Cars in GT6 that has PS4-Ready graphics.

[Matteo05]

I'm not going to be fooled... providing you play with a steering wheel, cockpit view is not realistic considering you see two steering wheels, four hands, and a much more limited view compared to real life. Also its hard to read the gauges in most cases.
Hood camera is more realistic as you can consider the TV screen as the windshield of the car.
Wake up and think of it for some time.

And to go back on topic:
...therefore I dont think interiors are so necessary for PS4 or even for any racing simulator at all.

Here is an example. You have to think of the cockpit as your own wheel+chair

I play with a DS3 and cockpit view is my favorite view.

 

[NixxxoN]

When you drive where do you sit? in the bonnet?

Oh and i drive with the HUD off , so i obviously can't see the speed i'm going at , revs , etc. I need / prefer using interior view because of it , because it's more visually appealing , more immersive and more fun.

Nonsense. With the bonnet camera, or hood camera, you appear as if you sit IN the drivers seat, unlike the cockpit view, where it appears as if you sit on the back seat of the driver.

I play with a DS3 and cockpit view is my favorite view.

Good for you. Enjoy the very limited view.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm not going to be fooled... providing you play with a steering wheel, cockpit view is not realistic considering you see two steering wheels, four hands, and a much more limited view compared to real life. Also its hard to read the gauges in most cases.
Hood camera is more realistic as you can consider the TV screen as the windshield of the car.
Wake up and think of it for some time.

And to go back on topic:
...therefore I dont think interiors are so necessary for PS4 or even for any racing simulator at all.

Sims have the option to disable the steering and driver animations and you can place your steering wheel in the exact same position in the car like so. This is easily doable and actually easier on the system resources. It's quite popular:

Spoiler: Video with no driver/steering animation, and real wheel where the sim wheel would be. Illustration purposes only

 

[NixxxoN]

Sims have the option to disable the steering and driver animations and you can place your steering wheel in the exact same position in the car like so. This is easily doable and actually easier on the system resources. It's quite popular:

Spoiler: Video showing no driver or steering animation with real wheel where the sim wheel would be for illustration purposes only

Now that's very different from what we get in GT6 and much more realistic, and its actually kinda close to the hood cam I was refering too. It also seems that the exterior view is much better.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm not going to be fooled... providing you play with a steering wheel, cockpit view is not realistic considering you see two steering wheels, four hands, and a much more limited view compared to real life. Also its hard to read the gauges in most cases.
Hood camera is more realistic as you can consider the TV screen as the windshield of the car.
Wake up and think of it for some time.

And to go back on topic:
...therefore I dont think interiors are so necessary for PS4 or even for any racing simulator at all.

With a realistically calculated FOV and sitting close to the screen, it's very immersive. You adapt to the more limited range of vision through using the mirrors, "look" buttons and/or proximity indicators like GT has or third party apps. It's quite popular:

EDIT: This was supposed to be an edit to my post above, not sure what happened

 

[JoaoSilva]

Nonsense. With the bonnet camera, or hood camera, you appear as if you sit IN the drivers seat, unlike the cockpit view, where it appears as if you sit on the back seat of the driver.

It doesn't matter whan view you choose , no camera in GT6 is the same as real life , so none of us are right , i simply stated:

Oh and i drive with the HUD off , so i obviously can't see the speed i'm going at , revs , etc. I need / prefer using interior view because of it , because it's more visually appealing , more immersive and more fun.

and you for some reason say "nonsense" , don't even know where you were going with that statement.

If you want the most realistic camera possible , you need to go to other games. The so-called "hood" camera in GT6 isn't actually placed in the hood of the car , but on the roof.

 

[NixxxoN]

Do you guys have driving license? I do and when I drive I dont even watch the cockpit, because I always watch the road, thats where you want to focus in. If I had to do a realistic camera myself (what I actually see with my own eyes) the dashboard and a huge part of the whole cockpit wouldnt even appear, only the upper part of the steering wheel and the gauges, thats about it.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It doesn't matter whan view you choose , no camera in GT6 is the same as real life , so none of us are right , i simply stated:

and you for some reason say "nonsense" , don't even know where you were going with that statement.

If you want the most realistic camera possible , you need to go to other games. The so-called "hood" camera in GT6 isn't actually placed in the hood of the car , but on the roof.

