Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

Which game do you find has superior physics?

  • Gran Turismo 5

    Votes: 1,142 80.5%

  • Forza 4

    Votes: 167 11.8%

  • They are equal

    Votes: 110 7.8%
  • Total voters
    1,419
I'd love to know how you can set up a car in GT based on real life settings. ABS 0,3,5 etc mean nothing to me. Long time since I played it but even setting the correct tyre would be a pain. Soft,medium and hard are a subjective value when trying to tie them down to a down tire value.

Fact is I think, that GT offers a huge range of grip values and by trial and error you should get a good approximation of the real world settings. But I think you will have to tinker with the values to get it.
 
Spagetti69
I'd love to know how you can set up a car in GT based on real life settings. ABS 0,3,5 etc mean nothing to me. Long time since I played it but even setting the correct tyre would be a pain. Soft,medium and hard are a subjective value when trying to tie them down to a down tire value.
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Neither GT5 or FM4 allow you to do more than use the same basic approach you would in real life (and for ride height even that is out in GT5), as in neither do the changes have as dramatic an effect as they should do, being watered down to make it more approachable.

While its still not ideal I personally prefer FM4 in this regard as generally it offers a greater range of adjustments (both in areas you can adjust and the range of adjustments), more granular adjustments (FM has more values that can be adjusted in the 1/10th or 1/100th of a unit - brake bias in particular is a pain in GT) and the changes have a slightly less watered down effect as well.



Spagetti69
Fact is I think, that GT offers a huge range of grip values and by trial and error you should get a good approximation of the real world settings. But I think you will have to tinker with the values to get it.
Click to expand...
GT5 does offer a wide range of grip values, however its difficult to find one that matches a real world tyres lat and long grip values and the wide range still does nothing to improve the lack of progression as slip angles increase. PD need to overhaul the tyre model in the series in a huge way, as all the grip values in the world will not change the issues with how tyres actually react.
 
Spagetti69
I'd love to know how you can set up a car in GT based on real life settings. ABS 0,3,5 etc mean nothing to me. Long time since I played it but even setting the correct tyre would be a pain. Soft,medium and hard are a subjective value when trying to tie them down to a down tire value.

Fact is I think, that GT offers a huge range of grip values and by trial and error you should get a good approximation of the real world settings. But I think you will have to tinker with the values to get it.
Click to expand...

ABS 0 makes a lot of difference, more closer to raw experience, if you check the last few post of no ABS guide thread, there's a member mentioning about ABS 1 or above helps to stabilize braking process by auto blipping the throttle, while ABS 0 do not ( I always blip the throttle on my own when driving anyway to help with trail braking - even more so when the rear loses balance ).

As for the tires, I always believe that comfort represent real world tire best, sports hard grips too much - I would compare it to soft compound semi slick track day tires. Comfort soft would fit well within high performance street legal soft compound tire or hard compound street legal semi slick track ready tires.

I have a DVD video with some Japanese tuner car/driver lapping Suzuka with soft compound semi slick, the cars are above 400HP, some reaching close to 600HP, one of them was raced at Super Taikyu. The inboard camera shows the speed of the corners and how easy these cars loses grip quickly - sudden rear slides -not progressively at times. I am guessing similar speed and grip level would be close to comfort soft.

Here is a video of my lap practice, this it the closest one I find to be similar with the real life Suzuka video - I wished I can upload it, but I will need to cut the video, edit it - it's a DVD disc. In the mean time this might give some rough idea of how much grip comfort soft tire has - seems perfect for me.

Amuse 380RS Superleggera at Suzuka with comfort soft and 9/6 BB, no ABS, time is aorund 2:22s. A realistic hybrid with only twin turbo kit added, everything else are as they were, tuned the LSD + suspension only.



Another version of the same lap with hood cam and external view :



Watch till the end - the external cam shows how the car rear end behaves on the first half of Suzuka.
 
