Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)
- Thread starter Nicholas9889
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- GTP_Stotty
Self Aligning Torque (steering resistance) builds are load is placed on the tyre and then shortly before the limit of grip is reached it drops off dramatically.
This is the biggest single issue I have with the GT5 physics engine, and since I first got the game, I've always felt GT5 was a backward step vs GT5P and even more so vs the GT5 2010 Academy demo.
Whatever the tyres, GT5 cars slide far too progressively... it's almost as if the car is always sliding to some extent, and there's no clearly defined grip limit as you get in a real car. The way FF is modelled doesn't help this. Self aligning counter steer when a car oversteers feels OK, but there's no change in steering weight when a car is understeering or in a 4 wheel drift, which makes the driving experience just feel wrong... though not worng enough to make it unplayable.
The other key problem is weight transfer... or rather the lack of it in FWD and AWD cars and how it manifests itself in oversteer when the brake is released whilst trail braking.
Excluding the above, MR cars are modelled nicely, FR OK, but FF and to a lesser extent AWD, never feel right to me.
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- hennessey_86 and GTP_evox
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I think both have major physics issues which prevent them both from being classed as sims.
Scaff
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That depends on how you define the term Sim.
You could class Burnout as a driving sim, a very basic one, but it still simulates some aspects of driving and gets the overall basics right.
FM4 and GT5 both attempt to simulate how a car reacts, as such they are both for me sims, however the are better and/or worse in differing areas.
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I class a sim as a game that tries to recreate driving a car in a realistic manner. For me GT5 has to many flaws and so does Forza. But if I had to pick which one was more realistic it would be forza without a doubt, the cars feel more alive. In Gt5 they feel glued to the road with no indication of how much grip you have through the wheel.
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- GTP_Stotty
Really?
I've only noticed this when cars are on unrealistic tyres... ie; road cars on sports or racing tyres. If you drive cars straight out of the box they rarely have too much grip.
Though I agree that the FF in GT5 doesn't give any feedback on how close you are to the grip limit.
It was a practical example to be executed in GT5 because I don't agree with the quoted phrase "there's no change in steering weight when a car is understeering". I thought that force feeedback was a theme of discussion in the last messages and I have experienced a big difference in steering weight on some understeer situations. Just that!
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- GTP_Stotty
I'm not saying the car doesn't understeer (virtually all cars understeer like shopping trolleys in GT5)...
In a real car, when you get understeer, the steering tends to get lighter (ie; offers less resistance)... you can feel this happening and adjust your speed and steering angle accordingly.
In GT5 there's no change in steering weight... the only way you can tell the car is understeering is with your eyes as the car runs wide or from the noise the tyres make.
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I can't say it's not there in extreme situations as I don't drive like that, but I'm not really bothered about the effect in extreme conditions. I'm trying to run as fast as possible, and to do this you need to be either right on the grip limit, or sometimes slightly over or under it depending on the car/track/specific corner. GT5 steering weight/feedback does not give any feel at this level of granularity.
I'll give you a specific example; The most recent on-line TT (GT86 at GV)... the long right hand corner exiting the tunnel just before the T3 line.
This is a constant radius bend if you get your line right. Get the car turned in in 3rd gear, no understeer, slowly increase the speed until the car starts slightly running wide... no change in steering weight/feedback. The only way you know you're understeering is from seeing the front end run wide of your chosen line or because you're having to increase steering angle to maintain the line... which ultimately kills your exit.
Scaff
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No it was a video clip and a screen shot. With no explanation at all to support it how is anyone supposed to know what it is about?
In future please actually explain what any video/images are supposed to illustrate.
Yes and GT5 doesn't accurately represent the transition across the range of self aligning torque in anything close to an accurate manner, it simply transitions from grip to no grip (torque to no torque) in an almost digital manner.
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I can tell when car is understeering through steering feedback. If I remember correctly, you were using Active Steering on Strong, that directly affects the steering feedback.
I could tell what it was about due to what he was quoting and saying what to try.