But the view is adjustable inside the game, the garage editor in GT5 allowed you to adjust the FOV at will. So the ability to adjust the FOV is in the game, you just don't have access to it.

 

[JoaoSilva]

Do you guys have driving license? I do and when I drive I dont even watch the cockpit, because I always watch the road, thats where you want to focus in. If I had to do a realistic camera myself (what I actually see with my own eyes) the cockpit wouldnt even appear, only the upper part of the steering wheel and the gauges, thats about it.

do you realise you can zoom-in the cockpit camera in GT6 so you only see the windshield?

@Johnnypenso you talking about the zoom-in feature like we have in GT6?

 

[Johnnypenso]

We should probably not get too far off topic talking about FOV's and cockpit views and such. Perhaps we should create another thread in the GT7 forum? Heading there now...

 

[JoaoSilva]

We should probably not get too far off topic talking about FOV's and cockpit views and such. Perhaps we should create another thread in the GT7 forum? Heading there now...

If you are creating one , please link us to it 👍

 

[Johnnypenso]

If you are creating one , please link us to it 👍

Your wish is my command sir: Cockpit view and adjustable field of view. Is it a must in GT7?

 

[lancia delta hf]

Do you guys have driving license? I do and when I drive I dont even watch the cockpit, because I always watch the road, thats where you want to focus in. If I had to do a realistic camera myself (what I actually see with my own eyes) the dashboard and a huge part of the whole cockpit wouldnt even appear, only the upper part of the steering wheel and the gauges, thats about it.

So are you trying to convince us all that when you drive in your real car you are totally unaware that your car has a cabin and you only see daylight (or the outside) and only your bonnet?

Now that is nonsense! It doesnt matter if you look at the road and dont see your dashboard, You do see it, Its just blured, If you want to talk about realistic and claim bonnet view is realistic then i'll will say it is not as everything is on focus and the human eye does not see everything in focus.

Lol at gt7 not needing interior, What about when project morpheus comes out? Pcars will support it, GT7 will have black interiors or gamers can just use bonnet view with the morpheus for extra realism instead, GT7 without interiors will be the laughing stock of the racing genre

 

[NixxxoN]

So are you trying to convince us all that when you drive in your real car you are totally unaware that your car has a cabin and you only see daylight (or the outside) and only your bonnet?

Now that is nonsense! It doesnt matter if you look at the road and dont see your dashboard, You do see it, Its just blured, If you want to talk about realistic and claim bonnet view is realistic then i'll will say it is not as everything is on focus and the human eye does not see everything in focus.

Lol at gt7 not needing interior, What about when project morpheus comes out? Pcars will support it, GT7 will have black interiors or gamers can just use bonnet view with the morpheus for extra realism instead, GT7 without interiors will be the laughing stock of the racing genre

Whatever you think, no matter what, the interior camera in GT6 is terrible and nowhere near realistic. It much needs to be improved in order to be use able. I completely refuse to use it because its just terrible to use to play, its that simple.

 

[synon]

If, "if they're included, you don't have to drive them", is reasonable logic, then why not just include every car from every game ever? Or how about creating cars that only have the popular bumper view?.

In the context of the thread, eg "cars in GT6", your reason for them not to be included because other PS4 games won't have such cars, seems pretty arbitrary. What if a game came out (eg Grid 4) also having cars with no modelled interiors?

 

[lancia delta hf]

Whatever you think, no matter what, the interior camera in GT6 is terrible and nowhere near realistic. It much needs to be improved in order to be use able. I completely refuse to use it because its just terrible to use to play, its that simple.

Well you are perfectly entitled to not use it or like it, But many do use it and like it. Its only natural people would like certain aspects more than others. It may not be perfect but i enjoy cockpit view more than any other especially when im in a close race bumper to bumper with friends.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Delete...moved to GT7 Forum.

 

[SavageEvil]

In terms of weather I would have agreed and certainly for the PS3 it still sets the standard, however DC once again shows the level that PD need to move to if they are looking to retain the visual crown.



Quite agree, dirty accumulation is needed as well as stuff like condensation on cars in the early hours, etc.

