ABS 0 community where are you???

[Cote Dazur]

And no, I'm not lying to myself for using ABS 1. Its more like you guys look down upon us that use ABS 1. Yes, I know I'm nowhere as good as you guys but its how I choose to play the game. What I am getting tired of tho is how you guys think you are far more superior to us that use ABS and trying to speak for us and our reasons for using it. I know plenty of fast guys that use ABS 1. Its just a preference and on the whole, using no ABS does not make you any better than those that do.

As an ABS 0 addict and from my contact with other with the same addiction I can assure you no one is looking down on any body.
You are absolutly right, any one should play the way he enjoys the game 👍 and I also know a lot of people way faster than I am who never use ABS 0 👍.

 

[FormulaKimball]

I don't have the "stones", as you say, for those that use ABS 0. And no, I'm not lying to myself for using ABS 1. Its more like you guys look down upon us that use ABS 1. Yes, I know I'm nowhere as good as you guys but its how I choose to play the game. What I am getting tired of tho is how you guys think you are far more superior to us that use ABS and trying to speak for us and our reasons for using it. I know plenty of fast guys that use ABS 1. Its just a preference and on the whole, using no ABS does not make you any better than those that do.

No need to take it that literally or personally. It does take courage to go ABS=0 because it will feel very weird at first and it will slow you down for quite a while as you get used to it. I also agree with you that just because you use ABS=1 doesn't automatically mean you're a lesser driver than others, any more than ABS=0 automatically means you're a better driver. But, making the full transition to ABS=0 does mean you will be better than YOU were with ABS=1.

I think what the previous post was getting at is there are a lot of elitist people who post how hardcore they are for nerfing tires or whatever yet they are still using ABS=1 (and probably no clutch), which is silly even forgetting that no matter what you do, this is still just a game with a lot of elements that are not realistic.

Ultimately this whole thread isn't "look how cool we are for not using ABS", rather it's "look how awesome the game has become now that ABS and its inherent hidden assists are gone".

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I don't have the "stones", as you say, for those that use ABS 0. And no, I'm not lying to myself for using ABS 1. Its more like you guys look down upon us that use ABS 1. Yes, I know I'm nowhere as good as you guys but its how I choose to play the game. What I am getting tired of tho is how you guys think you are far more superior to us that use ABS and trying to speak for us and our reasons for using it. I know plenty of fast guys that use ABS 1. Its just a preference and on the whole, using no ABS does not make you any better than those that do.

I have collected many quotes from the past about ABS and no ABS :

I agree. It was weird at first. I thought for a while PD had just fubared the braking physics. Once you get the feel for it its so much more satisfying. There are actually a few FFB sensations relayed, the previously mentioned dead feel, and on hard lock ups you feel the wheel chatter. With a proper brake set up you can get into the brakes with much more intent then you would think.

ABS-1 has been too accepted at GTP as "assist free". ABS is an assist, only with it and all other assist off are we truely assist free driving.

If the DFP has as numb pedals as my older wheel did (logitech driving force EX) I can't blame you for not wanting to learn pedal control that precise, but with the G25 the spring is so strong you can easily pump it even with force and you'll still stay within the limit.

And I agree, ABS is an aid as much as the others. If the game had a real ABS light flickering to indicate the ABS working (like LFS for instance, LFS's ABS is very realistic) and if it did work like in real life (as it doesn't, discussed earlier) it'd be alright and I guess non abs driving and ABS driving would be balanced. I'm not saying they aren't now, the only difference I've found was in the Yellowbird sports hard challenge thread where username yellowbird beat me by a second and the only difference was he was using ABS. I'm not saying it's 100% because he was using ABS but it's the first time someone's been faster than me and I've even considered it was a result of ABS.

Ahh, now we're getting to the heart of the matter. I've said this before in another thread. ABS, at least in this game, does more than just slow the car down. It acts as a form of stability control under [heavy] braking. And indeed, a lot of GT players simply put ABS at 1 and smash the brake pedal (or button) to the floor at every corner they approach. If one would attempt to drive like this in a real car at a real track, you'd likely go shooting through the braking zone at full lock up, or end up spinning around, flying off the course. And that is EXACTLY what happens if you turn ABS OFF in GT5. It adds an element of realism to the game and makes it that much more challenging, and in my view, fun. When ABS is off, it forces you to rethink all of your braking points. It makes you reconsider your lines into certain corners. And you have to manage balance and weight transfer that you may have never considered when ABS was turned on. You can't just make banzai moves on another car.

