Forza Motorsport 7: General Discussion

[05XR8]

In Single Player, is the '65 Mini, in a class of one or grouped with other vintage cars?

 

[Northstar]

In Single Player, is the '65 Mini, in a class of one or grouped with other vintage cars?

It’s in the major micros division, which is all small vintage cars.

 

[PJTierney]

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r/1028128-is-forza-7-gt2rs-accurate-ring-times.html

I used to work at Turn 10 Studios, the maker of Forza series... I'm credited in Motorsport 6, Horizon 3, and Motorsport 7, although my involvement with 7 was minimal before I moved on and I was surprised to see my name on it.

We made the physics as realistic as possible within our limitations... I guess you could consider us "pro" players since it was our job, but typically we tweaked the models to get very close to published/known lap times when available. Then as the product went through testing, some were tamed down and made easier to handle by the average and beginner players. If you take off the majority of the assists and set the steering to simulation, you can get really close to realistic physics, but you'll need a wheel/pedal setup. Simulation steering with a game pad is difficult.

As for the physics in Horizon series, we build the cars and send them to the publisher of the game (playground in the UK) and they completely change the base physics model which in turn alters the car behavior and makes it much more arcade-y. A lot more grip, more downforce, downforce that actually seems to be controlled by throttle. Over in the motorsport group, we always got a chuckle out of how playground made our cars drive.

With the 918, I can consistently get below 7, but not by much.. Never better than a low 6:59. There was another guy working on it that hit 6:57... It could be driving or the lines taken. 7:25 in a stock 991TT? That's extremely quick. I think I was in the 7:37s-7:40 range. As far as steering... the model that the physics engine ran has limitations we couldn't always design around, specifically with AWD cars all feel somewhat heavy and tendency to push. Combine that with the overall weight of the car, I think it is the heaviest of the hybrid trio there's only so much the game can do...

Some designers sorta let the physics engine do as it will and automatically build a car and then just test it for obvious defects, others would do a lot of research into how the cars should drive and manually code it to get as close as possible, so it could be not a lot of effort into it, or hit the wall with what could be done. Disc space can be a limiting factor with physics sometimes... It's always more content, more physics, or better graphics and as of the iterations I worked on, graphics had priority, then content, then physics.

The LaFerrari is very overpowered/underweight/too much aero grip/not enough drag in FM6. When manufacturers provide specs, we have to use what is given to meet licensing purposes and as you know Ferrari plays loose with their specs..

As far as the P1, it was fairly accurate since that was a cover car in FM5 (I think it was 5...). There is a P1 in the lobby of the studio, it's the display model that McLaren premiered with at auto shows.. A big issue with the hybrid cars is the power delivery of the electric motor, and the physics engine couldn't support electric engines/instant torque, so one of the devs went in and manually mapped the powerband for the P1 in 50 rpm increments to simulate the electric boost, but it still wasn't as responsive as it should be due to how the system ingests turbo powerplants, and for how the throttle response of the electric boosted cars should be. This was done with the 918 as well if I remember correctly, but still had the throttle response limitations. I learned things about P1 that were super cool from my time there, unfortunately I believe I'm under NDA for a lot of it.

Obviously, the cover cars tend to get a lot of attention from many people and directors, much more than any other cars in the game, so it wouldn't surprise me for the GT2RS to be close to real world performance... although I couldn't match the ring time yet, or even really come close, right around 7 min mark on my first lap and haven't tried again.

There was a group of super passionate car guys working on the game when I was there. A lot of people hired for the love of cars rather than being a traditional tech guy, and taught how to work with the software on the fly. Things may have changed slightly.

Sometimes manufacturers wouldn't give us spec sheets, so we had to seek out the data on our own.. Lot of digging and researching; sometimes we had to just design to what we think the performance should be especially with some of the racing cars. Art and physics are separate for the most part, art models the body of the car and the wheel appearance, then physics gets the art model and merges it with the body.

Some people did just sorta plug and go with the data that the physics engine spit out, adjust the acceleration/top speed then let the car go without addressing some issues. See the 930 turbo for example... not driving how you would think... Then go drive the RS 4.0 and it's almost magic, like you'd expect a car of that caliber to be.

When you play test against things like iRacing and such to compare models, where were are the limitation in the Forza modeling?

Is it the limitation of that hardware of the console or more of a balance between full on sim but also allowing a broader audience to enjoy the game?

I enjoy the Forza series but one of the things I always notice the tire load had minimal impact on grip . What I mean is as you load up a car into a corner and let the weight settle, you don't get more grip so you're better of driving with an aggressive turn-in as there is no penalty. Your thoughts?