Aren't the things DC does attributed to the power of the system it's on and less about the direction they were going in? People were all up in arms about why PD does certain things but for the most part they enjoyed it. PD weather system is just as nuts as DC, it's a system that actually realistically simulates weather including fog, low lying haze(haven't seen that in DC yet and I own the game), PD's is limited on PS3 for glaringly obvious reasons. PD went as far to write a simulation no joke for tire smoke(seriously). Whilst DC weather looks much better, it's pretty hard to say that they are beyond PD simply because of DC as PD has yet to show anyone what weather looks like on PS4 powered GT game(the crux of the disparity).
PD's modellers even have parts for the cars like headlamps and tail lamps to ensure quality reproduction. Evolution has done wonders with DC but I still hold PD above them when it comes to details, something about that quirky team in Osaka. Sure they need to inject some personality in there and loosen up with the clinical presentation but I still enjoy their output when it's working. DC was built for PS4 strictly, but compared to GT6 built on PS3 DC isn't that far beyond what was done on PS3 at all. Dynamic weather system, check, realistic day night shift, check, PS3 is the limiting factor in output we are treated to. When GT is shown off on PS4 properly guaranteed everyone will be wondering just how they were able to accomplish it. If PD dumped GT6 code onto PS4 and have that running 1080p 60fps locked, next thing would be increase fidelity of in game models, trackside details resolutions of textures and more robust physics engine, aerodynamics simulation, tire physics, smoke physics and keep the same 1080p 60fps visual output what would folks say?
Case and point DC while looking phenomenal doesn't do anything beyond the scope of what PD is capable of, going of the ridiculous amount of simulated effects PD has crafted in a PS3 title shows that they are more than capable of matching DC in terms of car fidelity(doubt PD are going to go nuts with trackside details as 60fps output trumps that). I may be biased but I have played both games and DC is slick and beautiful and has some things that PD doesn't, who's to say PD hasn't had plans to have water pooling like DC on the windshield(GT5 had that not as well done but it had it) PD when you actually sit there and read about what they did on that PS3, the sheer amount of simulation is astounding. I have no doubts they'll bring the visual porn once again, now if they'd bring some atmosphere to those courses I'd be happier.

 

[Scaff]

Aren't the things DC does attributed to the power of the system it's on and less about the direction they were going in? People were all up in arms about why PD does certain things but for the most part they enjoyed it. PD weather system is just as nuts as DC, it's a system that actually realistically simulates weather including fog, low lying haze(haven't seen that in DC yet and I own the game), PD's is limited on PS3 for glaringly obvious reasons. PD went as far to write a simulation no joke for tire smoke(seriously).

Take a look at the context of the post I replied to, which stated that GT6's weather is pretty much ready for the PS4. When you look at what Evo have done in terms of weather in DC its clearly shows that GT6's weather is not pretty much ready for the PS4.

I'm well aware of what PD have and havn't done, none of which changes the point I made, which is that the GT weather is not pretty much ready for the PS4, that's not to say they can't do it, just to say that they still have work to do on it.

Whilst DC weather looks much better, it's pretty hard to say that they are beyond PD simply because of DC as PD has yet to show anyone what weather looks like on PS4 powered GT game(the crux of the disparity).

Good job I didn't say that then

PD's modellers even have parts for the cars like headlamps and tail lamps to ensure quality reproduction. Evolution has done wonders with DC but I still hold PD above them when it comes to details, something about that quirky team in Osaka.

You may want to re-check what Evo have done, because they did exactly the same thing for the lights and in terms of materials replicated and paint layers they have gone beyond what PD have done for GT6. Hence why I have said (repeatedly) that they are a good indicator of what PD need to target for the PS4.

Sure they need to inject some personality in there and loosen up with the clinical presentation but I still enjoy their output when it's working. DC was built for PS4 strictly, but compared to GT6 built on PS3 DC isn't that far beyond what was done on PS3 at all. Dynamic weather system, check, realistic day night shift, check, PS3 is the limiting factor in output we are treated to. When GT is shown off on PS4 properly guaranteed everyone will be wondering just how they were able to accomplish it. If PD dumped GT6 code onto PS4 and have that running 1080p 60fps locked, next thing would be increase fidelity of in game models, trackside details resolutions of textures and more robust physics engine, aerodynamics simulation, tire physics, smoke physics and keep the same 1080p 60fps visual output what would folks say?

