Formula 1 Grand Prix de Monaco 2016

[Samus]

Why shouldn't he have kept it? Like it or not the rule is you can't go off track and gain an advantage and/or prevent an overtaking opportunity. Hamilton lost time going off, not gained, no overtake was prevented by going off so no rule was broken. Once he rejoined it was back to normal and that is when he makes his hard but fair move to prevent a pass. All legal as decided by the stewards.

Mind you I don't know why I'm posting this, we know your mind was made up instantly.

 

[niky]

Hamilton Rule Addendum Number One: When giving back a place gained by going off track, you cannot challenge for that place until the second corner after the position change. Applied retroactively. Belgian GP (2008).

Hamilton Rule Addendum Number Two: When losing speed by going off-track, you are not allowed to defend against any overtakes until the second corner after the excursion. Applied retroactively. 10 second penalty for L. Hamilton, Monaco GP (2016).

 

[RACECAR]

Finally watched the race on the DVR and just...wow.


Three things that baffled me beyond belief:

Kyvat: What the 🤬 is wrong with this guy? Is he trying to get kicked out of the sport? He runs into the same driver multiple times at one race, overtakes cars under the safety car period and then completely disobeyed the stewards when told to give the positions back in another one and then today decides to make a pass that had no chance in hell of working. Not at all disproving the choice management made, only justifying it even more

Ericcson: Despite the team telling Nasr to make way for him at a certain corner, decides to make the same stupid move well before said corner. What..the hell..

Red Bull: Seriously, how the hell do you forget that another one of your cars in coming in for softer tires? That is by far the silliest blunder I've ever seen, far wore then the way Mercedes screwed up last year. This is the sort of crap I expect from a new team, not from a 4 time Contructors championship winning team.

 

[GroupB]

I think people sometimes forget that the radio transmissions we hear are delayed.
Nasr had already ignored the order to let Ericsson past by the time Ericsson got desperate and made the move.

 

[TiZzla]

Regardless of the rules it's just really unfair when a driver makes a mistake and cuts the track like Lewis did and takes no penalty for it. It happens all the time at the majority of the tracks these days and just ruins the fairness of competition. If you cut a chicane like that you should instantly be given a time penalty of some sort, what happened between Lewis and Dan was just ugly, I wish Dan had just kept his foot in it like Lewis did to Nico in Barcelona and they had both crashed. At least that would be fair.

 

[Barra333]

I think people sometimes forget that the radio transmissions we hear are delayed.
Nasr had already ignored the order to let Ericsson past by the time Ericsson got desperate and made the move.

Yeah, I have a feeling that Nasr was meant to let Ericsson through at turn one on the previous lap. Possibly before, given the tone of the radio messages we heard.

 

[niky]

Regardless of the rules it's just really unfair when a driver makes a mistake and cuts the track like Lewis did and takes no penalty for it. It happens all the time at the majority of the tracks these days and just ruins the fairness of competition. If you cut a chicane like that you should instantly be given a time penalty of some sort, what happened between Lewis and Dan was just ugly, I wish Dan had just kept his foot in it like Lewis did to Nico in Barcelona and they had both crashed. At least that would be fair.

When you're chasing a championship, you don't crash into competitors to make a point.

You do it to ensure that they don't gain any points over you.

-

The stewards would have punished Hamilton if he was judged to have gained an advantage by leaving the track. If he straightlined the chicane instead of attempting to get back on track right away (as he did), he would definitely have been penalized. As it was, the angle at which he returned to the track made him much slower out of the chicane than if he'd simply run it properly. And that's what set off the attempt by Ricciardo to overtake.

 

[GTPorsche]

If it was Kvyat, he would have stuck it right up beside Hamilton and wrecked them both.

That move didn't ruin Ricciardo's race, his crew did. If they had the tires ready for him, as they should have had, he wouldn't have been in that position.

