Forza 6 vs Other Games - Physics Discussion Thread

[Saidur_Ali]

Are you really this dense, or are you just trolling?

Sim steering as an assist is broken. It is there ONLY to remove the aids that are in place on the default xbox one controller. This isn't needed on a wheel, because:

The main three main things that Sim Steering changes for the default xbox one controller, is the removal of a counter steering assist. Which helps you to correct a slide. The reduction of speed sensitive steering, and an artificial increase to the steering speed. Which means that: .

Again, and say it with me. Sim steering as an assist, is intended for use by xbox one gamepad users. As the aids that the option removes, are not present on the wheel!

All it does with regards to the wheel, is making the steering extremely twitchy at the wheel center. I am not talking about the first 90° here, I am talking about the first 5° to 10°. Which makes turn in unrealistically hard on a wheel. Again, I am not saying that the WHEEL MAPPING IS BROKEN, as the full 900° is usable. Just something is going on in the first 5° to 10°, which is at the wheel center. This is why I say "Sim steering is broken", as it isn't a usable assist on a wheel. Which means that wheel users can not use it, as it makes the wheels center hyper sensitive. As it is intended to make "initial turn-in is direct and linear", on the default Xbox controller. Wheel users, such as myself, DO NOT NEED THIS. As our steering is already "DIRECT AND LINEAR" while using "NORMAL STEERING", as the hidden controller aids are ONLY IN EFFECT FOR THE DEFAULT XBOX CONTROLLER. Sim steering should have zero effect on a racing wheel at all, it certainly shouldn't make it hyper sensative at the center. But it does. I dont know what to tell you, but the mapping itself is fine. I have checked, multiple times. Because the mapping of my physical wheel to that of in game, was my first thought when using a wheel back in FM4; when sim steering first appeared as an option.

Amazes me still you don't know the difference between normal and simulation steering.

I find it strange that you highlight what Dan said about wheel users will experience and then attribute it to default Xbox controller. Anyway hopefully one day you will understand what simulation steering is - Only way you get direct 1:1 control with wheel.

 

[mrPetros]

saidur ali, what is your gamertag man? you keep investing a lot of effort in these subjects.
I recon better to run some laps with you than read you

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Saidur Ali, what is your gamertag man? you keep investing a lot of effort in these subjects.
I recon better to run some laps with you than read you

My gamer tag I have bolded, I don't play much on Xbox One. Don't have FM6 but do have FM5. I don't really plan on playing driving games for a month or two though on any platform but likely be Assetto Corsa if you do have PC and the game, then can run some laps on there.

 

[PASM]

I think you should agree to disagree, because this is getting a bit tiresome to read. Also, calling someone dense is not the way to go 👎

 

[ImaRobot]

I will miss the point if you change your stance after making the point. I do wonder what you think to Ialyrn's post regarding simulation steering, does he have thick glasses on too?

I didn't change my stance though. The reactions and finesse you'd need between simulation steering and Project Cars and how you'd approach the two controls are very very similar. Snap oversteer, tank slapper situations, with over sensitive steering. However, the inputs between the games are never going to be the same. You can literally go try this out right now by setting your controls to its default pattern. Like I said, if you would have even attempted it, than you would have noticed, but instead you choose to go off information that you don't have. My view is not changing, infact its literally exactly the same.

What post are you referring to with @Ialyrn

I think you should agree to disagree, because this is getting a bit tiresome to read. Also, calling someone dense is not the way to go 👎

Isn't that the point of this thread though? To discuss differing opinions, whether you agree or not? Telling someone they are contradicting themselves, and also posting information that is blatantly wrong while having no experience with a certain game is definitely not a way to go either. If someone is using that lack of experience to make opinions of something, but disregard any truth that people are saying, then yes, that is dense. If dense isn't what he is, than a troll is. Isn't that something not allowed either?

Amazes me still you don't know the difference between normal and simulation steering.

I find it strange that you highlight what Dan said about wheel users will experience and then attribute it to default Xbox controller. Anyway hopefully one day you will understand what simulation steering is - Only way you get direct 1:1 control with wheel.