If you simply look at feature count then yes (however GT6 doesn't have weather and day/night on all tracks) GT and DC match up in terms of weather and day night, however in terms of the visual quality of the two I can't even remotely agree that DC isn't quite a way ahead of GT6

Case and point DC while looking phenomenal doesn't do anything beyond the scope of what PD is capable of, going of the ridiculous amount of simulated effects PD has crafted in a PS3 title shows that they are more than capable of matching DC in terms of car fidelity(doubt PD are going to go nuts with trackside details as 60fps output trumps that). I may be biased but I have played both games and DC is slick and beautiful and has some things that PD doesn't, who's to say PD hasn't had plans to have water pooling like DC on the windshield(GT5 had that not as well done but it had it) PD when you actually sit there and read about what they did on that PS3, the sheer amount of simulation is astounding. I have no doubts they'll bring the visual porn once again, now if they'd bring some atmosphere to those courses I'd be happier.

Its dangerous to make assumptions you know, what makes you think I've not played both? I own every GT release including all the prologues, concept, PSP and the pre GT4 BMW 1-series demo (the very first thing with the 'ring). I'm more than aware of what PD can do and have done.

The point is we don't know what PD are capable of on the PS4, because we haven't seen it.

I've not said that PD can't do it (so I'm not sure why you keep inferring that I have), what I have said is that what Evo have done with DC shows that if PD want to compete with the best on the PS4 (in terms of car models and overall graphic presentation) then the GT6 models are not yet PS4 ready.

I've posted this link before, but its worth another look as it shows exactly what level of detail Evo has gone to with DC and why Poly count is not the only important factor (and on poly count alone PD win hands down)

http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2014/06/05/51-driveclub-details-might-just-blow-mind/

I think Pcars will have 60K LOD polygon models on PS4 and I don't think it has adaptive tessellation, so in comparison all the GT6 premiums could be considered to be PS4 ready.

Poly count alone is not enough to make a model PS4 ready, as I mentioned above and the link provided goes into more detail PD need to focus on more than just poly-count for the PS4 (particularity as Poly count is a diminishing return).

 

[PNuTButR]

I don't have my PS3 right now. How's the framerate when you get 16 Mini VGTs in a race together, perhaps all on screen at once?

 

[Zelalem]

Poly count alone is not enough to make a model PS4 ready, as I mentioned above and the link provided goes into more detail PD need to focus on more than just poly-count for the PS4 (particularity as Poly count is a diminishing return).

This. PD needs to do even more materials, high res textures and so on to match the quality of current gen racing games with their premium cars from PS3 on PS4. This gen is all about imperfections along with others and not about polycount anymore. GT6 vs Driveclub:

pictures are from this thread

 

[Ameer67]

Can we board the topic train?

@Zelalem I agree with you. Now we need to get into the nooks and crannies.

 

[BionicDerp]

Comes for awesome pictures of cars, gets fools babbling about personal preferences instead...

 

[Scaff]

Gets up, has an espresso, shakes head at more off-topic posts on a subject we have a thread for, deletes 22 posts.

Back on topic now please.

 

[Zer0]

This. PD needs to do even more materials, high res textures and so on to match the quality of current gen racing games with their premium cars from PS3 on PS4. This gen is all about imperfections along with others and not about polycount anymore. GT6 vs Driveclub:

pictures are from this thread

What is interesting is that PD have already most of the work done with its actual premium models. More realistic materials, textures, lighting, shadows, effects, etc... all these comes in a natural way at the time you start to develop in a more powerful hardware with more ram, more GPU effects, faster CPU, etc. Even the laziest developers are obliged to use more powerfull tools to bring by default much better graphics than they could obtain in the old PS3. As an example, even the worst of the standard car looks much realistic in GT6 and have more features than it had on GT4. In the worst case scenario, Premium cars will shine in PS4 (better shaders, better lighting, better effects, better rendering quality, etc).

Anyway, the last thing that I would be worried with the PD + PS4 combination is about realism and graphics, they are the best on that and the best at pushing the technological limits of the hardware one step beyond the rest of [racing] developers. PS4 will open them a new world of possibilities, as the PS3 did over PS2. It's common sense.

 

[BionicDerp]

What is interesting is that PD have already most of the work done with its actual premium models. More realistic materials, textures, lighting, shadows, effects, etc... all these comes in a natural way at the time you start to develop in a more powerful hardware with more ram, more GPU effects, faster CPU, etc. Even the laziest developers are obliged to use more powerfull tools to bring by default much better graphics than they could obtain in the old PS3. As an example, even the worst of the standard car looks much realistic in GT6 and have more features than it had on GT4. In the worst case scenario, Premium cars will shine in PS4 (better shaders, better lighting, better effects, better rendering quality, etc).