The limitation is in the computing power of the console, and disk space to an extent/faster load times, but there is some mass audience appeal involved. It's hard to compare to iRacing since it isn't console based, although there is some comparison, it isn't really the benchmark.. but Assetto Corsa is on console now and has much better physics at the sake of polished graphics and it is pretty difficult with controller. If there was more competition on console, it would push things further, but the studio doesn't take the other driving sims on console seriously aside from GT which hasn't released anything in many years.

As I mentioned earlier, graphics and car count/content were the priorities, and physics was behind those on the list. The desire was to make the game where anyone can pick up the controller and turn laps, obviously will sell more games if it isn't too difficult... Some of us fought HARD to make it more realistic/simulator or have an option for it and if someone can't drive it then turn on the assists and try again.... Didn't quite fly. It's more of a sim than Horizon games, but it isn't where I'd like it to be. A lot of the current middle management was hired from EA/Need for Speed studio, so that says something about the direction the execs were taking. It seems to work and as the head of the studio drives a brand new Ford GT these days. Traded simulation and catering to enthusiasts to a mass audience and piles of money.

I know exactly what you mean about tire loading. You're right on what is happening. We couldn't do it like we wanted with what was available. Tire load is downforce dependent more than anything else. FM7 might be different, I haven't watched the parameters when driving, but I'll check it out.

Talking between friends, I pointed out how the marketing focus on the Forza mainline games hasn't been about sim but more about graphics, weather, number of cars for a few games now. Back around Forza 3-4 timeframe, it was all about getting some racers and sim guys trying to validate the game.

I find the weather implementation in games to be poor anyhow and seems very much a simple concept of reduced grip % but people go nuts over it...so what can you do. I personally turn it off where possible.

You're spot on with your assessment of when things changed. Internally, FM4 is the holy grail among the car guys in the studio. Things changed after that....

Yeah the weather is kinda gimmicky IMO, at least the physics part of it. You're not far off how the grip algorithm is ran, unless it was significantly changed in FM7 but in driving it doesn't feel much different. The graphics look nice enough I suppose, which was the priority. The realism of the clouds and how the clouds move and are on a random cycle instead of repeating loop of same formations was the talking point in so many of the monthly meetings. Yes it looks great, but really who looks at the sky when racing, this isn't stop and smell the roses.. My opinion didn't matter

I also wish they'd budget more dev hours for rebuilding the AI....

In the end, the guys running the show are nice guys, genuine car guys at the core, but somewhere along the line it seems the enthusiasm for the cars has changed into enthusiasm for money.

We did have some NASCAR guys come in to play the game when the NASCAR expansion came out for FM6 and they all loved it, but NASCAR isn't the reason most people play the game...

I've never driven the ring IRL. Driving tracks on games vs driving them in real life is never quite the same. Very hard to compare.. The tracks I have been on and drive in game always look very close visually, but not quite there with the feel of the car on the track and where you place it; it's almost as if the cars are too narrow for the track in the driving feel, but it looks close visually.

Some interesting comments there...

 

[Stang616]

I'm seriously starting to wonder why T10/Playground even put this car in the Hot Wheels expansion of FH3 if it was going to have this many problems.

It's listed correctly in the Forzathon challenge, which adds more mystery.

 

[Nacho Libre]

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r/1028128-is-forza-7-gt2rs-accurate-ring-times.html















Some interesting comments there...

Very interesting comments indeed. The video game business has always been a "make believe" industry. Call of Duty game will make you "believe" you are a soldier, GTA games will make you "believe" you are a felon, and so on. Forza makes me "believe" that I can afford a high priced sport cars and that I can drive it competently around a rainy race track in Europe and I'm perfectly happy with that, just as I'm perfectly happy jumping and sliding all over virtual Australia.
As for "In the end, the guys running the show are nice guys, genuine car guys at the core, but somewhere along the line it seems the enthusiasm for the cars has changed into enthusiasm for money." and "Traded simulation and catering to enthusiasts to a mass audience and piles of money." well, that's why he isn't management as ALL serious businesses are about money.
In the end I believe Turn 10 delivers a product that is an incredible balancing act, all things considered, and with which I'm very happy.

 

[PJTierney]

https://www.kudosprime.com/f7/stats.php?preset=playersnb

I like looking at @Milouse's player number stats occasionally. Looks like Forza Motorsport 6 had almost 400,000 more players at this point in its lifetime compared to Forza Motorsport 7.

@Milouse something that would be nice to see is the addition of Forza Horizon 3 to this page, as the numbers for that are quite impressive compared to recent Motorsport titles:

 

[Silver Arrows]

I mean, that isn't hard to see that player numbers would drop off from 6 to 7. 7 is really a herky jerky sort of experience in many ways, as I have railed about on here, and by this point, T10's poorer then usual quality control and quality of life in game is starting to effect people's desire to play the game, and opinions.

