2010 Brazilian Grand Prix
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Peter
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On the other hand, I want Alonso to take the championship. Maybe not in Brazil, but at least come out of this race comfortable. If he gains 14 points over Webber, Webber's out, any points over Vettel, Vettel's out. As long as Alons ocan finish in the high points, he'll take this championship.
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He may not be able to rely on Massa:
http://tazio.uol.com.br/f-1/textos/22175/
A prosecutor in Sao Paulo has said that if Massa assists Alonso in any way, he'll be arrested for fraud and/or conspiracy to commit fraud.
http://tazio.uol.com.br/f-1/textos/22175/
A prosecutor in Sao Paulo has said that if Massa assists Alonso in any way, he'll be arrested for fraud and/or conspiracy to commit fraud.
What the hell!
Barra333
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- barra333
Wow.
If that was the case in all countries hosting a GP, it would certainly discourage 'team orders'. But then again, teams would just disguise it better and come up with better code than:
"Fernando is faster than you. Do you understand this message?"
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I honestly believe Alonso won't take the win this time, just by judging on all Jinxing we're doing to him, he'll be out of the race in the first lap. 
Sadly though, he is the hell out of a talented driver, Webber and Vettel must push hard and consistently to outrun him not to talk about Massa's defense on Alonso's title, F1 has became such a ridiculous spetacle to watch. 
Sadly though, he is the hell out of a talented driver, Webber and Vettel must push hard and consistently to outrun him not to talk about Massa's defense on Alonso's title, F1 has became such a ridiculous spetacle to watch.
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Barra333
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Yes, but i cant really see a charge like that making it all the way through to a court. I think the main function would be to scare the living daylights out of them.
And the tifosi are quite a passionate bunch aren't they?
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- Ardius_
Not going to get very far though is it, what is the fraud being committed? They may have had a case before Hockenheim, but now that the FIA has admitted that "banning" team orders isn't realistic, its up to the audience to decide whether they watch it or not, its not about it being an individual sport.
Lets repeat again, this sport has never been about individuals. Its a competition between teams. The quicker people recognise this, the better.
I don't think Massa is too worried about this, he of course has Ferrari to provide his lawyers.
Seriously, get over yourselves. Why should the fans lynch Ferrari? The fans should lynch the "fans" pretending that Ferrari are "disgracing" the sport by using one silly team order at one event this year.
Change the tune and just accept that what Massa/Ferrari did is simply a side effect of the sport. You cannot have your purist vision of everyone racing everyone and the teams not influencing anything at all. It just isn't going to happen.
The true tifosi would accept Ferrari's tactics as they have been Ferrari's tactics for a very, very long time. To only realise they use them now says a lot about the supposed "fan".
So, Sureboss, you've been asked/responded too several times now with no answer from yourself. Where have HRT been unprofessional or displayed poor management and why?
I wouldn't say any of the 3 new teams really fit those descriptions, all of them have been fairly professional and organised. There was potential for HRT to suffer poor management with the multiple-owners but it seems they (for now) are ok. Colin Kolles has displayed very good management with what he has got.
Virgin have made 1 major mistake but they recovered from it and HRT have dragged what remained of Campos through a full season with only the odd mistake which is perfectly normal for a mostly rookie team. Both Virgin and HRT have relied on pay drivers to make ends meet but again this isn't out of the ordinary for a new, small team. Renault, Force India and Toro Rosso also have pay drivers.
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- Ardius_
Williams don't employ a pay driver currently.
Sauber only recieved a small amount from the Burger King Spain deal with De La Rosa, not really a "pay driver" as such. Kobayashi got some small amount of cash from some shampoo company too, so I guess he is a pay driver. Sauber were actually funded mostly by BMW this season, just like Honda-Brawn.
Sauber only recieved a small amount from the Burger King Spain deal with De La Rosa, not really a "pay driver" as such. Kobayashi got some small amount of cash from some shampoo company too, so I guess he is a pay driver. Sauber were actually funded mostly by BMW this season, just like Honda-Brawn.
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It probably won't go to a court, but it would cause Ferrari a lot of problems. They don't need one of their drivers accused of criminal activity; it would really damage their credibility and ruin Alonso's title. It would damage Formula 1, too.
Apparently there is a law in Brazil known as Estatuto do torcedor (roughly translated as "rooter's statute", I'm told) that is designed to protect the rights of spectators at sporting events. From what has been explained to me, the use of team orders would be considered fraud because it would deny spectators the right to see a fair and even competition. If spectators go to the race, then they are expecting to see a race. Artificially manipulating the outcome is in direct contrivance to that. Even if the FIA has admitted that banning team order is impractical, the rule itself has not been revoked. Until such time as the FIA changes it, the rule is still in effect. And because the sporting code currently bans team orders, then spectators in Brazil would have the right to see a race that is free of manipulation.
That said, I don't expect much to come of this, primarily because I don't expect to see Massa in front of Alonso.
When I said "lynch", I was exaggerating. When Massa lost the 2008 title, the first thing he did was send his brother down to Toyota with a box of Ferrari shirts and instructions not to be seen leaving the circuit in Toyota clothing because they might be met with reprisals. There was a conspiracy theory that claimed Glock was made to move over and let Hamilton through (though Hamilton getting by was largely down to the state of Glock's tyres). If Massa was afraid the Brazilian spectators might mob Toyota because Hamilton got past Glock, I don't see any reason as to why they wouldn't have a go at Alonso and/or the rest of Ferrari for what they would perceive as the team making Massa move aside in favour of Alonso.
No, I won't simply roll over and accept it. I believe that while Formula 1 is a team sport, it is the individual drivers who are competing first, and that each driver should have a right to his own race without interference from the team. To manipulate race results removes the point of racing.