Haha, you got me Simon, and I am still proud ABS 0 driver :D May I interest you to become a test driver for currently running GTP FITT No Assist Tuner Challenge ? It's voluntary of course, and I won't look down those who turn down the offer :sly:


The No Driving Assist Tuner Challenge

I am sure the experience would be very rewarding, I invited anyone who read this thread to consider to volunteer to become a test driver, no harm done, only good things - driving experience worth a lot more than making argument :)

Another quote that might be interesting to look into :

ItsAllAboutWins
I noticed it on Ridox's videos, when down downshifting, the car doesn't rev up at all, but if abs is on 1 it does a slight blip of the throttle no matter when you downshift. So if someone is having problems with sliding going into corners or trail braking, a simple tap of the throttle while downshifting may alleviate it. I don't know how it is with abs 0 but on abs 1, if you press the throttle while braking, the brake over rides the throttle input. May be something worth checking into.
Click to expand...
 
I love GT5's physics, the only thing I can't master (as of yet) is running without ABS, controlling highspeed stops mainly. Unfortunately I haven't masses of time to practice, thats what it boils down to, PRACTICE... and tuning :/
 
noticed some strange behavior Porsche 911. I understand that the engine behind the speed is high (240kmch) And there are bumps on the road, but the front wheels come off the road, the car loses control.I do not think that in reality, this happens.Such a feature has been seen on the GT2, 1995, and the 2007 911 GT3 RS, as well as on the 911 CS car is not upgraded, setting the standard

 
^ That looks quite weird, the front tires lift/float quite high in the air, possibly close to 10 inches above the ground ? and on a slight elevation ... I don't think that's possible in real life, never seen one before. A slight lift is common on Porsches at high speed in real life, but I think mostly will leave floaty/unresponsive steering and maybe only 2 or 3 inches of lift for very short time, not like in that video though :crazy: unless it was a jump.
 
Ridox2JZGTE
^ That looks quite weird, the front tires lift/float quite high in the air, possibly close to 10 inches above the ground ? and on a slight elevation ... I don't think that's possible in real life, never seen one before. A slight lift is common on Porsches at high speed in real life, but I think mostly will leave floaty/unresponsive steering and maybe only 2 or 3 inches of lift for very short time, not like in that video though :crazy: unless it was a jump.
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It doesn't help that the video is all in slow motion, so judging the speed of the car and the duration of the lift is rather difficult. It does however look a lot likeone of the smaller jumps at the ring and I've not come across anything close to a huge exaggeration of lift in the 911s in Forza myself. Will see what I can do to run the test my self later.
 
I thought there was a slight change in grade there which could have caused it.

Shouldnt the test be done with a few vehicles to see if it is just the car?
 
Just tried f4, and honestly got say the simulation was quit a disipointment!. not trying to bash it ethier, it's ok. it just dosen't compare to gt's level. For example wieght transfer on acclaration and on and off throtlle lift out of corner is none exsistat, when tires lose traction on understeer not there ethier. I had all assist off, still felt like tires where not communicateing with driver. the sim is thair but at verey low level compared to gt.
 
What were you driving? It sounds like you've got the two games backwards. GT5 FWD cars are usually on rails. With Forza, they can slide relatively easily.
 
wankal13B
Just tried f4, and honestly got say the simulation was quit a disipointment!. not trying to bash it ethier, it's ok. it just dosen't compare to gt's level. For example wieght transfer on acclaration and on and off throtlle lift out of corner is none exsistat, when tires lose traction on understeer not there ethier. I had all assist off, still felt like tires where not communicateing with driver. the sim is thair but at verey low level compared to gt.
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You must have a very, very different copy of FM4 to me in that case as that sounds utterly opposite to my experience with both titles (particularly in regard to lift off oversteer and grip transition).

As this clearly demonstrates (along with rather clear tyre deformation - something we are still waiting for in GT)



Oh and can you please follow the AUP you agreed to when you joined....

AUP
You will not use “textspeak” (“r”, “u”, “plz”, etc.) in your messages. Decent grammar is expected at all times, including proper usage of capital letters.
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Last edited:
Exorcet
What were you driving. It sounds like you've got the two games backwards. GT5 FWD cars are usually on rails. With Forza, they can slide relatively easily.
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I am curious to see what tires you are talking about when talking about FWD cars spinning out. Say a slalom test basically.
 
