Audio Improvements May Not be Ready for Gran Turismo 6 | Kaz Interview

[Tenacious D]

We want the interesting and innovative gameplay of the past, but we also don't want to be stuck in the past like we were in GT5.

Well, I'm not sure what you're saying. I certainly don't think I'm playing GT2 or 3 when I'm playing GT5, not even Prologue.

So if you're saying that GT5 hasn't progressed, that's just more of the forced argument / exaggerating points / ignoring any improvements thing I was talking about. You have to criticize validly, or it carries about as much value as political propaganda, and we have a president which lives in no other world whatsoever. So I'm a bit sensitive to the incessant ring of the death note. If that's not where you're driving... well, further discussion then,, that never hurts.

Slipztrem (or whatever) has been one of GT5's most jaded critics, and he seems pretty well juiced about GT6 for some reason. You might want to PM him and calm him down a bit. Seems pretty happy with what GT6 is offering.

And this is where I'm coming from. GT6 is looking like it's going to be pretty darn whelming. And considering that a million more people bought new copies of moldy old GT5 since the holidays says to me, that you guys can predict doom and gloom all you want. The rest of us are seeing a new day about to dawn, and we'll be diving into that head first on release day. You can sleep in if you like, won't matter to me.

Ok, I bite. You said "are", plural. So give us other examples.

To be frank, I'm a little busy trying to get a windshield replaced on The Sup so it can get legal, save one of dad's homes and thousands in bills for a bro by getting a home equity loan on mine, and get moved. All in one weekend? Doubtful...

Raced literally hundreds of cars in GT5. I can't remember which was cool and which was lame, which I modded and which I hadn't. If you didn't like anything in GT5 till now, none of my cars would please you anyhow so I think that horse might be dead for you. But you might relisten to the HSV, Super GT Supra and some NASCAR car. If those displease you, oh well.

And Chippy, my search hasn't been any luckier. One I thought might be stock is rumored to be an HKS edition muffler with possibly a high performance catalytic. Seems no one thinks the small school bus sound rocks enough, go figure.

One quick edit: my relative who owned two Mk III Supras said that the grunt is missing, while the whine is fine. So revving up a Standard Supra in GT5 will probably displease you, while I had the drive of my life. We'll see what the deal is with GT6 in a few days anyhow, like if the un-Premium Supras are Premiums.

 

[Zer0]

I suppose what separates the fanboys (I hate using this word, by the way) from the non-fanboys is that when a series dies because of its own failings, the non-fanboys, will not shed a tear because they will have offered ALL their help, criticism and suggestions to the developer.

Usually that other "non fanboys" that expect GT to die are called "haters", the other side.

If you mean "non fanboys" as realistic or more down to earth people your subconscious mind is revealing you. A neutral mind will not be influenced by their personal preferences at the time of analize objectively the actual series given its success and growing popularity. Also they will not ignore the other games real impact (different than personal) before making any premonition or when they go far away and expose some GT doomed theories wich they trust more than the reality.

 

[Imari]

Thats great. Glad you laughed. I didnt imply he had 270 people. I said he hired people. And then you proved it. I even said "I guess they mentioned that number for no reason." That's the real world, my typed words on your screen.

Why don't you tell me what this is supposed to mean, instead of me trying to interpret your dribble. Because although it's a common form for a rhetorical question (meaning: of course they wouldn't have mentioned that for no reason), I get the feeling you're now going to claim that it was a simple statement (meaning: I think they mentioned that for no reason).

We've already been through your reading comprehension issues in another thread, I'm not about to go chasing fairies with you again.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Usually that other "non fanboys" that expect GT to die are called "haters", the other side.

If you mean "non fanboys" as realistic or more down to earth people your subconscious mind is revealing you. A neutral mind will not be influenced by their personal preferences at the time of analize objectively the actual series given its success and growing popularity. Also they will not ignore the other games real impact (different than personal) before making any premonition or when they go far away and expose some GT doomed theories wich they trust more than the reality.

If one is to analyze the GT series objectively, success and growing popularity will play no part in the analysis. Justin Beaver is very popular and successful but I doubt many people over the age of 15 would consider him a great singer. "Non-fanboys", look at the series more objectively, ignoring success and sales numbers, and looking at the actual content and gameplay itself, and comparing it to what others have done and what we know is possible, given the resources available to the developer.

