2011 Brazilian Grand Prix

[Centura]

I think they did in that case. I seem to remember them saying "mind the gap. This is a team order".

Could be wrong.

Actually, I was pointing out that they used it at the 2011 British Grand Prix and if they wanted to use team orders at the 2011 Brazilian Grand Prix, they would've. Sorry for not making it clearer.

"Mark, maintain the gap."
"Mark, you need to maintain the gap."

Anyway, why would they "fake" a gearbox issue already at lap 5?
It's also nothing new that Webber suffer in the first stint, but this time he actually had a good shot at winning the race, even without Vettel's gearbox problem.

 

[Peter.]

People have forgotten the behind the bad luck and Vettel bias in the team ,we have a very fast and very talented driver who almost won the championship last year, through no luck or cheating or anything of that sort. Webber is perfectly capable of winning a race, I seriously doubt Red Bull, who are already shamelessly biased towards fingerboy, would ever call team orders on fingerboy, just to let Webber win for a change.

He had a gearbox problem, Red Bull told him to short shift, and he foolishly didn't, and almost cost them a good result, and Webber a 3rd place in the championship.

 

[Sach]

Both during and after the race, Coulthard and Brundle said Vettel's gearbox was almost out of oil. I really don't think they made it up.

 

[Tired Tyres]

You obviously have a short memory. Cast your mind back to Barcelona 2010. Vettel was managing a brake problem but was still on the radio asking about the fastest lap time. Likewise, Canada 2010 Vettel had a gearbox issue, and the team's response was "Don't even think about it".

Neither of which have anything at all to do with Brazil 2011 mate.

 

[F1 fan]

Neither of which have anything at all to do with Brazil 2011 mate.

Both involved Vettel trying to set the fastest lap while suffering a mechanical failure. Which you somehow refuse to believe happened in Brazil. It has everything to do with it.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Both involved Vettel trying to set the fastest lap while suffering a mechanical failure. Which you somehow refuse to believe happened in Brazil. It has everything to do with it.

Yes? He can do the same thing in 2012/2013/2014 for all I care. I was talking about BRAZIL 2011. Nothing else.

 

[F1 fan]

Yes? He can do the same thing in 2012/2013/2014 for all I care. I was talking about BRAZIL 2011. Nothing else.

Then you're foolish. You're saying that you don't believe for one second that something that has already happened elsewhere happened in Brazil. There's no point in talking with someone like you if you aren't willing to listen to reason.

 

[Alex.]

People have forgotten the behind the bad luck and Vettel bias in the team ,we have a very fast and very talented driver who almost won the championship last year, through no luck or cheating or anything of that sort. Webber is perfectly capable of winning a race, I seriously doubt Red Bull, who are already shamelessly biased towards fingerboy, would ever call team orders on fingerboy, just to let Webber win for a change.

He had a gearbox problem, Red Bull told him to short shift, and he foolishly didn't, and almost cost them a good result, and Webber a 3rd place in the championship.

You have no place to discuss bias.

 

[Peter.]

You have no place to discuss bias.

Oh, and why is that so?

 

[Alex.]

Because your views are not fair. Often enough it comes across that the drivers you support can do no wrong, Bruno for instance, yet you have an argument for Vettel every day of the week. What I'm saying is you can't call someone out for being biased if you yourself are equally as biased against them. Webber is not as quick as Vettel, he has the same car. That is something pretty much no one can deny now.

I often respect some of your opinions, but if you want to continue gaining further respect from GTP members for your F1 views I suggest you don't refer to drivers with names like Fingerboy too often. It gives the impression of a dislike for him, which is fair enough if you do, but it makes it so obvious and therefore lessens people's expectations of a fair argument from yourself.

 

[Peter.]

Fingerboy? Just a nickname I picked up from a different forum, not necessarily meant to be insulting.

Anyway, back to my bias. It's called defense of my drivers that I support. More often than not, people like Senna and Webber are criticized an awful lot, when they do really have a fair bit against them. Senna jumped into the car mid season, and is criticized a lot for not beating Petrov, and throwing away points. Webber on the other hand, is so very clearly number 2 in that team, and even when he was beating Vettel for a lot of 2010, Red Bull still pushed fingerboy forward. Team orders in Brazil probably would have won Webber the title, or at least given Red Bull a stronger chance at winning the title going into Abu Dhabi last year. Sure they didn't pay the price for that decision, but if Alonso didn't have problems with Vitaly, they would have.

