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[Dragonwhisky]

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This week's prize winners are clear to make their selections. Good racing!

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@Worst_Driver @IceWarden @JamCar0ne. Do we really need a conversation for you three?​

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[Worst_Driver]

@Dragonwhisky I probably talk for the three of us by saying no not really

Here is my prize A pick. We are going full classic DTM. Great little car and its available right now for cheap in the LCD.

Mercedes-Benz 190 E 2.5-16 Evolution II '91 (SM Tires) @ Nurburgring Grand Prix Evening S17
Mid div lap time: 2:25
@Akzl298

@A_Higher_Place I hope you can make it this sunday, this one is for you !

 

[A_Higher_Place]

Ahh glad to see the car choice . I will have to wait and see. My partner gets back on Sunday from visiting her friends in Montreal this week so I am not 100% able to commit just yet. Maybe it'll survive a week too!

Would be cool if everyone picked a different dtm livery for this.

 

[Dragonwhisky]

Ahh glad to see the car choice . I will have to wait and see. My partner gets back on Sunday from visiting her friends in Montreal this week so I am not 100% able to commit just yet. Maybe it'll survive a week too!

Would be cool if everyone picked a different dtm livery for this.

Color me not cool then. 🥸

BTW. That Datsun on IAML5 can kiss my marbly white right beside that POF. Did get a 6* RT marathon for my persistent trouble though.

 

[CANOWORMS1]

Just keep in mind that the goal is to have something that works for a wide range of skillsets among the drivers.

Agreed

It’s unlikely that Snail newcomers will be brand new players but we definitely need to make sure that online novices can keep the cars going in a straight line. Not sure how easy a 575pp street car is to drive on SM or SH tires for new drivers. Most of the push is from the super fast guys…I’d like to hear from the D 1.5 guys…even via PM if anonymity is preferred.

I like to call us "D1 Lites", D1.5 works. Maybe D1 2.0. Gentle on the go fast pedal.

There has never been a whole lot of support from the guys of average speed to make the tires more slippery.

The joys of a spec league is we all operate under the same conditions. Slippery tires require more finesse. I remember how slippery cars were when GT7 first came out, Boy did it teach me throttle control. No traction control here...actually not much control at all. 😁

This week’s time trial with the AMG GT Black Series I found to be manageable on SS tires but I know I’m not the average driver.

You are definitely not "the average driver". But, I would like to check out some of these options.

some of the cars we've been running on RH tires are actually harder to drive than on SS tires.

I would be interested in testing some cars that are thought to be easier to handle on more slippery tires. Suggest a combo to test different tires. My fear as a D1.5 racer is the lack of traction exiting corners. Right foot management is critical. And as someone earlier mentioned some of our closest racing has been in 'slippery' cars. I've actually noticed this for some time now.

Part of the problem with racing tires is the brakes remain stock.

Yes. Killer corner exit speeds and crap brakes at the end. Braking points don't change much between tires.

Slippery conditions always compress the field, and for some of us that is scary. Will I get in the way? Am I braking too early? Too late? Please don't let me hit the person in front. Please don't hit me while I try not to hit the person in front of me. Crap! The racing line isn't available. Where is that person who was right on my bumper? ARGH!

All challenging and good fun. That's why I'm here.

 

[Worst_Driver]

Here's my proposal for a change of the tire formula. Of course this is just a basis for discussion. I tested the cutoff cars with a wheel and also with a controller on Grand Valley. I suck big time on a controller, this is way harder than racing with a wheel @Kgffy you are a certified alien to have that pace on a controller.

CS and SH tires stay the same. I increased the limit for SM and especially SS tires.

SM cutoff car: Alfa Romeo 4C '14. The SM tires now include the JDM legends (Mk IV Supra, GTR's and RX7)

SS cutoff car: Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 (C6) '09.

Important to note, the number of road cars includes eligible SNAIL cars only. Race cars tire formula stays the same.

I see five weird outliers that should be on RH tires though: The Kart, the Toyota S-FR Racing Concept (The one we are currently racing), the Honda Civic Type R (EK) Touring car, the Miata Touring Car and the Alpine A220 Race Car. Those cars should be an exception and be on racing hards but if we don't want to deal with exceptions, they should be fine with their new respective tires. (The Kart won't be fine but its a dumpster fire on any tire.)

Why 610PP for SS tires instead of 600? Well I wanted to include the LFA of course Looking back that could be lowered to 595-600 easy.

Personally, above 600+HP, whether they are on SS, RH and RM those cars are hard to handle, but it's the case in real life as well. That 1200+HP Maverick a couple of weeks ago was terrible to drive on RM tires and would have been on any other tire because its a 1200HP muscle car. We have to face the fact that lots of powerful cars are hard to drive and from my part they aren't much fun to race. Slow car fast is way more fun than fast car slow.