Fanboys take this criticism personally as if it's directed towards them or someone they love and then fail to see the forest for the trees, generally ignoring or glossing over faults and shortcomings, or pretending they see them but saying they don't affect them or they don't care. Another favourite tactic is to find one exception to a statement out of 1000 examples and then ignore the gist of an argument.

 

[Tenacious D]

I thought I'd toss this find by Griffith500 into the discussion before bed.

 

[Imari]

What struck me from that video is how for most of the cars, the chase cam sounds are pretty pleasant (except for the GTR). The interior and trackside cams are almost universally wimpy and whizzy.

I could see how if you're a person that drives exclusively from chase cam you wouldn't have much of a problem. I don't think I've driven chase cam for more than a few minutes since GT4.

 

[Chippy569]

I thought I'd toss this find by Griffith500 into the discussion before bed.

Really awesome find.

Overall, what I hear sounds like there was a rather drastic EQ boost on the car bus. I can almost exactly replicate the patch's changes by taking the pre-patch sound and using a 9dB boost on a low shelf at 500 Hz. Some other things I hear in there:

1. What's with all the phasing issues?
2. The post-patch SLS sounds rather in the right character realm - it has the "flappy" sound the Mercs have.
3. That zonda doesn't sound like it wants to kill me, which makes me sad.
4. The pre-patch 908 sounds like what happens when you mix a 12-cylinder recording and an 8-cylinder recording -- the harmonics don't match. The post-patch just hides this a bit, but it's still two out-of-harmonic-balance sounds.
5. The pre-patch lancer clip illustrates exactly the crux of why GT sounds like vacuums. You can distinctly hear that there are 3 loops: an idle loop, a low-rpm loop, and a high-rpm loop. You can hear the transition between the idle loop and the low-rpm loop really clearly right as the car launches at 3:54, and you can hear the transition between low-rpm loop and high-rpm loop clearest right before the camera flips to cockpit at 4:08.
Actually, I found a great youtube clip that demonstrates exactly how this works. Skip ahead to :44.


This guy has some recordings of an FZ1000 which goes to 12,000 RPM. He has 3 loops covering this range (Idle, mid, high). I'm guessing the "mid" is at about 6,000 RPM and the "high" is about 11,250. There are also 2 loops for "off-load." What FMOD is doing is applying a pitch shift based on RPM to each loop. The way pitch shift works is it "stretches" out the sounds to make it lower in pitch (or tightens to raise). So, say you have a sound at 1,000 Hz. If you stretch it to be twice as long, it'll sound like 500 Hz. Anyway, the point is that every sound in the recording is shifted equally, including sounds in the engine that don't shift at all (like belt squeak or valve rattle) and, importantly, the sound of air or room, the stuff that's up in the 12 KHz-16KHz range. When you stretch these sounds very low or very high, you get the weirdly fake, unnatural sound that is synonymous with GT. You can hear it very clearly in this fmod demo when the cursor scrolls over the 3000-4000 RPM.

The only way to combat this effect is to use more loops, lots more loops. But more loops means taking up more memory. I'm guessing that GT doesn't have the memory budget to fit more loops, so you end up with overly-stretched sounds.

back to the lancer, you can also hear at 4:32 that the point where two loops are crossfading, they're out of tune so you get a beat frequency.


Anyway, that's what I hear. I'm really hoping that when the GT franchise moves to PS4, they can take advantage of a larger memory budget and include more loops per car to get rid of the stretchiness.

 

[machschnel]

I said he hired people.

Again, that's irrelevant.

What matters is, did they make a difference?

Large day one patch and unfinished audio point to no.

I think people forget GT5 is (at least for the moment) the highest selling PS3 game out there. Why they don't employ a workforce that represents this is beyond me. Wouldn't be an issue if things were finished on time etc but obviously that's not the case.

 

[trustjab]

Duplicate

 

[trustjab]

Sounds to me like you didn't imply he had 270 people, you made a direct reference to that number in your post above. Quoting sucks eh?

No. Relevance is missing. Check again at his previous post, Inspector

Why don't you tell me what this is supposed to mean, instead of me trying to interpret your dribble. Because although it's a common form for a rhetorical question (meaning: of course they wouldn't have mentioned that for no reason), I get the feeling you're now going to claim that it was a simple statement (meaning: I think they mentioned that for no reason).