It's not like they can do no wrong, but there is a lot of what I believe to be unfair criticism directed at them. Want me to be more honest about how bad they were this year? Webber's performance at Italy this year was a joke, and Senna forgetting to brake into turn 1 at Spa was a disappointing mistake he should be embarrassed for.

 

[F1 fan]

A lot of ifs and buts Peter. Red Bull didn't use team orders in Brazil last year as both drivers were in with a shot of winning the title. And as we all know, they made the right decision in the end. And it's not like Webber was robbed, as he had a disastrous race in Abu Dhabi which was his own fault. As for the Vettel bias, if you look at the sheer statistics from 2009 to now, you'll see that Vettel has truly earned his number one status the hard way. Results. And that's what matters. Vettel alone won more points this season than Alonso and Massa. If Webber had scored 0 points, Red Bull would still have been second in the constructors championship(assuming Alonso and Massa scored the same number), which is where the team make their money.

I agree with Alex here. You need to lay off the bias a little bit. I used to wear my heart on my sleeve on this forum, and it only resulted in a lot of arguements. I have also made it clear that there is one driver in particular who I hate. I even have a nickname for him, but it's in clear breach of the aup. Just take a chill pill every now and then.

 

[niky]

Yes? He can do the same thing in 2012/2013/2014 for all I care. I was talking about BRAZIL 2011. Nothing else.

Like F1 Fan says... if you want to prove conspiracy, you have to show precedent that Vettel does NOT drive flat out to get fastest laps or possibly wins with a broken car.

I remember the first time he had something major break on his championship winning car (an exhaust), he set fastest sector times (his first sector was two to three tenths clear of everyone else) and still came in fourth... rolling to a stop after the line.

Vettel doesn't give up. His team might get furious with him for ignoring broken stuff on his car, but he doesn't give up.

 

[Imari]

There would need to be a serious amount of collusion within the team to create a gearbox problem, and hide it from the drivers afterwards. I bet Vettel would have been back in the pits demanding answers as to what went wrong and why he wasn't allowed to go faster after the race.

And I'm pretty sure both Vettel and Webber would be furious if they found out that the team tinkered with the race results for no particularly good reason. Vettel, because he's a bit of a competitive soul and he'd be pissed at having more records taken from him. Webber, because he's a staunch sort of fellow and doesn't want his wins handed to him. Webber would probably be more pissed off at having won thanks to team interference than had he just come second on his own merit. It would suck, but there's not much honour lost in losing to Sebastian Vettel at this point.

The team would have to be grade A morons to risk angering both their drivers (including their double world champion) by faking a gearbox issue. It was simply a convenient mishap, at a time of the season when many teams started to experience mechanical failures.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Then you're foolish. You're saying that you don't believe for one second that something that has already happened elsewhere happened in Brazil. There's no point in talking with someone like you if you aren't willing to listen to reason.

Like F1 Fan says... if you want to prove conspiracy, you have to show precedent that Vettel does NOT drive flat out to get fastest laps or possibly wins with a broken car.

I remember the first time he had something major break on his championship winning car (an exhaust), he set fastest sector times (his first sector was two to three tenths clear of everyone else) and still came in fourth... rolling to a stop after the line.

Vettel doesn't give up. His team might get furious with him for ignoring broken stuff on his car, but he doesn't give up.

Both of you are missing the point. It is a single issue at a single moment in time, at the end of a season when it does not matter. Nothing that has happened before this has any relevance to it.

There is no conspiracy here.

@F1 Fan. I find your posting style aggressive. Is this you intention?

 

[F1 fan]

Both of you are missing the point. It is a single issue at a single moment in time, at the end of a season when it does not matter. Nothing that has happened before this has any relevance to it.

I fail to see how precedent just goes out the window because it's the end of the season.

@F1 Fan. I find your posting style aggressive. Is this you intention?

Not at all. Got in enough stupid arguements on gtp over the summer.

 

[Pupik]

This is a new low for F1-based discussion on our forums: This race was actually not that important nor exciting, no matter how much the announcers trumped it up. It wasn't boring, but it was hardly controversial. Anyone else up for discussing the trivially mundane for a few more pages?

This bone doesn't have any meat on it anymore, but you dogs have been chewing on it for five days now.

 

[daan]

I think these threads are less about the race and more of an F1 general discussion thread that happens to get renewed every fortnight or so. Most of them go along the lines of F1 news discussion - race (where everyone posts the same thing about events that we're all watching...) - F1 news discussion - new thread - repeat.