In my events, we have a gentlemen's agreement not to use ABS. And it's really made a marked difference to the racing. As your tires wear out, it becomes MUCH easier to lock up, resulting in even MORE tire wear. It's a challenge. It would never work in public lobbies as many of them are a free for all to begin with. And the exaggerated slipstream in this game, makes forgoing ABS that much more difficult because your braking points are always changing.
But this is proof that it CAN be done:

Just yesterday I pulled a magnificient out braking maneuvre without abs on the nordschleife. I did lock up a bit but I held the inside line and took first place without contact! 👍

With the little puffs of smoke it even looked so flamboyant I might make a video out of the race.

Besides if so many people didn't use the ridiculous abs, out braking would happen much more often.

I never use ABS and I've never felt at a disadvantage. If anything it levels the field a bit since often I find it hard to find a balanced race.

With ABS on, the only way you can "fail" braking is to miss your braking point (and even if you miss it, just keep your foot floored and turn in, works every time ) but with abs off you're balancing it on the limit even while braking and I love that.

Seriously, all you need to do to get a totally new element to driving is turn abs off, turn brake balance to 4:1 and pump the brake pedal under hard braking slightly. When you see the revs drop and hear skidding move your foot up a notch and then back down again and keep repeating that quickly. Happens to me almost automatically since I do heel and toe at the same time

I have some experience with ABS off and ABS on. Neither lets you get away with just slamming the brakes if you want to be as fast as possible, but ABS on lets you overstep the limit of grip, so you can stay on the limit for maximum stopping power without fear of losing the car is accidentally exceed the limit. There's also the stabilizing property of ABS.
.

But it DOES add realism. It adds realism if you're racing say, a 1965 Alfa TZ2, which doesn't have ABS in real life and you slam on the brakes entering an off-camber corner, the car is going to go sideways. Turn ABS on, something the real car doesn't have, and it's going to be a nice, tame, little bunny.

Is it harder to control than not using TCS? I don't know. Maybe. I think it's just become such an accepted standard here on GTP and in the GT community to set ABS on 1 that people make it out to be more than it really is.

Either way, although I use a G27, not a DFGT, I believe you're both wrong. I can immediately tell when I've locked up because:
1) The steering (FFB) goes limp. Or it certainly does when locking up the front.
2) The revs drop and if I'm using the h-pattern shifter the car will stall and shut off.
3) Others in my group who use a DFGT have told me they experience the same thing.

Try it again. Drive in the wet, with traction set to "real" and not low, set the brake bias to maybe, 3/0 and tell me if you can't feel you've locked up through the wheel. Granted, if you're going perfectly straight and brake in a straight line, it might be tricky, but if you do this in an actual braking zone, I'm sure you'll notice it.

I would not say no ABS means better driver ( they are generally slower than ABS driver due to the nature of the assist ), but obviously gives better experience, immersion and more demanding on the driver in terms of braking techniques as well other racing maneuver. I hope the quotes from people who have experiences no ABS driving will give more insights about ABS assist and no ABS driving in general

 

[Boiliehead]

Driving without abs on gt5 is easier now than it used to be due to updates in my opinion.
I remember joining abs rooms while i used none and the host and their wee gang would poke fun at your chosen physics, setting weather to rain, comfort softs and the like, funny how things have changed.



p.s. We have always been here.

 

[DaSixSixOne]

My name is DaSixSixOne and I've been sober without ABS for a whole year. Even when hanging out with friends who use it in front of me, I've learned that going without ABS makes my racing life more enjoyable.

I'm happy to see this thread still alive and growing. My original no ABS confession posted a few weeks ago is above.

Thanks to CJ for starting a great discussion!

 

[NCRthree]

I don't have the "stones", as you say, for those that use ABS 0. And no, I'm not lying to myself for using ABS 1. Its more like you guys look down upon us that use ABS 1. Yes, I know I'm nowhere as good as you guys but its how I choose to play the game. What I am getting tired of tho is how you guys think you are far more superior to us that use ABS and trying to speak for us and our reasons for using it. I know plenty of fast guys that use ABS 1. Its just a preference and on the whole, using no ABS does not make you any better than those that do.