We've already been through your reading comprehension issues in another thread, I'm not about to go chasing fairies with you again.

Im not in reality, remember? I guess you don't get sarcasm or detect it. But you sure like to jump on someone if they happen to show facts that support Kaz. He has expanded and is hiring. You showed as much and proved what I said. Which means his staff has increased. The reading comprehension issues lie with you and your quickness to criticism but lack of interpretation.

Again, that's irrelevant.

What matters is, did they make a difference?

Large day one patch and unfinished audio point to no.

I think people forget GT5 is (at least for the moment) the highest selling PS3 game out there. Why they don't employ a workforce that represents this is beyond me. Wouldn't be an issue if things were finished on time etc but obviously that's not the case.

People pretend that throwing more money at an issue automatically solves the problem. Things don't work that way. Even if he had more audio staff, theres no guarantee the new audio would make it in time. Theres definitely more to it than his staff size.

 

[Imari]

Im not in reality, remember? I guess you don't get sarcasm or detect it. But you sure like to jump on someone if they happen to show facts that support Kaz. He has expanded and is hiring. You showed as much and proved what I said. Which means his staff has increased. The reading comprehension issues lie with you and your quickness to criticism but lack of interpretation.

Nah, I just jump on people who claim that the PD workforce is 271.

 

[LeMansAid]

People pretend that throwing more money at an issue automatically solves the problem. Things don't work that way. Even if he had more audio staff, theres no guarantee the new audio would make it in time. Theres definitely more to it than his staff size.

I think the problem is not the dedication to the new audio. Rather the dedication to having a significant improvement in the audio done with the old processes. Throwing money at that surely would have solved that issue. That's the part that seems to be missing. The dedication to what is possible, right now.

Also, be careful talking about his "staff size". Some might think it racist.

 

[Imari]

Also, be careful talking about his "staff size". Some might think it racist.

That one took me a moment to process, then I had a good chuckle. Very good.

 

[Johnnypenso]

People pretend that throwing more money at an issue automatically solves the problem. Things don't work that way. Even if he had more audio staff, theres no guarantee the new audio would make it in time. Theres definitely more to it than his staff size.

Please indicate where anyone is saying that throwing money at an issue automatically solves the problem. We're not simpletons. We realize people need to be qualified to do a job, need on the job training to acclimate themselves to PD's way of doing things, and we realize this takes time. There's still no guarantee the audio would make it in time but I can guarantee you 100% that it won't make it in time with his current staffing levels. When stuff isn't getting done that could be done and needs to be done, most business will look at hiring people as an option.

Also, be careful talking about his "staff size". Some might think it racist.

👍👍

 

[wowbaggerBR]

Raced literally hundreds of cars in GT5. I can't remember which was cool and which was lame, which I modded and which I hadn't. If you didn't like anything in GT5 till now, none of my cars would please you anyhow so I think that horse might be dead for you. But you might relisten to the HSV, Super GT Supra and some NASCAR car. If those displease you, oh well.

Nope. It's not a bad sound to hear. The thing is, though, it isn't close to the real thing (and the competition, to be fair).






Sadly, there is no comparison between cockpit sounds.

 

[Zer0]

PD should release a raw footage comparisson of the sound recording in the actual car and how it sounds when it's finally put in the game but with the game sound recorded on air with mics placed in the room. A side to side comparisson with all the views, like they did with the track modelling in the Nurburgring video. I'm sure that they use some internal method similar to that to check and tune the sounds. Then some obvious similarities will appear.

These comparissons from random recorded vids from different sources does not really say much, even in the real footage every time the sound sounds different.

 

[trustjab]

Nah, I just jump on people who claim that the PD workforce is 271.

You won't find them, you can't even find the sarcasm. So your "jump" was wasted energy. But probably not since it seems your m.o. is to "jump" on people's case who don't share your opinion. You must be a great conversationalist!

I think the problem is not the dedication to the new audio. Rather the dedication to having a significant improvement in the audio done with the old processes. Throwing money at that surely would have solved that issue. That's the part that seems to be missing. The dedication to what is possible, right now.