So there's my a proposal. For example, we could lower the limit for SM tires to put more cars on SS tires. I'm 100% open to suggestions and feedback from everyone. I like my proposal, but I'm also very fond of @JamCar0ne and @JLBowler idea of racing cars on racing tires and street cars on street tires. This gets pretty close to it while staying fun and accessible for every skill level. Overall, I think the sweet spot for accessibility and fun for everyone lies in between SM and SS tires and I believe this would be right in the middle between every street car on sports tires and the current tire formula.

@CANOWORMS1 Thanks for your feedback, but to add on your comment about close racing with slippery cars, my observation is that the racing is closer when the cars are slower whether. For example, the Celica on SM tires made for much closer racing than the undriveable 1200+ hp Maverick on RM tires. Finally, for a combo suggestion to try, I would try the cutoff cars on Grand Valley on the current tire and the proposed tire see how you like it. There's a lot of slow to mid speed corners at require throttle management on the exit so that will be a good test. I'm looking forward to your feedback.

Sorry for the long post

 

[JamCar0ne]

I like this proposal because you have SS up to 609 PP. There are some great cars in the 600 to 609 range. But the RH range seems a bit limited only going from 610 to 630. Why not up to 650? Not that many street cars in that range as most are Gr.4 and group cars are classified separately.

No matter how you slice it, there will always be outliers in the mix. The Kart is always on SS tires and cannot be changed, so this one is not an issue. The other cars, such as the Toyota S-FR Racing Concept, we raced on SS back at the beginning of GT-Sport and it handled itself well. The A220 Race Car is from 1968, just thinking modern SS tires might have as much grip as race tires did back then. So keep the outliers on SS tires.

Last thing we would want is a special exception list, as that will inevitably put more work on someone's plate. The tire spec needs to be plug-n-play.

 

[Worst_Driver]

Totally agree with your points, no exception as that will be harder to manage. I guess the Civic Touring Car will be fun on SS tires like the Miata Touring Car. Same with the A220, it's a vintage car so SS tires will do the job.

We could push RH tires to 650pp at that point it doesn't make a big difference. The gap between RH and RM is smaller than from SS to RH.

 

[IceWarden]

I will pass the freeze.

 

[JamCar0ne]

Prize C: Freeze the track

 

[JLBowler]

Why 610PP for SS tires instead of 600? Well I wanted to include the LFA of course Looking back that could be lowered to 595-600 easy.

I didn't want to quote the whole post, just the part I have a question about. The LFA is 590PP so why the "need" to go to 610 or is the second part of that you realizing that the LFA is 590 and you could have gone lower?

I have been looking and there is a natural gap in PP at 605 that would be a logical place to draw the line.

The more I think about it, the more I like going back to street cars on sport tires and race cars on racing tires. The only extra work it would require is to create another label in the current Gr. category for other race cars and assign them tires based on that group number. The other issue with this is the VGT cars. A decision would need to be made to classify them as street or race on an individual basis or throw them all into the race category. They aren't selected much and I would prefer to keep it simple with them.

 

[Worst_Driver]

While typing that I thought that the LFA was at 600 but I forgot to correct. Still, from 595 to 610 there are great cars that I wanted to include. But I like where you are going with your idea, that would be simpler as well.

About the VGT cars, we could throw them on RH or just throw them out completely. They are rarely picked and to be honest it wouldn’t be a great loss especially for the guys that are on PSVR2, some of the VGT don’t have cockpit views.

 

[IceWarden]

I am definitely going to choose an obscure, lower powered car. I just hope everyone has it.

 

[Skills]

I remember racing better on slippery tires. Back in the @TEX36 days.

 

[Worst_Driver]

I am definitely going to choose an obscure, lower powered car. I just hope everyone has it.

If you want to increase your chances that everyone has the car, pick one in the current rotation. There are some great slow and obscure cars right now on sale. Anyway, this is right up my alley I’m looking forward to your prize pick.

 

[IceWarden]

Well sadly I am hamstrung in my choices because of this track. I tested several really fun sub 500pp cars but unfortunately this track just isn’t fun with slower cars. Even the mid 500s were ok but I ran into an issue where the cars had very little personality due to having a bit too much traction.

So my one and done Prize B choice:

Alpine A220 Race Car ‘68 on RH tires. Pretty damn lively and it sounds great.

Times probably ranged from 1:45s (fast guys) to my 1:47s.

 

[Dragonwhisky]

OK. So. I just had a WTF moment in GT7. Last night I spent well over my marathon distance getting MIA5 golded. Wasn't looking forward to another POF, in the wet at LeMans, so left it for tonight. Got that one golded in 5.1 miles of tries a few minutes past. As @Marcus Garvey so eloquently put, lolwut?