It amazes me that you choose to ignore any information that is proving you wrong. Literally everything. At this point, its hard to hold any credibility with you as you just seem to stick to what you say, even when shown otherwise.

 

[Tornado]

Are you really this dense, or are you just trolling?

The latter, obviously. It's important to remember that he's posting in this thread in a subforum for a game he isn't interested in to talk down to you as if you're an idiot over what happens in a game he hasn't actually played; and for no other reason than because YouTube comments sections have said things that fit his confirmation bias. Just treat him as an extension of Zer0 and go from there. Eventually he'll get called in something indefensible like he did in the post I linked on the last page, and he'll simply leave the thread entirely instead of respond; but don't take it so seriously before that happens.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Just treat him as an extension of Zer0 and go from there.

Ouch

 

[ImaRobot]

The latter, obviously. It's important to remember that he's posting in this thread in a subforum for a game he isn't interested in to talk down to you as if you're an idiot over what happens in a game he hasn't actually played; and for no other reason than because YouTube comments sections have said things that fit his confirmation bias. Just treat him as an extension of Zer0 and go from there. Eventually he'll get called in something indefensible like he did in the post I linked on the last page, and he'll simply leave the thread entirely instead of respond; but don't take it so seriously.

He'll then also come back and like any post that is in disagreement with the poster he got into a debate with, in what seems to be a last ditch effort.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

If a number of you can't argue the point (I wonder why...), then I don't see a reason to continue with this discussion.

 

[ImaRobot]

If a number of you can't argue the point (I wonder why...), then I don't see a reason to continue with this discussion.

As if you where discussing anything in the first place, all you've been doing is telling people how their experience is wrong with the game, when you've had none with it. You then proceed to ignore anything that goes against your false point of view.

I have replied to your comment in full, however, So I'm not sure what you're getting at.

 

[mrPetros]

My gamer tag I have bolded, I don't play much on Xbox One. Don't have FM6 but do have FM5. I don't really plan on playing driving games for a month or two though on any platform but likely be Assetto Corsa if you do have PC and the game, then can run some laps on there.

you write a lot of stuff about forza 6 for a guy that doesnt have the game.
(and insist too?!)

also you write a lot of stuff for a guy that doesnt even play, but I guess all this time you devote on flaming forza (and other people) must be taken from somewhere.

anyway, games are games are games. the soonest you realize this, the better

 

[Saidur_Ali]

As if you where discussing anything in the first place, all you've been doing is telling people how their experience is wrong with the game, when you've had none with it. You then proceed to ignore anything that goes against your false point of view.

I have replied to your comment in full, however, So I'm not sure what your getting at.

If it is false, surely people with game can prove me wrong rather than just stating their opinions and proving me right. Oh wait, calling me dense is the way to go, that I'm trolling and I can't comprehend posts or I can't see. Would be good for a number of you to comprehend the first post before posting.

 

[ImaRobot]

If it is false, surely people with game can prove me wrong rather than just stating their opinions and proving me right. Oh wait, calling me dense is the way to go, that I'm trolling and I can't comprehend posts or I can't see. Would be good for a number of you to comprehend the first post before posting.

They have, and they did over and over again. Even @Ialyrn's video using simulation goes completely opposite of everything you've said about the setting, and you still haven't change your opinion that you made of a video game that you judged based off videos of some person driving horribly somewhere.

You brought up a post about aids with controls in concern of Ialryn and her wheel, yet it even states that the issue is with pads, not wheels. Yet you ignored when you where told otherwise.

You ignore the fact that the approach you'd have to take between simulation on Forza, and Project cars is similar.

You ignored a video because someone crashed, when it wasn't at their fault, but because they hydroplaned. Yet you blamed it on the physics and simulation steering being unplayable and not realistic.

You blame user initiated problems on the physics, get told otherwise, and disappear.

You are literally the only person not comprehending anything.

