2012 F1 Mechanics: designs and pieces that will win WDC & WCC

[Peter.]

I honestly don't think Saward is a bad journalist. His insight into the going-ons is unmatched by any author, even if things don't necessarily turn out exactly how he predicted. You're the kind of person, though, who takes whatever dirt you can get about a driver/team/journalist and multiply it to make the person seem far worse than they actually are, if at all bad.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Ow. I just fell out of my chair, laughing.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I agree with PM on this one, but at the same time (especially you PM, I expected better) there is no reason to get off topic. If I'd name any independent blog I'd say ScarbsF1 does a better job of getting info especially the technical stuff to the fans that Saward in five years would. Also what technical inovation has ferrari brought forth in F1 that puts them on at least the radar screen for WDC or even WCC next year...other than being Ferrari?

 

[hampus_dh]

Money isn´t everything. The people in the team far exceeds any money in the world.

Toyota used to spend more then Ferrari and Mclaren yet never got a single win under their belt.
And this was during the period where there was no limit at all on how much you could spend.

 

[Seismica]

Money isn´t everything. The people in the team far exceeds any money in the world.

Toyota used to spend more then Ferrari and Mclaren yet never got a single win under their belt.
And this was during the period where there was no limit at all on how much you could spend.

You missed my point. It doesn't matter how talented their people are, if they don't have the money they can't make a good car. Toyota had the money but had various other problems. You think Red Bull, with Newey and his team, could have got this far with the budget of a small team? Williams need the budget Maldonado brings just to maintain what they have now. Rumour has it Maldonado brings around $40million of revenue, that's probably between a third and a half of their entire budget.

Have enough problems making a Formula student car on £25k... Our car is going to be so much heavier simply because we can't afford the exotic materials that the other teams can. Thats before we even start on the design. Back to F1... Last year, Lotus/Team Lotus were using steel for their wishbones, for example. The primary limiting factor is cost.

 

[hampus_dh]

I think Newey and the boys would build one hell of a car that would be way better then any of the starter teams cars with the same budget yes.

 

[Seismica]

I think Newey and the boys would build one hell of a car that would be way better then any of the starter teams cars with the same budget yes.

A lower team budget wouldn't cover the salaries of Newey's team and the facitilites they require, never mind the cost of building the car.

 

[hampus_dh]

A lower team budget wouldn't cover the salaries of Newey's team and the facitilites they require, never mind the cost of building the car.

You miss the point though.

If newey and the guys had the same pay, the same budget, the same means to build a car it would be drastically better car then the backmarker teams.

That is because brains are worth far more then money.

Again its the same deal with the top teams.
Even if you have loads of money, it is not a garantuee for racewins.

its the same if you go the other way.
Tje design philosophy, experience is something you can't buy off the shelves or make. its people that carries that information.

 

[hampus_dh]

They're not going to get podium finishes without money to develop the car.

You could throw all the money in the world at williams, they would still not win any races.

Williams us not what it used to be. They do not have the best people around aswell.

They have their history and that's about it.

 

[hampus_dh]

But they can certainly do better than five points in a single year. Their back-row lock-out in Abu Dhabi was the low point of their lowest season to date (though, admittedly, that had more to do with Cosworth than any degree of incompetence in the team). The deal with QNB to get Raikkonen into the car is said to be worth $30 million. And the arrangement with PDVSA to keep Maldonado in the car is believed to be worth $15 million. Replacing Maldonado with Raikkonen will automatically cut out one-third of their revenue stream.

Yea it can only get better but i think they need to re-think their philosophy in terms of designing the cars.

Great stuff with the extremely short gearbox but looking back it seems it was a waste of money that could have been spent on the windtunnel for example.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Yea it can only get better but i think they need to re-think their philosophy in terms of designing the cars.

They've had a technical overhaul for 2012.

Great stuff with the extremely short gearbox but looking back it seems it was a waste of money that could have been spent on the windtunnel for example.

That's not how it works at all. You don't just stick the car in a windtunnel, turn the wind tunnel on, leave it running for a few hours and when you come back, you have a better car. It's not a cake. The windtunnel only provides feedback on what it working and what is not. It's up to the team to use that feedback to make the car design better.