 

[Marcus Garvey]

OK. So. I just had a WTF moment in GT7. Last night I spent well over my marathon distance getting MIA5 golded. Wasn't looking forward to another POF, in the wet at LeMans, so left it for tonight. Got that one golded in 5.1 miles of tries a few minutes past. As @Marcus Garvey so eloquently put, lolwut?

Funny, was discussing this exact phenomenon the other day. Back when I used to actually teach people how to drive fast, one of the first things we talk about is taking breaks. After going over things like proper seating position, hand placement on the wheel, and even how to operate the wheel(free tip; you push the car into a turn, rather than pull it. Push the car with your left into right hand turns, and vice versa; )we talk about how when you step away from the car( or rig) after driving, your brain processes the information it just received. Even for several hours afterwards. It's doing things in the background while you're making dinner or reading. It stores and learns best while you are sleeping. You should find that after you drive a combo for the first time; the next day you should quickly, often within 5-6 laps, hit your previous best. And you should likely find that you pickup a couple of tenths with ease.

There are variables, like a slow and easy to control car at Tsukuba, or a really slow car at a track with a lot of time at full throttle. Those you may not see much difference between sessions, or even get slower because those combos are more about timing your WOT application than increasing entry and cornering speeds, but I digress...you should see a measureable gain like you experienced when you revisit a combo after a rest that you just drove for the first time. It's the same thing in play that makes pulling an all nighter to crunch for a test the next day a futile effort. Without time for your brain to process, prioritise, and commit the information you are giving it, you won't be able to capitalise on much of it.

Even with practice sessions, I recommend taking a few minutes every 20. Folks may notice I typically run 5-10 laps for a warmup and then take a couple minutes to let that marinate. Then I'll usually not drive for more than 20 mins at a time unless I'm doing half distance runs for an enduro or something. I take a smoke break every 20 minutes or so. Get up, walk around, grab a beer, check this thread, troll some folks on the roadrace forum, argue with the dog, whatever you gotta do lol.

The rewards are diminished the more you drive a combo, but still there. That is why you'll notice you don't see the same gains over the following days as fewer revelations about the combo are discovered each day. But, there is still an advantage. For example, someone who has driven a combo a half hour a night for the past five nights is at a significant advantage over the same person who just spent 2.5 hours practicing late Sunday afternoon for the Sunday evening races. This isn't a secret, folks here have figured that out in the past. I think a lot of folks can recall circumstances in years past where combo choices were withheld until the final minutes on Thursday. That was like blatantly obvious lol.

Applies in real life when you are at a new track, or in a new car as well. Maybe later if I haven't already used all the ink on this page, I'll tell the relevant story of a total mental breakdown on the grid and the fastest I've ever seen an S2000 spin before.

 

[Worst_Driver]

Well sadly I am hamstrung in my choices because of this track. I tested several really fun sub 500pp cars but unfortunately this track just isn’t fun with slower cars. Even the mid 500s were ok but I ran into an issue where the cars had very little personality due to having a bit too much traction.

So my one and done Prize B choice:

Alpine A220 Race Car ‘68 on RH tires. Pretty damn lively and it sounds great.

Times probably ranged from 1:45s (fast guys) to my 1:47s.

I noticed since GT Sport that it's harder to find tracks that are fun with slower cars. Trial Mountain and Deep Forest used to be tighter and twistier but since GT7 they stretched them out so long that they are boring. Lago Maggiore variants, Laguna Seca, Brands Hatch Indy and Nurburgring Sprint seem to be the ticket for slower cars.

For an obscure car, you got one there. Fingers crossed that most of us have it. Nice pick by the way !

 

[Akzl298]

Gran Turismo 7
Sunday, November 12th, 2023 Lineup
November 2023 Season League Night #2
​

1. Mercedes-Benz 190 E 2.5-16 Evolution II '91 on SM Tires @ Nurburgring Grand Prix Track - S17 Evening - (6 Laps)​

2. Toyota S-FR Racing Concept '16 on RH Tires @ Trial Mountain Circuit - S01 Evening - (7 Laps)​

3. Alpine A220 Race Car '68 on RH Tires @ Sardegna - Road Track Layout A Reverse - S11 Evening - (9 Laps)​

​

 

[CANOWORMS1]

@CANOWORMS1 Thanks for your feedback, but to add on your comment about close racing with slippery cars, my observation is that the racing is closer when the cars are slower whether. For example, the Celica on SM tires made for much closer racing than the undriveable 1200+ hp Maverick on RM tires. Finally, for a combo suggestion to try, I would try the cutoff cars on Grand Valley on the current tire and the proposed tire see how you like it. There's a lot of slow to mid speed corners at require throttle management on the exit so that will be a good test. I'm looking forward to your feedback.