Hey Cargorat, you're obviously someone who loves console racing and is a excellent contributor to GTP. I know you have a lot of enthusiasm toward GT5 and put in some serious track time.


If there's some snobbery going on about this topic that's a shame. If someone feels superior to someone else's gaming preferences, they're the one's lacking "stones". A compensation thing you know. I put up my blinders to that crap anyway and just use this site for informational purposes.

Anyway, I'm a begineer with this no abs thing and it's basically a natural progression for me. I'd dropped all aids one by one and just settled on abs 1 as the norm. Thought it was just a representation of real life abs. Saw some enthusiastic threads about no abs and got very curious. So decided to gave it more than just a passing test and I'm really digging it.

I've got no delusions of being a real fast driver to begin with but only to get a better driving experience. At least it makes offline more challenging, you really have to put in some thought on how to pass the AI in braking zones. So I'm still not sure how "real" any of GT5 is but I'm getting into the mindset that no aids is probably more "real" than using aids. It's worth a try for sure, it's gotten me out of my comfort zone.

 

[CJSpencer77]

I just got the G27 and its just so much more rewarding to have the ABS on as I gain my experience with the wheel, in the future I'll start shuffling the ABS on an off an learn the differences, but that's not until I get fully comfortable with my new wheel. Ya thanks for pointing out the ABS is really just a brake assist, now it makes alot more sense. Ya man thanks for the info that helped alot

in my opinon there is nothing wrong with that bud, i started with Stability control switched on and ABS 1, very quickly turned the stability control off and much later got rid of the ABS.

Theres people in this thread stating how the ABS 0 guys are looking down on players that use ABS 1, which really isnt the case for the majority, very few of us started the game and turned all the aids and ABS off straight away, for me and my league mates it was just a natural progression. Definetly not to lord it over the ABS 1 guys, we only race in ABS 0 rooms anyway so wouldnt get the chance to gloat anyway !

Its just that in the grand scheme of things the ABS 0 fans are in the minority and were trying to lure all you ABS 1 guys over to the dark side

 

[CJSpencer77]

Thanks to CJ for starting a great discussion!

No problem bud, tbh i didnt think there were as many guys who enjoy ABS 0 as there seems to be !!

" ABS 0 community where are you??? " ........Ok think I found ya !!!

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Hey Cargorat, you're obviously someone who loves console racing and is a excellent contributor to GTP. I know you have a lot of enthusiasm toward GT5 and put in some serious track time.


If there's some snobbery going on about this topic that's a shame. If someone feels superior to someone else's gaming preferences, they're the one's lacking "stones". A compensation thing you know. I put up my blinders to that crap anyway and just use this site for informational purposes.

Anyway, I'm a begineer with this no abs thing and it's basically a natural progression for me. I'd dropped all aids one by one and just settled on abs 1 as the norm. Thought it was just a representation of real life abs. Saw some enthusiastic threads about no abs and got very curious. So decided to gave it more than just a passing test and I'm really digging it.

I've got no delusions of being a real fast driver to begin with but only to get a better driving experience. At least it makes offline more challenging, you really have to put in some thought on how to pass the AI in braking zones. So I'm still not sure how "real" any of GT5 is but I'm getting into the mindset that no aids is probably more "real" than using aids. It's worth a try for sure, it's gotten me out of my comfort zone.

I totally agree with what you say. You see, I too have been practicing with no ABS. It is a great alternative to learn but for me, and in my opinion, I'm always going to be quicker with ABS 1 which is what I use for TT competitions. Like I said before tho, the problem I have here is there are certain individuals that run around these forums with an elitist atitude just because they use no aids and they think anyone that does use them is beneith them. They go around spewing crap like we need to take off the training wheels or we're just a bunch of noobs. I don't care who uses what, its the whole elitist atitude of those that don't use aids that I have a problem with.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Its just that in the grand scheme of things the ABS 0 fans are in the minority and were trying to lure all you ABS 1 guys over to the dark side

That is funny.

 

[Jaywalker]

Horses for courses, for me. With most cars, I'm ok, but for a few, I find it's just a no no.