 

[mrPetros]

I think that both you Robot, and Ialyn even more, you are just getting your jimmies rustled for no reason and no purpose.

example: my aunt evangelia, 76, she thinks that forza 6 is the worst thing since nazism.
see if you care, or if it deducts from your enjoyment. lol

 

[ImaRobot]

I think that both you Robot, and Ialyn even more, you are just getting your jimmies rustled for no reason and no purpose.

example: my aunt evangelia, 76, she thinks that forza 6 is the worst thing since nazism.
see if you care, or if it deducts from your enjoyment. lol

Different situation though, because we purposely came here to discuss. Still, I'm not rustled, but more so baffled.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

They have, and they did over and over again. Even @Ialyrn's video using simulation goes completely opposite of everything you've said about the setting, and you still haven't change your opinion that you made of a video game that you judged based off videos of some person driving horribly somewhere.

You brought up a post about aids with controls in concern of Ialryn and her wheel, yet it even states that the issue is with pads, not wheels. Yet you ignored when you where told otherwise.

You ignore the fact that the approach you'd have to take between simulation on Forza, and Project cars is similar.

You ignored a video because someone crashed, when it wasn't at their fault, but because they hydroplaned. Yet you blamed it on the physics.

You blame user initiated problems on the physics, get told otherwise, and disappear.

You are literally the only person not comprehending anything.

Have you read what she wrote regarding simulation steering? Do you agree with these posts?: Link and Link

More like literally the only person comprehending anything.

 

[Tornado]

Ouch

Consider our dear departed Zer0's final post before Scaff had enough of him:

I rarely started a war, are others who can't tolerate a contrary opinion and becomes offended to the point to start grind axes and spit flamebait. As I said, with FM6 you have a reality check that should make you rethink your own post behaviour towards others.

But oh well talk about FM6, I'm not going to give you more replys on this.

And then:

If a number of you can't argue the point (I wonder why...), then I don't see a reason to continue with this discussion.

It's uncanny, and once you see the pattern you can't unsee it.

 

[ImaRobot]

Have you read what she wrote regarding simulation steering? Do you agree with these posts?: Link and Link

Don't own a wheel so I wouldn't know. On pad, though, its horribly bad and doesn't seem realistic at all.

What is it exactly that you don't agree with in that post? I'm sure you can go into detail with it and give us a very good explanation. What exactly is it that makes it so?

More like literally the only person comprehending anything.

Holy jesus are you serious? You've shown time and time again that even when proven wrong, that you still wont take any information on. Like mentioned, you'll disappear like that of the offspring of @Zer0

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Consider our dear departed Zer0's final post before Scaff had enough of him:
And then:


It's uncanny, and once you see the pattern you can't unsee it.

I'm abiding by the rules of this thread.

Funny seeing moderator saying I'm dense is not the way to go and then ImaRobot replying that I'm dense to the moderator.

Don't own a wheel so I wouldn't know. On pad, though, its horribly bad and doesn't seem realistic at all.

What is it exactly that you don't agree with in that post? I'm sure you can go into detail with it and give us a very good explanation. What exactly is it that makes it so?


Holy jesus are you serious? You've shown time and time again that even when proven wrong, that you still wont take any information on. Like mentioned, you'll disappear like that of the offspring of @Zer0

So you both think Simulation steering is bad / broken on your respective input of choice? Weren't you arguing that it is all fine and dandy with the wheel in another thread?

I won't take false information on. Thank you for the warning of how I will end up.

 

[ImaRobot]

So you both think Simulation steering is bad / broken on your respective input of choice? Weren't you arguing that it is all fine and dandy with the wheel in another thread?

I won't take false information on. Thank you for the warning of how I will end up.

I've never once responded about my experience with a wheel, as I have none. That is only the approach you take on things. I'm not even sure how you got that from that post.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

If a number of you can't argue the point (I wonder why...), then I don't see a reason to continue with this discussion.

That's a bit rich, since you've backed up precisely zero of your claims. Not surprising, as you don't have any experience with the game you're criticizing, of course.