 

[Barra333]

If it was Kvyat, he would have stuck it right up beside Hamilton and wrecked them both.

That move didn't ruin Ricciardo's race, his crew did. If they had the tires ready for him, as they should have had, he wouldn't have been in that position.

I think that there are a few drivers out there who would have turned both cars into a pile of carbon fiber.

 

[Betty blue]

I find it intersting that the same people blaming Rosberg for Spain's crash are the once who are defending Hamilton's incident with Ricci after the chicane. Anyhow ! I feel sorry for Ricci he should have won it but this **** happens.

 

[niky]

I find it intersting that the same people blaming Rosberg for Spain's crash are the once who are defending Hamilton's incident with Ricci after the chicane. Anyhow ! I feel sorry for Ricci he should have won it but this **** happens.

My initial reaction there, as here, was that the lead driver was at fault.

My second reaction there, as here, after viewing it over and over, is that the lead driver started his defensive move before there was an overlap. So to penalize one without penalizing the other would be unfair.

 

[Barra333]

My initial reaction there, as here, was that the lead driver was at fault.

My second reaction there, as here, after viewing it over and over, is that the lead driver started his defensive move before there was an overlap. So to penalize one without penalizing the other would be unfair.

The problem is that Hamilton fans think that he was 100% in the right both times, despite the situations being eerily similar.
Personally, I think the lead driver was douchey while being just legal both times.

 

[JockeP22]

20 seconds added to Werhlin race time drops him to 14t in the race and Ericsson gets a three place penalty for Montreal and points on his license for his part in the Sauber Shambles.

Oh Marcus.

This maybe hyperbole but is that the biggest pit screw up in F1 history? I can't recall a more egregious error from a team.

Ferrari at Nurburgring '99 ?

 

[Betty blue]

My initial reaction there, as here, was that the lead driver was at fault.

My second reaction there, as here, after viewing it over and over, is that the lead driver started his defensive move before there was an overlap. So to penalize one without penalizing the other would be unfair.

Yet, in Rosbers's case he was defending his position heading into a corner which is ligit, where as in Hamilton's case it was at the beginning of a straight line while he was recovering after the chicane which in my opinion is some sort of dirty blockage.

 

[RACECAR]

Honestly even if Ricciardo managed to get right there, it was wet and he had slicks going to a very tight corner that two cars can't fit through. I think had he not backed out, his race, already killed by his team's screw up, would've ended there.

 

[niky]

Yet, in Rosbers's case he was defending his position heading into a corner which is ligit, where as in Hamilton's case it was at the beginning of a straight line while he was recovering after the chicane which in my opinion is some sort of dirty blockage.

On corner entry, you are specifically supposed to leave space if there's an overlap.

In both cases this year, the drivers were defending a corner exit when the hit/near-miss occurred. A corner exit is a bit different.

In Rosberg v. Hamilton, Nico's move towards the inside line is unnatural, but he began it before Hamilton had any overlap, so he had the right to it, as well, and it was Hamilton's job to back out. The stewards ruled it a racing incident as the timing was so tight that they judged neither of the drivers had time to react. If they did find that there was time to react, that would be Hamilton's fault, because Rosberg's move right was telegraphed well ahead of time and was very deliberate.

In Hamilton v. Ricciardo, the leading driver on the inside line, as long as he has track position, has the right to run out to the edge of the track, which Hamilton starts doing before there is any overlap. It's the following driver who has to back out. This has always been the case in F1, whether there's a wall or run-off on the corner exit. Rosberg has done this as well, on occassion. It's aggressive. It's dangerous, it's not something I've ever seen the stewards penalize.

This is why the crash between Nico and Lewis in Spa 2014 was so controversial... on one hand, Lewis had a full overlap going into a corner entry, on the other, Nico had the lead coming out of a corner exit (on two linked corners). It was a notorious non-call, especially considering Nico had Lewis right up alongside him, but those are the breaks, sometimes.