Lock2Lock
I am curious to see what tires you are talking about when talking about FWD cars spinning out. Say a slalom test basically.
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Literally less than one minute into FM4 I managed to spin my Ka (it either had stock tires or one grade above) by lifting off mid corner. I've done it with faster cars as well, especially while messing with suspension.

Front heavy AWD cars like the Imprezza also like to lighten up in the rear. Forza may be a little lenient with FR and MR cars, but weight transfer is far more prominent in that game. Pretty much any car on any tire will show more weight transfer in Forza.
 
Exorcet
Literally less than one minute into FM4 I managed to spin my Ka (it either had stock tires or one grade above) by lifting off mid corner. I've done it with faster cars as well, especially while messing with suspension.

Front heavy AWD cars like the Imprezza also like to lighten up in the rear. Forza may be a little lenient with FR and MR cars, but weight transfer is far more prominent in that game. Pretty much any car on any tire will show more weight transfer in Forza.
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Oh ok.

Because I have been able to spin quite a few FWD and AWD cars basically doing a slalom.

With the fact that not one stock car in a street class needs any tire above comfort softs (and barley any need that) this has happened.

I mean the weight transfer in my wheel is pretty accurate to a extent. Maybe not as visible in say on the screen (without a lower spring rate) but on the wheel it is there through feeling.
 
I just compared the Fiat Coupe stock (FM4) to the Golf GTi stock with CS tire (GT5 v 2.09 - because I didn't have a Fiat and there wasn't one in the UCD).

Both run on TGTT. I drove them up to the first turn at full speed, released throttle and turned hard. The Fiat made a mild, but clear slide. The VW kept on rails all the way into the invisible wall.
 
Exorcet
I just compared the Fiat Coupe stock (FM4) to the Golf GTi stock with CS tire (GT5 v 2.09 - because I didn't have a Fiat and there wasn't one in the UCD).

Both run on TGTT. I drove them up to the first turn at full speed, released throttle and turned hard. The Fiat made a mild, but clear slide. The VW kept on rails all the way into the invisible wall.
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Those cars I wouldn't even put comfort softs on them. They do not need it.

But i get what you are saying.

Also I think a lot has to do with the LSD settings and suspension settings too. I just get the feeling that both of those specially the LSD settings are not their true stock setting in GT5.
 
Lock2Lock
Those cars I wouldn't even put comfort softs on them. They do not need it.

But i get what you are saying.

Also I think a lot has to do with the LSD settings and suspension settings too. I just get the feeling that both of those specially the LSD settings are not their true stock setting in GT5.
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Personally I think it has far more to do with the suspension model (which has improved with 2.09 but is still rather basic) and the very, very basic tyre model in GT5.

The suspension model restricts the correct transfer of load and the tyre model once it get past a certain slip angle doesn't react to any form of input correctly. As a result once you get to a state of terminal understeer you are pretty much done in GT5 (oh and neither of these cars should have anything other than an open diff as standard - as such LSD setting shouldn't come into it at all).
 
Scaff
Personally I think it has far more to do with the suspension model (which has improved with 2.09 but is still rather basic) and the very, very basic tyre model in GT5.

The suspension model restricts the correct transfer of load and the tyre model once it get past a certain slip angle doesn't react to any form of input correctly. As a result once you get to a state of terminal understeer you are pretty much done in GT5 (oh and neither of these cars should have anything other than an open diff as standard - as such LSD setting shouldn't come into it at all).
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Agreed.

As you have seen me state before that I mostly drift on GT5.
With that said a lot of people I drift with have found ways to get the same suspension look and feel as the real life drift cars.

Basically just by running a really low spring rate and a crisscross damper settings (as they do in real life) you get the same feeling and look of the suspension while drifting. We all drift on comfort hards by the way for a reference.

Here's a example...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNgABHk8K-M&feature=youtube_gdata_player
@ 4:30-4:55
You will see close up of the car squatting down in the back and the front spring rate/damper settings showing.
In GT5
Basically by running a lower spring rate and crisscross damper settings in the right proportions you can see the same exact thing.