 

[NCRthree]

I'm getting a much better feel for this now after a couple weeks. Last night I ran some hot laps on the Nurb24 with the new DLC N24 GTR bone stock. A few weeks back I couldn't drive that car with ABS1 in my normal style. Thought something was wrong with the car! Brake lift oversteer that i couldn't deal with. What a difference after putting in some track time with the brake assist OFF. The car felt great with ABS 0. Ran about 4 laps with zero brake oversteer issues.

It's the driver mod that needed adjusting for me. Kind of humbling to realize I was braking so lazily before. Just find my mark and stab the brake. Read up on some race braking techniques and started putting them into practice. Ran the older race cars (Ferrari 330, 69 Ford GT40, etc..) on Spa. You can really feel the car's tires biting down to threshold brake. Having to be aware of weight transfer in turn in kept me on my toes sure.

 

[goofycool]

...for me, and in my opinion, I'm always going to be quicker with ABS 1 which is what I use for TT competitions.

This is an interesting topic. There are no issues in arcade mode, seasonals and no ABS lobbies. Everyone has made the no ABS choice. But TTs allow ABS so it would seem like we are forced into using it. Can two equally highly skilled players that are equally adept with there preference of ABS0 and ABS1 be competitive with each other? I'd test it with myself but I might have to much ABS0 habit in me now to be able to use ABS1 to its fullest. Plus, I don't want to.In the ranking section at MyGranturismo, the winner of GT acadamy prize car 'ring tt is shown to have used NO ABS.

http://www.mygranturismo.net/rankings.php?sec=3&board=88

If this is correct, then WOW, a big rethink can possibly happen. Next time that I'm really in the mood for a tt, I'm going to see where I can get to with no ABS. That won't be any sort of valid test but it could be interesting.

...its the whole elitist atitude of those that don't use aids that I have a problem with.

Those with elitist attitudes are Bozos. Just laugh at there funny hair and shoes. This seems to be a pretty Bozo free thread. Mostly ABS0 addicts, not ABS0 elitists.

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

This is an interesting topic. There are no issues in arcade mode, seasonals and no ABS lobbies. Everyone has made the no ABS choice. But TTs allow ABS so it would seem like we are forced into using it. Can two equally highly skilled players that are equally adept with there preference of ABS0 and ABS1 be competitive with each other? I'd test it with myself but I might have to much ABS0 habit in me now to be able to use ABS1 to its fullest. Plus, I don't want to.In the ranking section at MyGranturismo, the winner of GT acadamy prize car 'ring tt is shown to have used NO ABS.

http://www.mygranturismo.net/rankings.php?sec=3&board=88

If this is correct, then WOW, a big rethink can possibly happen. Next time that I'm really in the mood for a tt, I'm going to see where I can get to with no ABS. That won't be any sort of valid test but it could be interesting.



Those with elitist attitudes are Bozos. Just laugh at there funny hair and shoes. This seems to be a pretty Bozo free thread. Mostly ABS0 addicts, not ABS0 elitists.

As I see it, if you get a spot on lap with no ABS, you'll be just as fast as with it.

However because you don't have the braking assist, you have more things that you can mess up, therefore you're more likely to make a mistake. 👍

I run in GTP leagues with no ABS and have been reasonably competitive.

 

[goofycool]

I run in GTP leagues with no ABS and have been reasonably competitive.

ABS0 vs. ABS0 should be competitive with equally skilled players. So should ABS1 vs. ABS1 but do you find ABS0 vs. ABS1 competitive between equally skilled players? In TTs, can ABS0 guys be competitive with ABS1 guys?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

ABS 0 can be competitive against ABS 1, the hard thing would be finding 2 equally skilled players ... and the only way to test is to have both drive the same car, both stock, each with their own preferred BB, on a tire that both agreed beforehand. Most drivers are accustomed to sports or racing tires, but there are drivers like me for example who spend at least 75% of my driving in GT5 with comfort medium tires or lower.

So, in my case if I (ABS 0) race with someone who uses ABS 1 ( on my par ), on comfort medium using a 500+pp street car ( Ferrari 599 ) in stock condition on a short track like London Reverse, the result would be very hard to predict.