 

[Betty blue]

On corner entry, you are specifically supposed to leave space if there's an overlap.

In both cases this year, the drivers were defending a corner exit when the hit/near-miss occurred. A corner exit is a bit different.

In Rosberg v. Hamilton, Nico's move towards the inside line is unnatural, but he began it before Hamilton had any overlap, so he had the right to it, as well, and it was Hamilton's job to back out. The stewards ruled it a racing incident as the timing was so tight that they judged neither of the drivers had time to react. If they did find that there was time to react, that would be Hamilton's fault, because Rosberg's move right was telegraphed well ahead of time and was very deliberate.

In Hamilton v. Ricciardo, the leading driver on the inside line, as long as he has track position, has the right to run out to the edge of the track, which Hamilton starts doing before there is any overlap. It's the following driver who has to back out. This has always been the case in F1, whether there's a wall or run-off on the corner exit. Rosberg has done this as well, on occassion. It's aggressive. It's dangerous, it's not something I've ever seen the stewards penalize.

This is why the crash between Nico and Lewis in Spa 2014 was so controversial... on one hand, Lewis had a full overlap going into a corner entry, on the other, Nico had the lead coming out of a corner exit (on two linked corners). It was a notorious non-call, especially considering Nico had Lewis right up alongside him, but those are the breaks, sometimes.

Yes that's right ! They were both defending a corner exit. However, considering the speed & next corner's entry distance, Rosberg in Spain was within the breaking point and had the right to take defending position. But in Monaco, Hamilton was out of position and recovering way far of his breacking point into turn 12. In my opinion Hamilton should have yileded to the left and defended his position at turn 12.

 

[_Springy_]

Yes, he was entitled to do it - but he cut the chicane. He didn't gain a place for it, but he held one that he shouldn't have kept. And that's why the move was dirty; it looked like Hamilton cut Ricciardo off to stop Ricciardo taking a place that he should have had.

Certainly it wasn't the cleanest move, but it was legal for him to keep the place. Hamilton was the lead car at the time when he ran wide, and was not being challenged for the lead; by which I mean, Daniel was not attempting an overtake in that specific instance. What Brundle talks about now and again is when one driver is attempting to overtake another, and that driver runs wide, to keep the position! That's not what happened here...

Lewis didn't get a penalty because he didn't chop to defend; he was simply coming back onto the dry line. Which is naturally where any driver would head for in those conditions, as that's where you get the most traction, for corner exit. Watch the onboard replay again and you'll see, Lewis is following the dry line. I really don't think Lewis saw Daniel there to be honest. Clearly the stewards don't think there was any ill-intent there either, otherwise they'd have penalized him.

And, again, Ricciardo would not have been able to get past anyway. The difference in drive of the two cars off the chicane, and the speed they were carrying up to Tabac, was not enough to allow Daniel to get a full cars length in front of Lewis, before the corner. So he'd have to have gone round the outside at Tabac, which would never have worked, because there was so little grip there.

Mind you I don't know why I'm posting this, we know your mind was made up instantly.

This! 👍

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The difference in drive of the two cars off the chicane, and the speed they were carrying up to Tabac, was not enough to allow Daniel to get a full cars length in front of Lewis, before the corner.

And yet when Hamilton collided with Rosberg in Barcelona, apparently all that he needed to do to claim the place was get his front wing alongside Rosberg's rear wheels.

 

[_Springy_]

And yet when Hamilton collided with Rosberg in Barcelona, apparently all that he needed to do to claim the place was get his front wing alongside Rosberg's rear wheels.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth, as I never said anything of the sort. In fact I kept saying the incident in Spain was a freak accident, as it was the result of both drivers going for the same piece of tarmac, at the exact same time. And that neither driver was really to blame. I suggest you go back and read the thread again.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Yet, in Rosbers's case he was defending his position heading into a corner which is ligit, where as in Hamilton's case it was at the beginning of a straight line while he was recovering after the chicane which in my opinion is some sort of dirty blockage.

