Would have been a tiny portion of the game. GT is a circuit racing game. Its not something that all players would even notice if it were included or not.


Now, I'm saying what I'm worried about is quite possibly worth worrying about, given the nature of the issue this time. GT has never had unimpressive or merely adequate visuals. Mind-bendingly impressive graphics (on a new system) are one of GT's main strengths along with physics. GT5 will no doubt be very successful, its a huge franchise with a lot of inbuilt sales. But the lasting impression may be that it has lost a little (or more than a little) of the mystique, the magic, the perfection. Its an issue every single player will be aware of. Its not like a feature PD have removed so Joe Schmo won't notice!

Lets go historically, as each new system gets a GT game and the affect the graphics had on my enjoyment of each:
GT1 was a smack in the face, I couldn't understand how anyone could develop cars that looked so shiny, to have that reflective quality like metal, and represent real car models to the extent that I could easily tell which model cars I was racing. Compared to the blocky polygonal cars in something like Destruction Derby, this was MINDBLOWING. I would watch the replays for days.

GT3 looked beyond sensational, it seemed so crisp and super-computery on launch. It helped GT's reputation for photorealistic realism enormously. GT3 didn't even have that many cars. It didn't matter, it sold like hotcakes. The framerate was silky smooth for the first time. The physics came alive because of this. The car models were gorgeous, and remained as good as anything in the PS2 generation for years.

GT5... 200 cars that look about as good as we'd all been expecting, but then 800 PS2 level ones that look decidedly last gen computer-gamey and actually well below current expectations for cars in modern racing games? It'll sell well because its GT, but the reputation is on the line big time. It may really feel like an unfinished game, as this time PD have LEFT IN the unfinished stuff...

 

[gtracedriver]

Standard models won't as bad as some are saying. Let us see what happens. I have read lot of time many game companies say they wanted to do this and they wanted to that ... but the main reason for not including they say something like this "if it is not going to be good. we are not going to do it" so they will include it in their next game.

Just for the sake of number doing it will be a big mistake. Only in cover box it will look good. I do not think it is a deal breaker. 200+ premium models with all other features like day/night cycle. wrc, super gt, nascar and so should be enough to get GT5 I guess.

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff

I'm not saying your thought process isn't rational, given the history of the franchise you're correct if we assume PD can't do anything to harm the series. People have always blown things out of proportion. But is this issue on a similar level?

Demos being sold at silly prices: annoying, but doesn't ultimately harm the series as we've come to expect them. Prologues are quickly forgotten by the time the full versions release. Not a big issue. Most people don't buy the prologues anyway, just the fans.

GT4 lacking online? PS2 was never known to be strong online. Network adapter didn't even come standard till PS2-slim. It wasn't a feature everyone would've used anyway. Drag strips? Would have been a tiny portion of the game. GT is a circuit racing game. Its not something that all players would even notice if it were included or not.


Now, I'm saying what I'm worried about is quite possibly worth worrying about, given the nature of the issue this time. GT has never had unimpressive or merely adequate visuals. Mind-bendingly impressive graphics (on a new system) are one of GT's main strengths along with physics. GT5 will no doubt be very successful, its a huge franchise with a lot of inbuilt sales. But the lasting impression may be that it has lost a little (or more than a little) of the mystique, the magic, the perfection. Its an issue every single player will be aware of. Its not like a feature PD have removed so Joe Schmo won't notice!

Lets go historically, as each new system gets a GT game and the affect the graphics had on my enjoyment of each:
GT1 was a smack in the face, I couldn't understand how anyone could develop cars that looked so shiny, to have that reflective quality like metal, and represent real car models to the extent that I could easily tell which model cars I was racing. Compared to the blocky polygonal cars in something like Destruction Derby, this was MINDBLOWING. I would watch the replays for days.

GT3 looked beyond sensational, it seemed so crisp and super-computery on launch. It helped GT's reputation for photorealistic realism enormously. GT3 didn't even have that many cars. It didn't matter, it sold like hotcakes. The framerate was silky smooth for the first time. The physics came alive because of this. The car models were gorgeous, and remained as good as anything in the PS2 generation for years.

GT5... 200 cars that look about as good as we'd all been expecting, but then 800 PS2 level ones that look decidedly last gen computer-gamey and actually well below current expectations for cars in modern racing games? It'll sell well because its GT, but the reputation is on the line big time. It may really feel like an unfinished game, as this time PD have LEFT IN the unfinished stuff...

I notice that you missed out GT2, which is quite telling.