Basically that's why i agree with you. It is mainly the suspension (spring rates/dampers). If you get what I mean.
 
Exorcet
I just compared the Fiat Coupe stock (FM4) to the Golf GTi stock with CS tire (GT5 v 2.09 - because I didn't have a Fiat and there wasn't one in the UCD).

Both run on TGTT. I drove them up to the first turn at full speed, released throttle and turned hard. The Fiat made a mild, but clear slide. The VW kept on rails all the way into the invisible wall.
Click to expand...

I stopped using CS tires on low powered light stock cars. Unrealistic grip level. Comfort Hard is what I use on any car that wouldn't have high performance summer radials in real life. I wish there was a less grippy alternative even.

If ABS is on, any tire slip and weight transfer is dulled down. It almost feels like Skid Recovery Force is on to me now.
 
While this particular test was ABS on, I've driven plenty with it off and down to the lowest grade tires. There really isn't anything that will make GT feel like Forza in my experience. It's also a bit of a strike against GT that you need to turn off ABS to increase realism. Though I guess it's sort of a problem in Forza too, Turn 10 purposely uses a lousy ABS system to make non ABS driving faster than ABS driving, which makes no sense in a simulator.
 
NCRthree
I stopped using CS tires on low powered light stock cars. Unrealistic grip level. Comfort Hard is what I use on any car that wouldn't have high performance summer radials in real life. I wish there was a less grippy alternative even.

If ABS is on, any tire slip and weight transfer is dulled down. It almost feels like Skid Recovery Force is on to me now.
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Agreed
Basically what i meant about my statement about the tires.

I find it funny is that I took a DB9 out of the recommend dealership. Then went full force around Nurburgring Nordschleife. I was amazed on how well it handled. I was like we need less gripper tires for drifting if i can do this.
 
I'm leaning more and more toward the next Forza for my next console street car sim. The tire model alone has me very interested. For sure going to read up on both releases before taking the next gen console plunge.

After driving in GT5 for 2.5 years and over 100,000 miles, I'm of the opinion that all the driving assists ruin the base physics way too much on stock vehicles. There's too much assist in the assists. Especially after 2.09. What street cars have adjustable ABS and brake balance settings? It's silly, I can run a light FR car (Miata) with a B/B of 2/8 perfectly fine with ABS on 1. It shouldn't be drivable with a rear bias like that. At least with ABS on, a logical setting of say 2/0 is more believable if the setting numbers are the least bit representative. Too bad tires lock up so easily, that detracts from any semblance of real life braking.

The assists that are supposed to represent real life assists are just generic approximations no doubt. How could they be true across the board for every vehicle? Turning them all off should be what a stock car's handling characteristics represent closest in GT5's physics. Not saying they are just like the real life car's handling but closer than using assists to mimic the real car's TC, ASM or ABS. So they're rightly called "driver assists". To make it easier for a player to control a video game car.
 
@ above

Honestly I do not have the problem with no ABS. My wheels do not lock up very easily. Even with high brake balance they do not.

If you are on a DS3 I get what you are saying. If you are on a wheel what you are saying doesn't make sense
 
shved111
Real-time video
Click to expand...
It comes off the ground a little more than I would expect (both FM4 and GT5 have issues with how things should work once you get a wheel off the ground - FH deals with that much better), but overall what is occurring is pretty much what you would expect to be occurring for a car with that weight distribution, COG, etc hitting a bump at that speed, The nose will lift a little.
 
To me that looks more like a visual/graphics issue than a physics one. As above that sort of thing could easily happen but there is something not right about how it floats. Physics wise it seems spot on though.
 
Scaff
It comes off the ground a little more than I would expect (both FM4 and GT5 have issues with how things should work once you get a wheel off the ground - FH deals with that much better), but overall what is occurring is pretty much what you would expect to be occurring for a car with that weight distribution, COG, etc hitting a bump at that speed, The nose will lift a little.
Click to expand...

The jump in eiger would be a good example I watched the replay of my car jumping that section and it didnt look right.
 

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