One of my best TT result was from the TT 45 Italian cars at Monza, I had 1:56.505 using my own tuned 458 Italia and no ABS, ranked 4239, my time trial level on Mygranturismo.net is 62,88, I don't really know what this means .. but I guess I am just mediocre, I never tried to compete with the best tune or car for each given TT, just drive the car I like and gold it.

 

[FordMKIVJ5]

ABS0 vs. ABS0 should be competitive with equally skilled players. So should ABS1 vs. ABS1 but do you find ABS0 vs. ABS1 competitive between equally skilled players? In TTs, can ABS0 guys be competitive with ABS1 guys?

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant I run in competitive racing series that allow ABS, with no ABS, and have been reasonably competitive. 👍

I also finished 110th in TT#46 in the FGT at Spa (no where near the guys at the top, they're just insane ). FormulaKimball finished in the 40s with no ABS as well I believe and there were a few more in between us. So yes, I believe no ABS can compete easily with no ABS.

 

[Cote Dazur]

It happens often to be faster than other using ABS1 when using ABSO
but I have found myself aways a little faster on 1. on a well knowned track with well knowned car the difference for me is about 1/2 a secound. So the difference to me is not worth using ABS1. :-)

 

[FormulaKimball]

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant I run in competitive racing series that allow ABS, with no ABS, and have been reasonably competitive. 👍

I also finished 110th in TT#46 in the FGT at Spa (no where near the guys at the top, they're just insane ). FormulaKimball finished in the 40s with no ABS as well I believe and there were a few more in between us. So yes, I believe no ABS can compete easily with no ABS.

I wonder if more drivers could be competitive without ABS but chose ABS=1 just to make sure they could get every last thousandth of a second and/or avoid wasting time on braking mistakes. Very interesting to see the rankings filtered by ABS=0 though (628/58,756 - 1% of drivers):

http://www.mygranturismo.net/rankings.php?sec=3&board=98&abs=0

 

[goofycool]

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant I run in competitive racing series that allow ABS, with no ABS, and have been reasonably competitive. 👍

I also finished 110th in TT#46 in the FGT at Spa (no where near the guys at the top, they're just insane ). FormulaKimball finished in the 40s with no ABS as well I believe and there were a few more in between us. So yes, I believe no ABS can compete easily with no ABS.

Thanks. Yes they are. But nice placement on your part. So the long and short of it is that we need more ABS0 guys on the leaderboards. I will try to do my part but I doubt that's going to be a big help. If Ti-tech85's win was indeed with no ABS well...

 

[CJSpencer77]

This is an interesting topic. There are no issues in arcade mode, seasonals and no ABS lobbies. Everyone has made the no ABS choice. But TTs allow ABS so it would seem like we are forced into using it. Can two equally highly skilled players that are equally adept with there preference of ABS0 and ABS1 be competitive with each other? I'd test it with myself but I might have to much ABS0 habit in me now to be able to use ABS1 to its fullest. Plus, I don't want to.In the ranking section at MyGranturismo, the winner of GT acadamy prize car 'ring tt is shown to have used NO ABS.

http://www.mygranturismo.net/rankings.php?sec=3&board=88

If this is correct, then WOW, a big rethink can possibly happen. Next time that I'm really in the mood for a tt, I'm going to see where I can get to with no ABS. That won't be any sort of valid test but it could be interesting.

Look at my first post, those french guys i was talking about well titech is one of those guys, and quite well known for his speed, theres a few guys like titech and ghostdriver who dont use ABS but are always at the top of TT's.

P.S. Titech had the fastest time on the planet for the last GT Academy, and all of those guys who race in that group swear they are quicker with ABS 0.

P.P.S there are other guys from the top 15 of that TT from the same group of guys im talking about that race together always using ABS 0 as in i-howeller, Phenicks083 and TC-Atom, but howeller and Atom have turned ABS to 1 where they normally use 0, so the jury seems to still be out.

 

[Greycap]

Personally I don't see ABS as a magical stability assist, it does exactly what a good ABS system is supposed to do - prevents wheels from locking - and when wheels don't lock the car is stable under braking. It's that simple. Now, if such a perfect behaviour is true to normal street cars or not is another thing but it's precisely how a flawless ABS system should work.