Given that most people believe that GT2 sacrificed quality for quantity, upping the car and track count for poorer car models and some major issues on the replays (with a lot of floating cars on certain tracks).

That did the franchise no harm at all, and despite these issues many people still rate it as the 'best' version.


So as I say I understand your concerns, but having 'been there and got the T-shirt', I just don't believe it will be the major issue some do.

That said I will also reserve judgment until we have seen more on the standard cars (beyond the single video and screen grabs we currently have), before professing the end of GT.


Scaff

 

[SlipZtrEm]

GT5... 200 cars that look far better than we'd all been expecting, but then 800 PS2 level ones that look decidedly last gen computer-gamey and actually well below current expectations for cars in modern racing games? It'll sell well because its GT, but the reputation is on the line big time. It may really feel like an unfinished game, as this time PD have LEFT IN the unfinished stuff...

I take issue with this current two-tier setup, and I agree with everything you've said James, but credit where credit's due... .

You're articulating my thoughts better than I could. Yes Scaff, there was always talk from people saying they wouldn't buy whichever game due to the lack of X feature... but on my native GT board, there really were people who didn't bother with 4 after online support was yanked. I'd argue that back in 2004, not having online was still quasi-acceptable, and obviously GT4 did well... but imagine if GT5 was shipping without a hint of online? That would cost it a lot of sales.

This two-tier issue might not, at least immediately upon release. Casual fans probably haven't followed every tidbit of info, so they won't know that (currently) Standard cars are recycled GT4 assets. But the word will get out when those people who go to trade it in a few months later start talking to their friends. It's not just about the graphics; Standards don't even have access to all the features provided for Premiums. They really are below par, in that sense... and they make up the majority of the car lineup. I don't expect we're the only ones moaning about it, either; I imagine a lot of reviewers will be mentioning it as well.

This system affects everything; if we get a livery editor, Standards will have to be handled differently, since all of their features are part of their texture. PD will have to provide us with two different ways to approach painting a car. Body kits just aren't possible on a one-piece modelled body. We already know damage won't be the same. Interior view's gone too.

I've said it a few times though; I'm bitter about Standard now, but I see the long-term benefits of Kaz steadfastly refusing to lower the quality of the Premium models by even a bit to allow more to be done on time; the amount of Premiums can only continue to raise, and they truly are better looking than anything else out there. So in a few years time, we could possibly be looking at a GT6 with 800 Premiums, all to this insane level of detail he's created now. But as of right now, we have to make due with some last generation models. It's very unexpected; can you imagine what GT3 would've looked like if the car count was so important, they imported a bunch of low-quality GT2 models in to pad it?

 

[Tornado]

One thing I've been thinking about recently is, if the cars will indeed be lifted straight from GT4/GT Mobile, does that mean PD won't be fixing any of the problems that were present on those cars? And will they be truly obnoxious with padding the roster like they were in GT Mobile?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Hmmm... I'm being optimistic and hoping no on that last part; I know the PS3 is region-free, but since there are going to be different versions of GT5 for different regions, hopefully they get only their particular version of a car. 3 Tiburons aren't needed, for example. Keeping the focus on Korea; I hope there aren't any cars that are exclusive to just one version of the game, either, like the IS200 Race Car or the first-gen facelift Tiburon. Or the original Mini.

As for the problems on some cars, which? I remember the Will VS suffered a really horrible problem with an all-black polygon just cutting infront of far-side rear wheel. I hope things like that are taken care of.

 

[Devedander]

http://www.playstationuniversity.com/gt5-standard-cars-will-not-have-cockpit-view-4048/

🤬

 

[Tornado]

As for the problems on some cars, which? I remember the Will VS suffered a really horrible problem with an all-black polygon just cutting infront of far-side rear wheel. I hope things like that are taken care of.

I was talking in general, not just modeling oddities (though if I was, I would mention all of the cars with tailights that didn't work). For example, the Spoon S2000 that redlined 2000 RPM before its power peak. And the intentional misnaming of cars out of some odd attempt at Americanization (Lexus GS300s with turbo engines, for example), even though that wasn't a problem in previous games in the series.

 

[James2097]

I notice that you missed out GT2, which is quite telling.

Given that most people believe that GT2 sacrificed quality for quantity, upping the car and track count for poorer car models and some major issues on the replays (with a lot of floating cars on certain tracks).

That did the franchise no harm at all, and despite these issues many people still rate it as the 'best' version.


So as I say I understand your concerns, but having 'been there and got the T-shirt', I just don't believe it will be the major issue some do.