It is quite accurate for racing driver part I would say. One thing I like about GT5 physics is it is like a natural feeling and it is very progessive. I can see why you feel like that though. Like in real life, if you are not at one with the car, then transition to grip to no grip will be like a digital manner as you will react too late, if you are in tune with what is happening, it will feel progressive and I think that is why your feeling of GT5 driving is like a switch because you are not in tune with what is happening. If you are in tune like you are in real life, you might like GT5 physics better than you currently do.
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- GTP_Orido
Anybody here have driven hard Toyota Yaris or Honda Jazz in real life, I mean real hard with street tires ... they have quite a slow response, too light and vague/dead steering feel/feedback at low/high speed, does GT5 simulate this as well ? If it does, then the FFB is quite good, not all cars from GT5 in real life have a great steering feedback. So I think, we can't expect the game to give great feedback while the real car do not 
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Force Feedback wheels work differently than a real steering wheel would work, so feel of all cars is direct and you have more feedback than you would in real life.Anybody here have driven hard Toyota Yaris or Honda Jazz in real life, I mean real hard with street tires ... they have quite a slow response, too light and vague/dead steering feel/feedback at low/high speed, does GT5 simulate this as well ? If it does, then the FFB is quite good, not all cars from GT5 in real life have a great steering feedback. So I think, we can't expect the game to give great feedback while the real car do not
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Does this happens to PC sims like Iracing and others ? If that is the case, then the FFB is only as good as the programmer ability to write the simulation routines apart from the hardware limitation of course.
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I haven't played iRacing but other PC sims, it works similar way to GT5. I guess there is probably a way to make steering handle individual but would require too much effort to make it like that and work with all wheels as intended.
Scaff
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From the threads opening post "Don't just post up pictures and video without any form of meaningful comment. This is a discussion thread not a picture/video gallery. Offending posts will be deleted on sight."
Its not an option, but a requirement.
Unfortunately you can't take just one part and ignore the rest.
No the feeling of no progression is because GT5 has a basic tyre model that doesn't act in the way real tyres do, nothing in regard to tuning is going to change that.
GT5 includes primary ride feedback into the FFB, which you never feel via the steering in a real car, FM4 doesn't do this and neither do most PC sims (they give the option of routing it via buttkickers, etc for feedback via the seat as it should be).
I've driven a few Yaris's as courtesy cars and my wife's car is a Jazz, GT5 simulates neither of them particularly well when it comes to steering feel (however for other reasons no sim will ever accurately model the exact steering feel of a range of cars - far too much is involved) and progression.Anybody here have driven hard Toyota Yaris or Honda Jazz in real life, I mean real hard with street tires ... they have quite a slow response, too light and vague/dead steering feel/feedback at low/high speed, does GT5 simulate this as well ? If it does, then the FFB is quite good, not all cars from GT5 in real life have a great steering feedback. So I think, we can't expect the game to give great feedback while the real car do not
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It is meaningful to me.
It is the part I'm interested in a racing game and the part I have more experience on in the game.
I was not using the word tuning in the context I think you are referring to.
Can you name these PC sims that options for routing via ButtKickers and don't give the feedback you mention?
Scaff
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Not a discussion point. The first post is quite clear on this and I would strongly suggest that you stop taking issue with a moderation statement.
That doesn't make a blind bit of difference, you can't take a part of that curve and ignore the rest, even suggesting that you can makes me suspect you don't actually understand what its representing.
So what you are basically saying is that its my fault that GT5 doesn't progress tyre grip because I'm not in tune with it?
I think you will find the reason why GT5's tyre model doesn't progress is because it doesn't model it and not matter how 'in tune' you try and get with it you're not goin to get it to start modeling it.
I will put together a list for you. - Edit - This will do it for me http://simxperience.com/Products/SimVibe/SimVibeSoftware.aspx
In the mean time would you explain why you think GT5 routes this kind of feedback via the steering and what advantages and disadvantages it brings.
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I guess he could have put "Try this and see if steering weight changes when you make a car understeer like in this video and picture" to be more meaningful. Will take note of this moderation statement and post with more detail if I do post a video.
I don't try to drive like an average driver would in the game.