Williams have also been hurt this year by the use of off-throttle blown diffusers. Hispania first raised objections to it at the Spanish Grand Prix. It quickly became evident that Cosworth simply couldn't make their engine maps work. One of the reasons why Valterri Bottas is doing quite well in the young driver tests is that a lot of the teams are experimenting with "periscope" exhaust outlets to see how they will affect car balance and performance next season. Because of that, they're not blowing their diffusers (even if they have a higher engine map, the exhaust gas isn't being used), and so lose downforce.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Several teams have already expressed a desire to run them, considering that the ban on blown diffusers will cut out a lot of their downforce.

 

[hampus_dh]

Several teams have already expressed a desire to run them, considering that the ban on blown diffusers will cut out a lot of their downforce.

Yea but has any team apart from Williams actually run it?

I'm sure the williams system was a dummy aswell and will look very different to what they will run in 2012.

Should also be said that even if the gases are now not affecting the diffuser and stops teams from creating artificially bigger diffusers then they actually have (RBR) there are other possibilities that might emerge from this.

Like blowing the rear wing etc,

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Like blowing the rear wing etc,

There is a total ban on blowing exhaust gasses over parts of the car.

 

[Ardius]

There is a total ban on blowing exhaust gasses over parts of the car.

No, there is a ban on throttle-overrun and a dictated position for the exhausts. Its still possible that Williams or others might be seeing if they can blow the exhaust in such a way around the rear of the car that it can influence the aero. It certainly looks that way with those currently at Abu Dhabi.
I mean such a rule as you have worded would be pretty impossible as the exhaust is always going to "blow over parts of the car" unless its positioned immediately after the diffuser.

Whether its actually effective I'm doubtful, just from looks alone I would have thought whatever hot gases come out would have very minor effects to the aero when they are positioned so far away from any of the surfaces. But then I'm not an aerodynamicst and I don't have Williams' windtunnel data. It wouldn't be surprising that the teams would try and keep this particular development of trying to use the hot air.

 

[hampus_dh]

There is a total ban on blowing exhaust gasses over parts of the car.

Doesn't matter where you put the exhaust on the car, they will blow over something.
You can do many tricks to divert the gases towards the rear wing. it has been done before.

You will see when 2012 starts FIA can write whatever rules they want but F1 teams have people that do nothing but find loopholes.

 

[Seismica]

There is a total ban on blowing exhaust gasses over parts of the car.

This was the original plan yes, but that was changed, not sure why.

I think the new rules state that it must exit on the top of the bodywork, vertically. There will still be loopholes to exploit though. Hats off to Williams for testing theirs out now. They could even test it in Brazil. After all, they're hardly going to change their constructor's position.

 

[The Outlaw]

Williams have also been hurt this year by the use of off-throttle blown diffusers. Hispania first raised objections to it at the Spanish Grand Prix. It quickly became evident that Cosworth simply couldn't make their engine maps work.

+1

Now that they have Renault onboard for next year, added to the fact that the EBD will be erradicated, I feel there is hope for Williams in 2012.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

This was the original plan yes, but that was changed, not sure why.

No, it's completely banned. Some of the teams tried to get the ban relaxed a little, but Ferrari, Sauber and Hispania shot it down before the race in Abu Dhabi.

 

[Ardius]

Sigh, again, simply dumping a Renault (and a Red Bull gearbox) in the back didn't exactly propel Lotus anywhere did it?
Considering there are no throttle-blown diffusers next year, surely the difference between Renault and Cosworth (or any other engine) will be less not more?

I hope Williams improve I really do. But people need to stop talking about this engine change like its almost success ensured. People said the same things about the Toyota back in 2006.

Red Bull had the very same Renault engine in 2008 and struggled to even beat Toro Rosso, the engine almost means nothing at all.

I absolutely hate the fact people still wish to pin a sizable amount of success or failure on engines. If Williams suceed, it will be the Renault engine that brought them sucess. If they continue to fail, it will be all Williams' fault. Its the package as a whole, the engine is close to being irrelevant these days.

 

[Seismica]

No, it's completely banned. Some of the teams tried to get the ban relaxed a little, but Ferrari, Sauber and Hispania shot it down before the race in Abu Dhabi.