Yes, slower cars make for closer racing.

SM cutoff car: Alfa Romeo 4C '14. The SM tires now include the JDM legends (Mk IV Supra, GTR's and RX7)

SS cutoff car: Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 (C6) '09.

I tried the above cars at Grand Valley. My problem is I'm still learning how to drive and my consistency isn't the greatest, so I'm not the best trust pilot out there.

Alfa 4C SM vs SS: I felt more in control on SS, but that doesn't mean I'm more competitive, just more comfortable. On SM there was noticeable understeer on corner exit meaning more patience was required. I think I'm pretty good at squeezing the throttle instead of hammering the go-fast pedal, so no spins on exit with either tires. Better able to negotiate last corner in the tunnel on SS, but that means less skill required.

Corvette SS vs RM: (this car felt awful compared to the Alfa) Sort of the same scenario here as well. However, the RM tires required a greater braking distance, I assume due to the greater exit speeds coming onto long straights.

In both cases the harder tires required more finesse and patience with braking and accelerating and I felt I was more on the edge, which is what you want to be. Too comfortable means too slow. (Within reason). I think harder tires make it easier for D1 Lites to make mistakes and get out of shape, not good in reverse grid starts.

As others have mentioned, the combo that gets voted out often has some of the closest racing, but many of us have a hard time with that feeling of lack of control. My experience is that I'm farther off the pace as the grip of the car goes up, and that in high down force cars (Super formula, Red Bull formula cars) I'm pathetic.

I remember when GT7 first came out there was considerable discussion about the lack of traction, but did it ever teach me throttle control. When grip was increased it felt like going from summer tires to studded tires on icy roads. (That might be a Canadian thing 😀).

How would I vote? I would probably let the veteran drivers decide and live with the outcome. I'm pretty crappy on all tires. Harder tires will lead to slower drivers (D1 Lite) having more serious offs, but may lead to better car control in the long run. As always I'll follow the majority of the drivers in Snail, whether on the track or in making league decisions. Rock on Snailiens.

 

[Worst_Driver]

Interesting thoughts, thanks for your detailed opinion and testing ! Like you said, I also noticed that with high powerer high downforce cars, the field is more spread out. I think with harder tires, slower cars will get more interest from prize winners because everyone will be confortable with them instead of picking a high power car that is difficult to handle for everyone.

 

[JLBowler]

The racing is closer when more drivers can get closer to the full potential of the car. The more challenging it it is to drive the car, the fewer people can get close to the full potential.

This is true across the board no matter what variable presents the challenge.

 

[JLBowler]

Second point. If you want a bunch of credits, check out the Fiat vs Tomahawk grind. You can engine swap an Abarth and define Tomahawks for the custome race at Daytona Oval. I'm making 892k credits every 15 minutes with rubber bands on the controller.

 

[Dragonwhisky]

Second point. If you want a bunch of credits, check out the Fiat vs Tomahawk grind. You can engine swap an Abarth and define Tomahawks for the custome race at Daytona Oval. I'm making 892k credits every 15 minutes with rubber bands on the controller.

Gonna fiddle with this in the morning.

 

[Worst_Driver]

Hurry up because PD is aware of that glitch and will patch it soon.

 

[Dragonwhisky]

Hurry up because PD is aware of that glitch and will patch it soon.

Yeah. I read that whole thread last night. Got some work to do first. Gotta get the CE on Daytona. ✅ Do I just need to gold the oval? There is no oval CE. Gotta pick up the fiat and tomahawk✅, set them up for the event✅. Do I need 19 tomahawks or just the one will do? Gotta set up motion sensing steering so I can skip the band for that.✅ Not sure how to do that.

 

[Worst_Driver]

Yeah. I read that whole thread last night. Got some work to do first. Gotta get the CE on Daytona. Do I just need to gold the oval? Gotta pick up the fiat and tomahawk, set them up for the event. Do I need 19 tomahawks or just the one will do? Gotta set up motion sensing steering so I can skip the band for that. Not sure how to do that.

You just need one and you will tune it to make it slower like cutting power, reducing the first 7 gears ratios and extending the last gear to the max making the top speed less than 120 mph. As for the CE, if I remember correctly it is on the road course and not the oval.
With that said, I wish you happy credit farming !

 

[JLBowler]

Hurry up because PD is aware of that glitch and will patch it soon.

Soon to PD is very different than soon to the rest of us. Some of the items on that known issue list have been there for a very long time. Even if it is patched, the Tomahawk still sits at over 1100pp so the difference will still be pretty substantial.

Surely PD won't go back to calculating transmission and suspension settings into PP and reopen all the other old glitches.

 

[Dragonwhisky]

Not sure if I can stand this much hilariousness! Gonna grin about this the rest of the day though.