Anyway, the last thing that I would be worried with the PD + PS4 combination is about realism and graphics, they are the best on that and the best at pushing the technological limits of the hardware one step beyond the rest of [racing] developers. PS4 will open them a new world of possibilities, as the PS3 did over PS2. It's common sense.

Looked up the basic specs, and apparently the Ps3 had one core(?), and the Ps4 has basically 8 cores running at 1.4 Ghz. I'm expecting the most from GT8.

The M4 is definitely ready for next gen. Kinda hoping more LMP cars get the premium treatment... So many hopes!

 

[Scaff]

What is interesting is that PD have already most of the work done with its actual premium models. More realistic materials, textures, lighting, shadows, effects, etc... all these comes in a natural way at the time you start to develop in a more powerful hardware with more ram, more GPU effects, faster CPU, etc. Even the laziest developers are obliged to use more powerfull tools to bring by default much better graphics than they could obtain in the old PS3. As an example, even the worst of the standard car looks much realistic in GT6 and have more features than it had on GT4. In the worst case scenario, Premium cars will shine in PS4 (better shaders, better lighting, better effects, better rendering quality, etc).

Forgive me for waiting until we actually see some evidence of that.

Anyway, the last thing that I would be worried with the PD + PS4 combination is about realism and graphics, they are the best on that and the best at pushing the technological limits of the hardware one step beyond the rest of [racing] developers.

And yet they have made some questionable decisions when it comes to managing the technical limits of he PS3 hardware, as such an assumption that 'once the king, always the king' I'm taking with a large pinch of salt.

As things stand right now two titles will be beating PD to the punch on the PS4 (in terms of setting benchmarks), DC in terms of visuals, PCars in terms of Simulation and quite frankly both in terms of career structure. PD rest on their laurels with GT7 at their own peril.

PS4 will open them a new world of possibilities, as the PS3 did over PS2. It's common sense.

Odd they said the PS3 was just what they needed to do everything they couldn't on the PS2 and they ended up moaning about the PS3. Again not sure I'm going to take the assumption that the PS4 will be the redemption of PD and GT without seeing the evidence.

 

[Zer0]

Forgive me for waiting until we actually see some evidence of that.

And yet they have made some questionable decisions when it comes to managing the technical limits of he PS3 hardware, as such an assumption that 'once the king, always the king' I'm taking with a large pinch of salt.

As things stand right now two titles will be beating PD to the punch on the PS4 (in terms of setting benchmarks), DC in terms of visuals, PCars in terms of Simulation and quite frankly both in terms of career structure. PD rest on their laurels with GT7 at their own peril.

Odd they said the PS3 was just what they needed to do everything they couldn't on the PS2 and they ended up moaning about the PS3. Again not sure I'm going to take the assumption that the PS4 will be the redemption of PD and GT without seeing the evidence.

I'm not going to enter into a discussion about this, neither pretended to start it. Just my opinion like yours. For example to me does not make any sense to compare the graphics or effects achieved by DC in PS4 with the graphics achieved in GT6 with a PS3 to know who is "beating" who with not even a single screen available of a GT developed under the same hardware. I see many things wrong in that arguing but I should not care. Common sense apply at title evolutions between hardware generations, is not magic, and GT6 in PS3 was a technological tour de force related to other developers efforts in the same console.

If you want let me know your bet about GT7 graphics and we will see who was closer and farther in its expectations at the time that GT7 is presented in some tangible form.

My safe bet is that the premium car models in GT7 will look better and more realistic than in GT6, with better shadows, with better reflection, with better lighting, with better driver models, with better materials, with better tyres, etc. The weather effects will be better than in GT7, closer to DC to than in GT6. Night/day transitions effects will be more realistic than in GT6. The game will run at least at 1080p/60 with a very nice image quality and with a more stable framerate than PS3 in the same racing conditions. Standards, if finally are included, will look better than in GT6. That's my very minimum bet for GT7, graphics related. Time will tell.

And that's all, still a little off-topic but what I'm not going to enter to discuss are gameplay personal opinions, personal point of views or other out of context stuff, specially after two moderation warnings.