I'm confused, are you referring to blowing exhaust gases when off-throttle? I'm guessing that this is the case and I simply misunderstood.

A complete ban on any/all exhuast gases going over parts of the car would involve putting the exhaust exit behind the diffuser as Ardius stated, and i'm almost certain that was shot down too. This is backed up by the fact Williams' were testing a 'periscope' exhaust in Abu Dhabi, which wouldn't make sense if the regulations had forbidden it.

Sigh, again, simply dumping a Renault (and a Red Bull gearbox) in the back didn't exactly propel Lotus anywhere did it?
Considering there are no throttle-blown diffusers next year, surely the difference between Renault and Cosworth (or any other engine) will be less not more?

I hope Williams improve I really do. But people need to stop talking about this engine change like its almost success ensured. People said the same things about the Toyota back in 2006.

Red Bull had the very same Renault engine in 2008 and struggled to even beat Toro Rosso, the engine almost means nothing at all.

I absolutely hate the fact people still wish to pin a sizable amount of success or failure on engines. If Williams suceed, it will be the Renault engine that brought them sucess. If they continue to fail, it will be all Williams' fault. Its the package as a whole, the engine is close to being irrelevant these days.

Agreed, the engine regulations are so tight these days you're talking a hundredth or so between them. There are no true engine/power circuits anymore, even Monza, Spa and Silverstone are all about finding the right aero balance.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm confused, are you referring to blowing exhaust gases when off-throttle? I'm guessing that this is the case and I simply misunderstood.

A complete ban on any/all exhuast gases going over parts of the car would involve putting the exhaust exit behind the diffuser as Ardius stated, and i'm almost certain that was shot down too. This is backed up by the fact Williams' were testing a 'periscope' exhaust in Abu Dhabi, which wouldn't make sense if the regulations had forbidden it.

The practice of blowing exhaust gasses over any part of the car to generate downforce is banned in 2012. This includes both on- and off-throttle blowing.

I believe Williams have dubbed the exhaust the "periscope" because of the shape of it. They're understandably reluctant to let it be seen, but I think the exhaust outlet goes up and then out. In fact, I think the 2012 regulations have very specific rules about where the exhaust gas may physically exit the car, which would no doubt be in a place where it cannot be directed over any part of the bodywork. Williams may be using the "periscope" as a temproary solution to gauge where the exhaust will exit the car. Rather than testing new parts, they are testing how the new regulations will affect the car.

 

[The Outlaw]

Sigh, again, simply dumping a Renault (and a Red Bull gearbox) in the back didn't exactly propel Lotus anywhere did it?
Considering there are no throttle-blown diffusers next year, surely the difference between Renault and Cosworth (or any other engine) will be less not more?
.

It's a much more complicated matter than that though. Not even Ferrari could get a good grasp on the EBD mapping's this season, thus it's easy to see how a new team like Lotus (in only their 2nd season) would struggle far worse to get this complicated device to work effectively as a whole (especially given their budget). And yes, with the EBD ban for next year which will drastically minimize the engines affect as an air pump for the diffuser, it's easy to see how this will balance out each manufacturers engines overall affect on the car..with the focus shifting away from utilizing the engine for the EBD's effectiveness.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I think the EBD ban is going to be interesting. Although it's recently been used to generate downforce, some of David Coulthard's comments at the British Grand Prix suggested that the front-running teams have been using engine and throttle maps for years. I imagine that some of the teams would use it to keep the engine spinning at low speeds to prevent stalling. We saw a lot of the teams - most notably the Renault- and Mercedes-powered ones - asking for exemptions to the Silverstone ban on the grounds that they needed engine maps to prevent their engines from becoming damaged. It was no doubt overstated in a grab for as much leeway as they could muster, but they sold it to the FIA (who, despite occasional appearances to the contrary, were not born yesterday), so there's obviously some kind of precedent. Perhaps we'll see engine reliablity go down next year ...