If you want to keep insisting that things are broken, or there's major issues with the physics engine, prove it. Otherwise, I'll take your presence in this thread as the thinly-veiled baiting it is.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I've never once responded about my experience with a wheel, as I have none. That is only the approach you take on things.

I know you don't have experience with a wheel but what were you trying to say in this post for example: Link

You are now saying pad is horribly bad and doesn't seem realistic at all and not disagreeing with what Ialyrn said so what is your stance now?

 

[Ialyrn]

@Saidur_Ali I said that sim steering, as an assist, is broken where wheels are concerned. As it makes the steering hyper sensitive at the wheels center, and for the first few degrees there after. This is not down to the mapping of the wheel changing, but something else that we, as end users, have no access to. Baring that, and as I stated and showed in the Laferrari and P1 videos. Sim steering is still usable on a wheel, but it is not the desirable option when using said wheel. On a controller however, sim steering is perfectly fine. Which is where sim steering's use is intended, read what Dan Greenawalt said himself. You linked to it after all, and look for the countless amount of other information there is around in regards to sim steering. Even Thomas from fanatec says that normal steering should be used on a wheel, and he was partnered up with T10 at the time of FM4 [Link].

It is there for one reason alone, and that is to remove the assists that are applied to the default xbox one controller. This includes speed sensitive steering, filtering, a counter-steer aid, and steering speed. These particular items are not used when a wheel is plugged in for use in Forza, and as such, there is no need to change from "normal" to "sim" steering when using a wheel. That is unless you want those few little extra credits that only come with the whole "risk for reward" thing that T10 use.

Normal steering on forza with a wheel, well, it feels quite similar to Assetto Corsa on the exact same wheel hardware. In my opinion. This is with both the G920 wheel, and also the Thrustmaster TX wheel that I used to own. I am not saying it is exactly there, and forza still needs work. Especially where force feedback is concerned. As it stands though, I drive exactly the same in both games. I brake around the same points, I steer in at the same times and with the same amounts of lock, and I accelerate at the same times. And if I mess up, I get exactly the same reactions from the cars.

And this post isn't even taking into account the fact that I play iRacing, Raceroom, Race 07 (and countless other simbin games), Pcars, and pretty much any other sim based racer you can think off.

None of those games, not a single one, feel like Forza when sim steering is used on a wheel. So either sim steering in forza is the most accurate thing in the world of sim racing ever, and all the other sim based racing games are wrong. Or T10 need to relabel it as "Hardcore Mode", as it certainly is not simulation steering where a wheel is concerned.

p.s: I admit that I shouldn't have called you dense, apologies for that. But look at how you are posting? The way you are getting so confrontational over all of this, would even get a rise out of a buddhist monk.

 

[ImaRobot]

I know you don't have experience with a wheel but what were you trying to say in this post for example: Link

You are now saying pad is horribly bad and doesn't seem realistic at all and not disagreeing with what Ialyrn said so what is your stance now?

My stance isn't and hasn't changed. I've never said it was broken on the pad, just unrealistic.

If you are really having that hard a time comprehending the post, then I'm not sure what to tell you. I'm saying simulation on pad doesn't feel realistic at all. That has nothing to do with people being able to be fast with it.

I'm still waiting for this

What is it exactly that you don't agree with in that post? I'm sure you can go into detail with it and give us a very good explanation. What exactly is it that makes it so?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

That's a bit rich, since you've backed up precisely zero of your claims. Not surprising, as you don't have any experience with the game you're criticizing, of course.

If you want to keep insisting that things are broken, or there's major issues with the physics engine, prove it. Otherwise, I'll take your presence in this thread as the thinly-veiled baiting it is.

Ialyrn herself said Simulation steering is broken, ImaRobot is also saying it is bad and unrealistic. I have provided Dan's quote regarding how steering is. Now if with wheel (Only direct 1:1 steering option) the way cars behave with steering is broken, what does that say about handling?

My stance isn't and hasn't changed. I've never said it was broken on the pad.