 

[Scaff]

I'm not going to enter into a discussion about this, neither pretended to start it. Just my opinion like yours. For example to me does not make any sense to compare the graphics or effects achieved by DC in PS4 with the graphics achieved in GT6 with a PS3 to know who is "beating" who with not even a single screen available of a GT developed under the same hardware. I see many things wrong in that arguing but I should not care. Common sense apply at title evolutions between hardware generations, is not magic, and GT6 in PS3 was a technological tour de force related to other developers efforts in the same console.

I'm not comparing the graphics of GT6 to DC, I'm saying that DC is a benchmark that PD need to aim for on the PS4 and on the context of the thread topic that means that the current models are not PS4 ready.

If you want let me know your bet about GT7 graphics and we will see who was closer and farther in its expectations at the time that GT7 is presented in some tangible form.

I have no doubt that the models PD finally end up producing for GT7 will be insanely detailed (standards I'm not discussing - they have, in my opinion no place in a PS4 title - but that's another thread), however poly-count is not the factor that will differentiate on the PS4 titles, paint effects, materials, lighting and environment will play just as big a part. Hence the reason why DC manages what it does with half the polys of GT6 premiums.

In that regard PD are effectively in less well traveled waters, however should they fail to better DC in that regard then the graphics crown they have always held for driving titles on the PS platforms is gone, and like it or not that has always been a sales point for the series.

My safe bet is that the premium car models in GT7 will look better and more realistic than in GT6, with better shadows, with better reflection, with better lighting, with better driver models, with better materials, with better tyres, etc. The weather effects will be better than in GT7, closer to DC to than in GT6. Night/day transitions effects will be more realistic than in GT6. The game will run at least at 1080p/60 with a very nice image quality and with a more stable framerate than PS3 in the same racing conditions. Standards, if finally are included, will look better than in GT6. That's my very minimum bet for GT7, graphics related. Time will tell.

So your minimum point would be that it looks better than GT6 on the PS3?

That does seem to be setting the bar a little low.

Oh and I would expect a locked framerate as a minimum, the variable nonsense on the PS3 was very off putting.

And that's all, still a little off-topic but what I'm not going to enter to discuss are gameplay personal opinions, personal point of views or other out of context stuff, specially after two moderation warnings.

No problem at all.

 

[Zer0]

I'm not comparing the graphics of GT6 to DC, I'm saying that DC is a benchmark that PD need to aim for on the PS4 and on the context of the thread topic that means that the current models are not PS4 ready.

I have no doubt that the models PD finally end up producing for GT7 will be insanely detailed (standards I'm not discussing - they have, in my opinion no place in a PS4 title - but that's another thread), however poly-count is not the factor that will differentiate on the PS4 titles, paint effects, materials, lighting and environment will play just as big a part. Hence the reason why DC manages what it does with half the polys of GT6 premiums.

But that benchmark is possible only thanks to running in a much better hardware than GT6. You think that the GT6 models will not use the "default to any developer" better shaders, lighting or effects available in the PS4? if not I don't understand why you think that aren't PS4 ready. The 3D models itself and the technology under them are better and more advanced than in Drive club and the better "colors" to paint the models will come free once PD steps into the PS4 package.

In that regard PD are effectively in less well traveled waters, however should they fail to better DC in that regard then the graphics crown they have always held for driving titles on the PS platforms is gone, and like it or not that has always been a sales point for the series.

I would wait until GT plays its race in the PS4 before voicing any crown lost, it's clear who is the winner given the relative hardware specs and would not be rare if PD visually outperform, again, every game in the same system when GT7 is seen, as happenned with GT1, GT3 and GT5... Their natural evolution between generations is pointing at that direction, they have the experience and the power under the hood to outperform by a large scale anything seen in GT6 and they are far from timid at the time of pushing realistic graphics or developing newer graphical effects.

So your minimum point would be that it looks better than GT6 on the PS3?

That does seem to be setting the bar a little low.

Oh and I would expect a locked framerate as a minimum, the variable nonsense on the PS3 was very off putting.

Yes, that's my safe minimum in this discussion (I don't need to bet higher to make my point) but isn't what I expect. I expect great things graphically in the PS4 given all what they acchieved in PS3 with a very outdated hardware. PD are now in an excellent position to surprise with GT, as a whole, more than any other developer or currently announced racing game, no matter the system. Too high?