Also, be careful talking about his "staff size". Some might think it racist.

I don't think the old process was getting fruitful results. If it were satisfactory why change it?

Please indicate where anyone is saying that throwing money at an issue automatically solves the problem. We're not simpletons. We realize people need to be qualified to do a job, need on the job training to acclimate themselves to PD's way of doing things, and we realize this takes time. There's still no guarantee the audio would make it in time but I can guarantee you 100% that it won't make it in time with his current staffing levels. When stuff isn't getting done that could be done and needs to be done, most business will look at hiring people as an option.


👍👍

Thats a simpleton solution. Adding more to anything does nothing without the knowledge of the problem. You hire people on to do something but do they understand what was being done? Focusing the people already in the know is easier than hiring people that need to be clued in to PD's 'formula'. He may have felt the amount of people he had was sufficient to do this change. No one knows the inner workings of GT6.

 

[LeMansAid]

I don't think the old process was getting fruitful results. If it were satisfactory why change it?

Two things should have been happening: 1) Working on the new process, 2) Getting the most out of the old process. Number one might be more about time than commitment, but number two could most likely be sorted with an injection of funds.

 

[Griffith500]

Two things should have been happening: 1) Working on the new process, 2) Getting the most out of the old process. Number one might be more about time than commitment, but number two could most likely be sorted with an injection of funds.

A separate team to work with the new recordings to make new samples for all the cars? Might have been possible, but you'd basically have to double the size of the sound design team. It's not going to do anything at this late stage, of course, and it seems like they're really gunning to get the new system working in GT6 at some point. I don't know if that's confidence or desperation, but it's kind of endearing given the ambition.

We don't have anything like enough information to make a judgement on any of it, though. I really want them to demo' the new sounds, as I've no doubt they're working in some form, but that would make GT6 at launch (/ forever) something of a bitter pill on the sound front. It's maybe not a wise move if people end up buying the game in anticipation of an update that never materialises, either.

 

[Imari]

I suggest you watch the "Kaz" movie trailer, theres a number in there if you listen carefully.

And you can't possibly be talking about where it says 271 men in that trailer. Point me to what I'm supposed to be seeing.

You just said it. I guess that number is not pertaining to his team and was mentioned for no reason.

You won't find them, you can't even find the sarcasm.

I found the sarcasm. You sarcastically said that 271 did not refer to the size of Kaz's workforce.

 

[sems4arsenal]

PD should release a raw footage comparisson of the sound recording in the actual car and how it sounds when it's finally put in the game but with the game sound recorded on air with mics placed in the room. A side to side comparisson with all the views, like they did with the track modelling in the Nurburgring video. I'm sure that they use some internal method similar to that to check and tune the sounds. Then some obvious similarities will appear.

These comparissons from random recorded vids from different sources does not really say much, even in the real footage every time the sound sounds different.

I bet they do compare the finished product to the real life counterparts.

The problem for me is why Kaz said they need to redo the way the engine sounds are simulated from my understanding it's just the samples that are wrong but maybe it's a technical limitation like some members have said before that prevent the samples from sounding accurate (Ram issues maybe?)

 

[Tenacious D]

I really want them to demo' the new sounds, as I've no doubt they're working in some form, but that would make GT6 at launch (/ forever) something of a bitter pill on the sound front. It's maybe not a wise move if people end up buying the game in anticipation of an update that never materialises, either.

I do too, but unless that breakthrough happens within the confines of PS3's relatively skimpy system ram, I'm expecting the real sound engine everyone is expecting, to appear on PS4 with the bountiful ram to support such necessarily large, high quality samples.

Some people keep bringing up "Oh but the competition on PS3 does..." What, exactly? How many unique cars do they have, and how many unique cars on track at once? There is nothing like Gran Turismo on PS3 with so many cars you can find in a field of up to 16. And in Arcade Mode, every race has a standing start of 16 cars. The comparison isn't really all that, dare I say it, sound. And don't even bring up Forza, because if you listen to the same car model driven by a bot as you pass it in yours in Forza 4, yours will have an ungody roar, and the bot will have something much more generic. These generic samples allow Turn 10 to bless your car with a nice big sound suite, even tire sounds if you watch a replay. Around a turn, you'll hear some amusingly clipped "morse code" screeches from the bot cars.