Nico went completely off racing line to stop Lewis overtaking him on track much wider than Monaco. Monaco Lewis was following natural exit of corner, gave Daniel too much room if anything but understandable he would want to keep car where there is most grip. Impossible for Daniel to pass either side as won't have the grip to make it. It's like people were expecting Lewis to pull of the racing line, let Daniel through and then carry on. You don't surrender position if it's your right of way especially on track like Monaco. Can't imagine any driver on the grid would go off racing line to help the car behind overtake them.

 

[_Springy_]

Nico went completely off racing line to stop Lewis overtaking him on track much wider than Monaco. Monaco Lewis was following natural exit of corner, gave Daniel too much room if anything but understandable he would want to keep car where there is most grip. Impossible for Daniel to pass either side as won't have the grip to make it. It's like people were expecting Lewis to pull of the racing line, let Daniel through and then carry on. You don't surrender position if it's your right of way especially on track like Monaco. Can't imagine any driver on the grid would go off racing line to help the car behind overtake them.

You and @prisonermonkeys really are two cheeks of the same arse, honestly. You're biased against Rosberg to the point of being delusional, and he's the same with Hamilton. Clearly neither of you have ever heard of impartiality. Together you both make these Formula One threads laughable. Congratulations!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Now you're just putting words in my mouth, as I never said anything of the sort.

You didn't, but Hamilton's defenders did.

 

[_Springy_]

You didn't, but Hamilton's defenders did.

But what they said, has nothing to do with me. Clearly you're just clutching at straws now!

 

[Saidur_Ali]

You and @prisonermonkeys really are two cheeks of the same arse, honestly. You're biased against Rosberg to the point of being delusional, and he's the same with Hamilton. Clearly neither of you have ever heard of impartiality. Together you back make these Formula One threads laughable. Congratulations!

Not being delusional about Nico, at the end of day Lewis would have likely overtaked Nico last race left or right due to speed difference. Nico forced him to take avoiding action as only way to keep in the lead and as teammates on such an early part of race seemed aggressive thing to do but rules are such you can get away with such things and Nico knows this given how aggressive he seems to be on closing the door while racing against others. Can't recall anyone else going that far right in that race or in previous races. I would say the same if Lewis did it.

Daniel this race had no chance overtaking Lewis either left or right on that part of track, rather optimistic move in the wet trying to force an overtake or get him somehow penalised due to how hard it is around that track to get an opportunity and probably frustration of being behind through no fault of his own. Daniel I'm sure would take same line as Lewis if positions were reversed. Seems silly to put would extra load on tyres corner exit to drive on to wet part of track to help a competitor have a small chance of making an overtake attempt.

 

[DQuaN]

The stewards would have punished Hamilton if he was judged to have gained an advantage by leaving the track.

This, this and this.

I'm getting so sick of armchair experts letting their bias rule their brains. Do you really think you know the rules better than the stewards, Charlie Whiting, and the ex F1 driver with them? (I didn't catch who it was for this race).

 

[_Springy_]

Not being delusional about Nico, at the end of day Lewis would have likely overtaked Nico last race left or right due to speed difference. Nico forced him to take avoiding action as only way to keep in the lead and as teammates on such an early part of race seemed aggressive thing to do but rules are such you can get away with such things and Nico knows this given how aggressive he seems to be on closing the door while racing against others. Can't recall anyone else going that far right on that race or in previous races. I would say the same if Lewis did it.

Sure you would. And I'm Queen Elizabeth the Second. The ninetieth birthday celebrations were splendid, by the way; thanks for asking! 👍

You'd have a point on that one, if Nico had moved over to block Lewis off, after Lewis had moved. Except he didn't. Both drivers, by freak coincidence, moved over at exactly the same time. So you're point is, well...you don't have one! As basically what you're saying is that Nico mind-read that Lewis was going to go right, so that he could go exactly at the same, to block him off? Pull the other one!