 

[Ardius]

It's a much more complicated matter than that though. Not even Ferrari could get a good grasp on the EBD mapping's this season, thus it's easy to see how a new team like Lotus (in only their 2nd season) would struggle far worse to get this complicated device to work effectively as a whole (especially given their budget). And yes, with the EBD ban for next year which will drastically minimize the engines affect as an air pump for the diffuser, it's easy to see how this will balance out each manufacturers engines overall affect on the car..with the focus shifting away from utilizing the engine for the EBD's effectiveness.

Um, yes, precisely. It is more complicated than simply dumping engines in the back. So why are we talking like Renault are going to change Williams' fortunes? Changing the engine might help Williams but it also might not, the popular opinion seems to be to suggest its a positive for no reason other than that the Renault engine has had more success.

Williams' problem has never seemed to be the engines they use (except when they were using Judds).

 

[hampus_dh]

I think the EBD ban is going to be interesting. Although it's recently been used to generate downforce, some of David Coulthard's comments at the British Grand Prix suggested that the front-running teams have been using engine and throttle maps for years. I imagine that some of the teams would use it to keep the engine spinning at low speeds to prevent stalling. We saw a lot of the teams - most notably the Renault- and Mercedes-powered ones - asking for exemptions to the Silverstone ban on the grounds that they needed engine maps to prevent their engines from becoming damaged. It was no doubt overstated in a grab for as much leeway as they could muster, but they sold it to the FIA (who, despite occasional appearances to the contrary, were not born yesterday), so there's obviously some kind of precedent. Perhaps we'll see engine reliablity go down next year ...

The Silverstone GP really showed how important the EBD were for teams like RBR and Mclaren.

With it banned, Ferrari was the quickest car of them all, Alonso took 0.7 seconds out of the Red Bull in the Maggotts/Becketts complex.
An area where the Red Bull is supposed to be superior.

 

[The Outlaw]

Um, yes, precisely. It is more complicated than simply dumping engines in the back. So why are we talking like Renault are going to change Williams' fortunes? Changing the engine might help Williams but it also might not, the popular opinion seems to be to suggest its a positive for no reason other than that the Renault engine has had more success.

Williams' problem has never seemed to be the engines they use (except when they were using Judds).

I think you're missing the point - in that Williams has been handicapped this year (in terms of the development & effectiveness of their EBD) by using the Cosworth package. Once again, being that the EBD will be banned next year and Williams will be moving to the more reliable/developed Renault powerplant...I think they have a bit of hope for more success next year (which is all I've said from the beggining.

 

[Pezzarinho17]

Mercedes and Williams tested 2012 exhaust exits at the young driver test in Abu Dhabi. It was mentioned that both teams had the exits angled towards the rear wing. For sure it won't be as affective as the blown diffusers of 2011, but this will be an area of development to watch with intrigue. Anyone inventive want to suggest a way in which you could get the exhaust gases operating an F-Duct style rear wing device as well?

 

[Seismica]

I'll continue the discussion here...

The practice of blowing exhaust gasses over any part of the car to generate downforce is banned in 2012. This includes both on- and off-throttle blowing.

I believe Williams have dubbed the exhaust the "periscope" because of the shape of it. They're understandably reluctant to let it be seen, but I think the exhaust outlet goes up and then out. In fact, I think the 2012 regulations have very specific rules about where the exhaust gas may physically exit the car, which would no doubt be in a place where it cannot be directed over any part of the bodywork. Williams may be using the "periscope" as a temproary solution to gauge where the exhaust will exit the car. Rather than testing new parts, they are testing how the new regulations will affect the car.

As long as exhaust gases are coming out before the back of the bodywork then it is pretty much impossible to prevent it from generating downforce. It cannot be prevented without moving the exhaust exits behind the diffuser, or making it run on a closed engine cycle with no exhaust or air intake (That would be fun, but incredibly slow and inefficient). I think what you mean that the FIA is outlawing the use of engine maps and exhaust positioning to increase the downforce by regulating the specific location and direction of the exhaust, which in theory would extinguish that area of development, evening the field (Though we know, this probably isn't going to be the case, there will likely be loopholes).

 

[Pezzarinho17]

I'm glad I was the first one to think of it!

Clearly a number of options, seem to offset either drag or downforce. The rules are still open to interpretation, but as I see it they have still left room for rearward components to be partially aided by the exhausts.