Both of these games on their respective systems are showing why the PS3 and X360 both needed more ram to properly support their games, and why every developer is chomping at the bit to jump into those much more powerful and ram rich systems.

Later on, I'll see about taking in a GT5 NASCAR race and see if it makes me as sad as wowbagger.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Bare in mind that Ram being the reason for the poor sound samples is still a theory.

 

[Tenacious D]

Yes but, dare I say it, it's a sound theory. Besides, I'd be hard pressed to explain the corner cutting both PD and Turn 10 are doing in their respective games any other way, especially considering how lauded the 360 is for its utter awesomeness by some.

There is also the matter of the ridiculous volume of work necessary to rework all those cars. For the sake of debate, let's say that there are 500 unique cars in GT6 which can be modified in engine and exhaust. Just assuming that muffler modification is the sole factor in sound differences, there are four different exhaust systems that need to be worked on.

Okay, that's 2000 projects. Slice it however you want, that's just insane. I'd shortsheet the work too, pick and choose what I'd focus on, and leave the rest for that breakthrough thing. Along with that, I'd continue working and offer some sort of upgrade along the way when a worthwhile number of audio packages was ready for release. And this is apparently what happened in the Spec 2 updates.

This may well be a part of that massive day-one update for GT6. Keep in mind that the game has to be buttoned down in a form that is releasable without patching for those who can't immediately get updates from home. That point may be six weeks, might be three weeks if you really want to shave the margin and drive SONY CE crazy. But this allows the team some freedom to work a while longer on the essentials they really want to polish for launch. Some of you may not want that extra sauce, but that's you.

 

[Conquerer]

Bare in mind that Ram being the reason for the poor sound samples is still a theory.

Oh it's absolutely pure 100% theory. Why do the Need for Speed Shift games have fantastic sound on the same console? 16 cars on track, a similar level of graphics (if not better with all premium cars, plus more detailed environments). Terrible simulators but the sound is fantastic. PD simply is just stuck in the PS1/early PS2 era when it comes to sound simulation. More RAM won't make a difference if they continue to use the same extremely outdated and flawed sound simulation methods.

The "breakthrough" that they're working on probably won't happen until the PS4, but that doesn't mean it will have anything to do with the increased RAM.

 

[theofilosz]

Its not a matter of memory , but bad samples and balancing the different sounds of the car. Simply listen to Mazda 787B or Lexus LFA etc. why doesn't the memory of PS3 have problem there?

 

[CorvetteConquer]

However they recorded the sound for the standard Zondas is how they should continue recording. It's...lovely.

 

[machschnel]

For the sake of debate, let's say that there are 500 unique cars in GT6 which can be modified in engine and exhaust. Just assuming that muffler modification is the sole factor in sound differences, there are four different exhaust systems that need to be worked on.

Okay, that's 2000 projects. Slice it however you want, that's just insane. I'd shortsheet the work too, pick and choose what I'd focus on, and leave the rest for that breakthrough thing.

But that's a problem of Polyphonys own creation - they wanted to break the elusive "1000" car barrier, seemingly at the cost of both visual and audio integrity.

Personally, I wouldn't add a single car to a game that didn't match the standard of any other car in the game. Polyphony, on the other hand, chose to do just that.

I realize some people enjoy both the standards and the current sounds and that is of course, perfectly reasonable. It's just that the immensity of the task at hand could have been avoided/reduced if not for a little foresight and patience on Polyphonys part.

Maybe they pulled the "1000" cars card a bit too soon.

 

[Tenacious D]

Why do the Need for Speed Shift games have fantastic sound on the same console? 16 cars on track, a similar level of graphics (if not better with all premium cars, plus more detailed environments). Terrible simulators but the sound is fantastic.

Shift 2
119 cars at release, 37 manufacturers

Gran Turismo 5
nearly 1000 unique cars, 60-plus manufacturers, not counting tuner companies and race car variants

Might have something to do with it...

Personally, I wouldn't add a single car to a game that didn't match the standard of any other car in the game.

1. That's the situation. Complaining about it changes squat.

2. I disagree. Oh well, we disagree. A huge news flash, I'm sure.

 

[HKS racer]

However they recorded the sound for the standard Zondas is how they should continue recording. It's...lovely.

This one sounds great.