If you are really having that hard a time comprehending post, then I'm not sure what to tell you. I'm saying simulation on pad doesn't feel realistic at all. That has nothing to do with people being able to be fast with it.

You said it is horribly bad, Ialyrn said it was broken. Both said it is unrealistic.

 

[ImaRobot]

Ialyrn herself said Simulation steering is broken, ImaRobot is also saying it is bad and unrealistic. I have provided Dan's quote regarding how steering is. Now if with wheel, only direct 1:1 steering option, way cars behave with steering is broken, what does that say about handling?

Nothing as you can judge the physics and handling off normal mode. The mode just removes assists.

You said it is horribly bad, Ialyrn said it was broken. Both said it is unrealistic.

And you're going where with this? Please elaborate because like usual you leave out a bunch and are being purposely vague.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Nothing as you can judge the physics and handling off normal mode. The mode just removes assists.


And you're going where with this? Please elaborate because like usual you leave out a bunch and are being purposely vague.

Why do both of you use steering assist to make car handle better and I gather more realistic? Why is it more realistic? Should I judge other games handling with steering assist on?

 

[ImaRobot]

Why do both of you use steering assist to make car handle better and I gather more realistic? Why is it more realistic? Should I judge other games handling with steering assist on?

I use the assist because I feel like it, and I like it better, and hyper sensitive steering has never been a thing I've encountered in real life. The fluidity and natural state of normal steering mimics that of the cars I've driven in real life. Not one time has a correction ended with my car reacting to opposite lock in the way that it has using that setting. I don't like it, that's why I don't use it.

However, like I said, I don't have a wheel, so I dont know how it reacts on that. Neither do you for that matter.

Steering assists is much different then what simulation steering is. It just removes the dampers on the pad and gives a very( very very very) direct input method with a very small amount of rotation, making it unrealistic compared to actually driving a car that actually has much more rotation.

What is it exactly that you don't agree with in that post? I'm sure you can go into detail with it and give us a very good explanation. What exactly is it that makes it so?

??

Another thing I'm wondering, is that when you drive a car, are you trying to say that it reacts like simulation steering does? What car have you driven that reacts like that?

 

[Ialyrn]

Ialyrn herself said Simulation steering is broken

Perhaps broken is the wrong word to use..... Lets put it this way. The intended device that sim steering is supposed to be used with, is with the xbox control pad; not a wheel. The wheel doesn't use the hidden controller aids in normal steering like the default xbox controller does (bolded because you keep ignoring this part, please dont, it is important to what I am discussing here with you). So by turning on sim steering while using a wheel, it makes everything hyper sensitive at the wheels center. As I said hours ago in a previous post, the controller emulates 180° of steering lock to lock. And sim steering, at its core, is designed to work with that particular device and its emulation of 180° of steering rotation.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Ialyrn herself said Simulation steering is broken, ImaRobot is also saying it is bad and unrealistic. I have provided Dan's quote regarding how steering is. Now if with wheel (Only direct 1:1 steering option) the way cars behave with steering is broken, what does that say about handling?

You said it is horribly bad, Ialyrn said it was broken. Both said it is unrealistic.

It says the "Simulation" steering aid is borked. Not the physics themselves. Simulation removes all assists on a controller, assists that exist to shrink the gap between controller and wheel fidelity. A counter-steer aid, filtering, and speed-sensitive steering all exist on a controller for good reason: if movements were 1:1 with the stick, the game would be practically undriveable, since we'd be able to apply max lock in an instant. Similar controller aids are in most console games - they're certainly present in GT6.

Like @Ialyrn said, it could more accurately be described as "Hardcore" mode, as it definitely makes things more difficult. But not necessarily more realistic.

The above is all about using a controller, as I too don't have much experience with a wheel on FM6, only on a pre-release beta version of the game.

One assist not working ideally =/= physics engine broken. What you're arguing is akin to saying GT6's entire physics engine is broken because of SRF. Actually, even that isn't a valid comparison, since Simulation steering in FM6 is a hardware-based issue. SRF actually changes the physics.

Now, you can answer this, since you asked for it.