That said I will also reserve judgment until we have seen more on the standard cars (beyond the single video and screen grabs we currently have), before professing the end of GT.


Scaff

Presumedly 'telling'... I left out GT2 and GT4 not because I consider them worse GT games (I don't) but because I was illustrating the importance of a really perceivably big jump in visual realism when GT arrives on a new console. The second game on the same system can happily go for quantity and pad out other features, thats quite natural. My argument is it would've been smarter for GT5 to go for absolute stunning (for the era) quality ala GT3 given people would love to be seriously blown away with the first proper GT on PS3. Every other GT game has had visuals consistently at the limit of what it's console could achieve. GT5 may be the first GT that doesn't always deliver this. Past successes are quite irrelevant to this particular issue.

I've liked each GT title more than the last for reasons other than graphics. I am not a graphics whore, but I do understand the importance of them to sell systems and set reputations for years to come. To the extent it will matter this time, only time can tell. But there is no doubt PD are breaking with tradition, by shooting for 1000+ cars straight away.

I haven't judged prematurely, also waiting to see, and in the meantime expressing my distaste for the idea of less than great car models appearing in a brand new PS3 GT game. Its a big break from what I and many others like to see in a GT title so long in development. Perhaps you might also reserve judgement before professing this not to be an issue. I haven't professed the end of GT, but very concerned this issue may alter GT's brand power for the worse.

We simply don't know exactly what the standard cars will look like, and how wrong/incongruous they'll sit next to the premium models. If they really do look similar to PS2 cars, or not up to scratch compared to the current generation's standards, there is substantial potential for embarrassment and damage done to the brand. To deny this potential is daft. It is a big issue as long as that potential is there.

What I'm not saying and have never said, is that it will be a bad game. Likely really fun. It just depends how noticeably bad/worse the standards look, and what the public and critical response is.

I have a skill at prattling on incessantly when I'm tired late at night, so I'll stop as I've made my point 50 times over.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

A rather crushing blow to the cockpit hopeful holdouts.

 

[Dapper]

Here is the outside of a standard model-
http://www.gtpla.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/gran-turismo-5-e3-2010-screenshots-2-66.jpg

And this line, "Standard cars do not support vehicle interior camera views", may be talking about this view-


Everyone worried about every car not having a cockpit view should chill out, and everyone that is getting excited because some might be wrong about all cars having a cockpit view should just be less adament.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Welcome to the discussion, Dapper. Feel free to come back when you know what you're talking about. That's a Premium model.

...I feel the need to bookmark a lot of the grasping at straws with this whole interior views thing. The wording couldn't be clearer on the website, but since people are now bending it around to support their hopes, I wouldn't mind reminding them when November 2 comes along.

 

[JDMKING13]

Here is the outside of a standard model-
http://www.gtpla.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/gran-turismo-5-e3-2010-screenshots-2-66.jpg

And this line, "Standard cars do not support vehicle interior camera views", may be talking about this view-

Even though it makes great sense you will be labeled DESPERATE so welcome to my boat, we will ride together on this one anybody with sense knows Standard cars will not have this view because the interior view is no where as detailed so we will just have to wait.

That picture is a Premium car BTW

 

[Strittan]

Haha, I can't believe people still believe the muscle cars in the E3 demo are standard!

 

[Dapper]

Welcome to the discussion, Dapper. Feel free to come back when you know what you're talking about. That's a Premium model.

...I feel the need to bookmark a lot of the grasping at straws with this whole interior views thing. The wording couldn't be clearer on the website, but since people are now bending it around to support their hopes, I wouldn't mind reminding them when November 2 comes along.

yet, http://www.gtpla.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/gran-turismo-5-e3-2010-screenshots-2-66.jpg is premium?

So you know, I could care less for any interior view. Thanks.

Also, the NASCAR cars look more realistic in those screen shots on my computer than that old Vette.

 

[Devedander]

Even though it makes great sense you will be labeled DESPERATE so welcome to my boat,

It's in large part due to a long string of dissapointments of exactly this type...

We have seen confusing or poor translations over and over, some members consistently read them to be as positive as they can only to find out later indeed it what it sounded like and not cleverly hidden positives in a bad translation.

 

[Devedander]

yet, http://www.gtpla.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/gran-turismo-5-e3-2010-screenshots-2-66.jpg is premium?

Yes... yes it is.

As mentioned before, please refrain from contributing until you are more sure of what you are contributing. Nothing personal, but we have everything from fanboys to haters chipping in here, uneducated FUD is the least valuable thing we can add to the picture.