Daniel this race had no chance overtaking Lewis either left or right on that part of track, rather optimistic move in the wet trying to force an overtake or get him somehow penalised due to how hard it is around that track to get an opportunity and probably frustration of being behind through no fault of his own. Daniel I'm sure would take same line as Lewis if positions were reversed. Seems silly to put would extra load on corner exit to drive on to wet part of track to help a competitor have a small chance of making an overtake attempt.

At least here you speak some sense.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Sure you would. And I'm Queen Elizabeth the Second. The ninetieth birthday celebrations were splendid, by the way; thanks for asking! 👍

You'd have a point on that one, if Nico had moved over to block Lewis off, after Lewis had moved. Except he didn't. Both drivers, by freak coincidence, moved over at exactly the same time. So you're point is, well...you don't have one! As basically what you're saying is that Nico mind-read that Lewis was going to go right, so that he could go exactly at the same, to block him off? Pull the other one!



At least here you speak some sense.

I'm sure I would. I think personally it's quite dangerous thing to do. You know you are travelling a lot slower, Nico placed his car at first so he could cover both sides, looked like he looked in mirror and decided to turn right even more and still carried on all the way right while having a look in his right mirror. He knew what he was doing and I think that's too aggressive at them closing speeds, could have been a really dangerous accident. Formula 3 race on 28th shows at even lower speeds you can get quite scary crash, wonder what would have happened if say rear wheel of Nico went over Lewis at such speeds which could have happened if Lewis never took avoiding action by going on to the grass.

Makes a lot of sense to me. This race is quite different, one dry line at that point in race and generally the case of follow the leader through that part of track anyway. Only way Daniel would get ahead was if Lewis moved over for him as to get traction difference he would also need to be where Lewis was on track and he was only going to be briefly in with chance due to slow initial speed Lewis had. If Lewis did give a bit more space, naturally Daniel would have to still back out of throttle as car would want to swap ends with slicks on wet part of track still like he did struggle once Lewis was further ahead. It's not wise for Lewis to do the same so don't get all the talk of it being dirty or it being block as move wasn't on and would be strange thing for the lead car to move to left to go on wetter part of track on a corner you turn right into.

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

Well that was an awesome Monaco GP. Very good driving by Lewis with a bit of luck.

Such a shame for Riccardo, seems like the focus is on the other driver atm and not so much on him anymore. Off course it's probably my mind playing tricks but it seems that they do the impossible for Max and can't even do the basic stuff for Riccardo. I know I'm reading too much about it and it's just probably a chain of bad luck but still I can't help but wonder and Riccardo must be feeling the same as me the way he talk about RBR atm.

Ah well a wet race like I like them in Monaco. I was so happy when I realized Hamilton was ahead of Riccardo, I didnt even notice there were still like 40 laps to go ^^; Ate some nails during it but it was awesome.

 

[_Springy_]

I'm sure I would. I think personally it's quite dangerous thing to do. You know you are travelling a lot slower, Nico placed his car at first so he could cover both sides, looked like he looked in mirror and decided to turn right even more and still carried on all the way right while having a look in his right mirror. He knew what he was doing and I think that's too aggressive at them closing speeds, could have been a really dangerous accident. Formula 3 race on 28th shows at even lower speeds you can get quite scary crash, wonder what would have happened if say rear wheel of Nico went over Lewis at such speeds which could have happened if Lewis never took avoiding action by going on to the grass.

As I said several posts back, biased and delusional. You'd definitely not be saying any of this, had Hamilton done what Rosberg did. You just need something to hate Nico over, so you overlook all the facts. Even the stewards, who are far more qualified to judge than you, called it nothing more than an unfortunate set of coincidences, that resulted in an accident. And that neither did anything dangerous. But you're a Hamilton militant, so you can't accept that.