On the subject of which is faster, hard to say. I've been testing with a couple of cars and the differences are measured in hundredths of seconds, ABS 0 can be faster in slightly understeering cars as oversteer during trail braking is easier to initiate. I still don't like the fact that I can't use full brake pedal travel unless the brake balance is set to around 3/2 or less, I'd like to be able to use finer balance tweaks without getting excessive braking force, but we can't have everything in the GT world.

 

[CodeRedR51]

If anyone here is interested in running some 400pp Miata's without ABS, I have a new series running on Sunday nights, starting the 28th. 👍

 

[Cote Dazur]

Thank you for the link to the ranking at mygranturismo.net, with the filters it is full of meaningfull info.

 

[mikeonthebike]

I wonder if more drivers could be competitive without ABS but chose ABS=1 just to make sure they could get every last thousandth of a second and/or avoid wasting time on braking mistakes. Very interesting to see the rankings filtered by ABS=0 though (628/58,756 - 1% of drivers):

http://www.mygranturismo.net/rankings.php?sec=3&board=98&abs=0

Damn I wish I would have had more time to put in on that one. Thanks for the link. I didn't know that existed. I found my psn on there. Guess I was 6th in the US and 1849 overall with those filters on. 1% lol

 

[Jaywalker]

If anyone here is interested in running some 400pp Miata's without ABS, I have a new series running on Sunday nights, starting the 28th. 👍

GMT time?

 

[VBR]

Personally I don't see ABS as a magical stability assist, it does exactly what a good ABS system is supposed to do - prevents wheels from locking - and when wheels don't lock the car is stable under braking. It's that simple. Now, if such a perfect behaviour is true to normal street cars or not is another thing but it's precisely how a flawless ABS system should work.

+ 7,000,000! Well put, that's the only real issue with GT5's ABS, it's a bit too perfect.

 

[JogoAsobi]

Damn I wish I would have had more time to put in on that one. Thanks for the link. I didn't know that existed. I found my psn on there. Guess I was 6th in the US and 1849 overall with those filters on. 1% lol

Yes, the filtering of the ranking is very nice, out of 58,756 entrants, only 357 ran with wheels, using no Aids, no ABS, so its all relative. 1425 overall here, 4th in USA. Did even better in the Toscana event.

 

[newbielives]

This is actually really easy to test, you dont need two equally skilled driver you just need to be the same person. I personally only drive with abs 0 heal toe clutch & h shifter but when i do switch over to abs1 im definately faster. Being able to just step on the brake even in mid corner without fearing the car is going to unbalance im usually able to achieve 2 secconds faster on The ring

ABS 0 can be competitive against ABS 1, the hard thing would be finding 2 equally skilled players ... and the only way to test is to have both drive the same car, both stock, each with their own preferred BB, on a tire that both agreed beforehand. Most drivers are accustomed to sports or racing tires, but there are drivers like me for example who spend at least 75% of my driving in GT5 with comfort medium tires or lower.

So, in my case if I (ABS 0) race with someone who uses ABS 1 ( on my par ), on comfort medium using a 500+pp street car ( Ferrari 599 ) in stock condition on a short track like London Reverse, the result would be very hard to predict.


One of my best TT result was from the TT 45 Italian cars at Monza, I had 1:56.505 using my own tuned 458 Italia and no ABS, ranked 4239, my time trial level on Mygranturismo.net is 62,88, I don't really know what this means .. but I guess I am just mediocre, I never tried to compete with the best tune or car for each given TT, just drive the car I like and gold it.

 

[mikeonthebike]

Can two equally highly skilled players that are equally adept with there preference of ABS0 and ABS1 be competitive with each other?

YES. I race with some real fast guys and I run with no abs and typically most of them run abs 1. I win every now and again and am very happy with that because it's great racing!!!

Recently I had a back to back win on the Ring in a stock 09 zr1 detuned to compete (like the tv ad) 550pp on sports hards then I won and picked 600pp sports hard and used the same car with various upgrades added to get close to 600pp still with stock trans and suspension and won again. It's totally possible to be competitive but it hard that's for sure.

Yes, the filtering of the ranking is very nice, out of 58,756 entrants, only 357 ran with wheels, using no Aids, no ABS, so its all relative. 1425 overall here, 4th in USA. Did even better in the Toscana event.

Wow only 357 using wheels and no aids. Pretty nuts. I would figure more wheel users would be in the mix using no aids. 4th?? you beat me!! 👍