It is progressive for me and I'm sure many others. F1 car might be like a switch if you don't know how to control it and are not in tune with it but that doesn't stop people who are in tune with it being able to drive it progressively in real life does it? Going on and off grass is controllable in GT5 in quite a lot of situations at racing speed if you are in tune with physics, but from what I remember for you it is like instant death spin or something along them lines.
I think they do it so they make use of the force feedback system to try and give feedback you will miss out on. Ain't that the point of it anyway? I don't think motion simulators will suddenly become common so currently one of the best ways to bring us gamers the immersion experience. I might try to use a full blown motion simulator hopefully within the next year and see how it is and compare it to what I'm currently used to if you like?
Looking at link in your edit, I don't think the games mentioned have options in-game for such options? It is like how GT5 can be used with a ButtKicker. Also what games don't deliver primary ride feedback in FFB as you mention?
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Scaff
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Thank you.
Totally and utterly irreverent.
The progression of self aligning torque vs lateral tyre load doesn't skip parts simply because you "don't try to drive like an average driver", that progression is still going to occur and still be a factor regardless of how you are driving.
I'd be interested to hear you explain what the graph is showing in regard to the increase of lateral load (cornering forces) and its impact on steering resistance. Please include why you feel that when you "don't try to drive like an average driver" it makes parts of it irrelevant.
And exactly what have you driven on track to make such a statement?
The tyre progression in GT5 is not close to what you feel in reality, particularly for road tyres, I've explained that in great detail in the thread I linked to earlier and I suspect that a lot of the issue here is that you are using GT5 as your point of reference rather than reality.
You're point might make sense if progression existed in GT5 for lower powered cars with lower grip tyres, but it doesn't. I've mentioned it before but an early MX5 on OEM tyres is in reality a wonderfully progressive car to learn all about oversteer and how RWD cars behave on the limit. A limit that can be explored at lower speeds and it a very, very progressive manner, which is nothing at all like an MX5 on CM's in GT5.
The point is that GT5 (and GT3 and GT4 for that matter) include feedback via the steering that in reality you would not feel via the steering, as such it masks what little real feedback exists and also causes the cars at time to behave in some very odd ways (for example the steering getting jerked back and forth at highspeed on certain tracks).
That I can recall off the top of my head (console and PC): Enthusia, LFS, Race Pro, RBR and Rfactor.
Oh and to be sure we are talking about the same thing please explain what primary ride means to you.
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It's definitely a losing battle trying to persuade GT5 fans that a direct rival has the better driving model, I have seen some truly shocking comments in threads like this on various sites including "Forza has worse physics than shift" "GT5 is the only true sim on consoles" so race pro, F1, wrc are all arcade games then. I play both regular with a wheel and neither are bad games, but neither can be called a true sim in my opinion. like in GT5 you just have to floor the throttle to get of the line with no effect on the car what's so ever, or Forza 4 and the fact that the cars at times feel way to lose at the rear. But considering the sheer numbers of cars in both games I think both developers have done a great job.
I thought that my reply was self explanatory due the context, quote and indications but I will take note.
I was not discussing the existence of an accurate transition, he said that "there is no change" and I said "there is a change in that situation". Nothing more.
Maybe most of those "facts" are not as important as people want to make. Forza has not even a linear steering simulation and no one is making that a big deal when it's more important for the driving model than a car sliding to one side, in first gear, from a standing still start and when doing a burnout. Same with the force feedback, if it feels good it's because is doing more things right than other that overall feels worst or less detailed, even doing some certain aspect better.
Youtube is plenty of vids like these and here in GTP there are a lot of positives real life experiences from people with track time. Also there is the GT Academy success and all the finalists (not the winners) doing good at the track events even with no real experience except playing GT5 with a wheel. Those are the real facts.
There are examples like the above but from Forza? I mean real players not promotional material from MS or the typical magazines comparisons. I have read many times that some FM top players were involved in serious crashes at Nurburgring and that the instructors are being cautious of "game players" because that but I don't recall any proof from people that have translated its Forza developed skills succesfully into the track.
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Zr0
How do you know the crashes weren't because the Nurburgring in Forza is inaccurate, which has nothing to do with physics?
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