Then the true tifiosi are just as corrupt as Ferrari.
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I think you just don't understand that a tiffoso loves his team, not its "players", nothing more than temporary idols. Did you ever think the tiffosi loved Schumi? Kimi? Do you think they love Alonso? In fact they aren't more than the latest champions "produced" by their beloved red cars. Drivers come and go, the team is what matters and will ever matter.
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Oh, I know exactly what the tifiosi are all about. But the fact is, they suport Ferrari through thick and thin, no matter what. If Ferrari were caught with McLaren's technical data, the tifiosi would see no problem with it. If it was a Ferrari that deliberately crashed in Singapore to aid his team-mate, the tifiosi would thik it was perfectly justified. Sure, you might get one or two dissenters who have issues with those tactics, but the tifiosi as a whole would most likely raise no objections. They seem to have the attitude of it not being a crime if Ferrari do it.
Anes
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Webber calling out Vettel favouritism again: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorsp...astian-vettel-20101105-17gd8.html?from=smh_sb
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- Ardius_
Sorry for not replying in the 3 hours between my post and yours. I'll remember to not do anything other than be logged on to GTP next time.
Their driver situation shows a terrible exhibition of man management.
Actually your first post was on Thursday and the last one was yesterday. And it wasn't just me responding to/asking why you thought this. You made two posts just stating "poor management" with no reasoning, its logical to ask why.
And you still haven't really, why is their driver situation a display of bad management?
You can believe what you like, but since no one has suggested a way of ridding of team orders its impractical to demand it and tiresome to use it as criticism against one team....
You choose to ignore that Ferrari have used team orders since they have existed...the tifosi don't. Why should the tifosi/fans suddenly decide to be angered at Ferrari team orders now? Kind of 50+ years too late? (and as I and others have noted, not a crime that Ferrari only is guilty of).
I don't believe teams admitting they are going to switch drivers around is fraud. Fraud is a form of deception and if the teams are admitting they are going to use team orders, there is no deception. This is the point, the FIA should never have banned team orders in the first place because it creates a fraud when there is none.
In any case, its highly unlikely anyone will be prosecuted and probably simply a case of publicity stunt.
Hang on, one minute you are saying the fans/Tifosi are going to lynch Ferrari and now you think they are blind and biased? Make up your mind.
And at least try to spell Tifosi right too.
No, Williams pay Hulkenburg to drive for them.
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The Red Bull - Webber relationship is bordering on untenable. I know he has a contract with them next year, but it seems to beggar belief that he doesn't want to rip out the throat of the management there. Practice should be interesting.
Ardius - Because they have no consistency, the drivers don't seem to know themselves when they are racing. Picking drivers on an ad-hoc basis makes the sport look amateurish. Bernie isn't popular, I don't agree with everything he says and the manner in which he says it, but it'd be no loss to F1 if HRT weren't racing next year. That said, for the point of having 24 cars on the grid, I hope they sort themselves out.
There was I suspecting rain. Dry practice.
Ardius - Because they have no consistency, the drivers don't seem to know themselves when they are racing. Picking drivers on an ad-hoc basis makes the sport look amateurish. Bernie isn't popular, I don't agree with everything he says and the manner in which he says it, but it'd be no loss to F1 if HRT weren't racing next year. That said, for the point of having 24 cars on the grid, I hope they sort themselves out.
There was I suspecting rain. Dry practice.
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- Ardius_
Its not a case of "oh, lets let Klien drive today" though, its a case of money. If Yamamoto's money doesn't appear in the bank..then do you let him drive anyway?
No, you let Klien drive and take some extra money from whatever sponsors he has behind him.
It would be bad management to ignore the money and try to run "consistent" drivers when its irrelevant who is in the car as it is so slow.
Bernie is simply making the same old statements that have some hidden agenda. Clearly he wanted HRT to pay him some money or show some activity or something along those lines. It worked anyway, as we now have this Williams gearbox announcement.
No, you let Klien drive and take some extra money from whatever sponsors he has behind him.
It would be bad management to ignore the money and try to run "consistent" drivers when its irrelevant who is in the car as it is so slow.
Bernie is simply making the same old statements that have some hidden agenda. Clearly he wanted HRT to pay him some money or show some activity or something along those lines. It worked anyway, as we now have this Williams gearbox announcement.
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For the record, lots of very talented and even super-star drivers bring personal sponsorship packages with them, which can aid their teams. Even Ayrton Senna had an on/off deal with Segafredo, for example. It's just that the super-talented can name their price to the sponsors, rather than the other way around.
Pay-drivers are really just those who come on board with a lesser resume and slower test times and have more sponsorship money. Look at how long Andrea de Cesaris was in the sport, for example...his family was a big Marlboro concessionaire in Italy, although he was a regular mid-fielder with some talent and promise, and drove with no-holds-barred (although some called it no-hands-on-the-wheel).
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Petrov just wrecked his car...again.
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He'll be paying for that crash...
MarkWebber
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Mark finishing 2nd behind Vettel this wekend is obviously a real possibility, considering RB's early dominance in Practice 1, and it would practically mean that all 3 of them will be on equal points if Alonso finishes 4th or 5th.
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The level of animosity towards Alonso in these forums is just silly at times.
I hope he wins on Sunday thus rendering any teamorder and fixing the championshionship discussions redundant.
I hope he wins on Sunday thus rendering any teamorder and fixing the championshionship discussions redundant.
MarkWebber
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I have faith than one of the 2 RB's will do the job this weekend, which would mean the championship will go down to the wire next weekend.