Though I do find it somewhat unfair to compare Horizon 3 to the Motorsport games in terms of playerbase numbers.

 

[Northstar]

Forza 6 was also heavily bundled which may have some effect (that’s how I got it). Granted I would say that it certainly feels more complete than FM7 so that probably has a bigger impact.

At the end of the day I don’t spend much time in multiplayer so the numbers don’t mean much to me.

 

[Nielsen]

How can FM7 not have more players than FM6 after extending its reach to Windows with the full version of FM7?

 

[Northstar]

How can FM7 not have more players than FM6 after extending its reach to Windows with the full version of FM7?

I’m guessing the unfavorable initial reviews (lack of new content, VIP being horrible etc...) and concerns over micro transactions scared quite a few people off.

 

[Populuxe]

I’m guessing the unfavorable initial reviews (lack of new content, VIP being horrible etc...) and concerns over micro transactions scared quite a few people off.

There's a lot more competition now, too. GTS for the PS4, PCars2, even niche driving games like Spintires can make a dent in FM7 sales.

 

[Silver Arrows]

There's a lot more competition now, too. GTS for the PS4, PCars2, even niche driving games like Spintires can make a dent in FM7 sales.

This is probably the factor that contributes the most, alongside Forza 7 being a very half baked game. No longer is it just Forza and GT anymore. Assetto and PCARS on Xbox alone are stealing market share.

 

[Nacho Libre]

I think its the general gaming trends, just look at the current sales leaders. Anticipation for GTS may have caused some to switch consoles (but at this point, I bet the migration trend in that regard is the other way around), and yes, the initial VIP implementation (compounded by the crate concerns) was a huge mistake, it lead to a lot of pre-order cancellations and refunds after lunch (The negativity on the official forums those days, wow...)
I respectfully disagree that Forza 7 is a half-baked game, but maybe its strengths (fun factor, playability, content, campaign, free play) are better suited for the type of player that I am.

 

[Milouse]

@Milouse something that would be nice to see is the addition of Forza Horizon 3 to this page, as the numbers for that are quite impressive compared to recent Motorsport titles:

Sorry, reading this i realized that i don't even answered to this request made on Forza official forum, despite my intention to. I'll do it (adding FH3 line on same graph).

 

[ImaRobot]

it lead to a lot of pre-order cancellations and refunds after lunch

You're damn right. I gave it a second thought over dinner and decided to jump in, though.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I’m guessing the unfavorable initial reviews (lack of new content, VIP being horrible etc...) and concerns over micro transactions scared quite a few people off.

The lack of new content thing is one I'd expand on further. Even the car/track lists — comparably, they weren't offering as much of a jump as FM6 did for FM5. There, it was 464 cars versus 201 (over double). The track list is a similar situation.

Plus, as Motorsport is the only franchise to have three titles out on this generation, it suffers more from a "same old same old" feeling than titles like GT Sport (first game on PS4) or PCARS2 (second title in franchise) did. It's a huge, huge game for the price (even with the Ultimate Edition), but I can understand why people would stick with FM6 if they already had it. Especially because I don't believe many FM players are hardcore sim racers (or at least if they are, they play other titles too), so the weather updates in FM7 probably aren't enough to get people to pull the trigger.

It's unfortunate about the MTs, though; they weren't in the game at launch and still aren't. Though, if you read some of the less educated posts on our FB page, you'd think otherwise. People latch onto them when, currently, the prize crates in game do nothing more than lock some extraneous outfits away, and complicate the credit-earning portion of the game. The meat of the game — the cars and tracks — are not locked behind the lootbox system. It's fundamentally different from what other games do in that regard.

The return of unicorns to such a huge degree is a contentious item, I won't argue that. I do miss the days of old GT and Forza, where a car was only unlocked via completing a racing series, and FM7 does that — but there's so many cars that are inaccessible without doing community events. I see the reasoning; the goal is to encourage people to interact more. But people want to play games on their basis, but for those wanting to customize the 1/10 of the lineup that's locked away, they're stuck waiting on an unknown schedule that T10 has. I can't shake the feeling it pushes more people away than it lures in.

There's so many other ways I'd approach that portion of the game. Insist on keeping them locked? Okay, but make them timed exclusives, so after the community events, anybody who missed it — or bought FM7 late — can get 'em. Unlock 'em all, but maybe have exclusive liveries for those that achieve Bounty Hunter goals or things like that. Or hell, flat-out copy old GT now that Sport has gone off into esport land, and introduce a used car dealership, with rare finds that pop up based on an offline, not online, cycle. You've got the best car lineup in the genre!

 

[Milouse]

Sorry, reading this i realized that i don't even answered to this request made on Forza official forum, despite my intention to. I'll do it (adding FH3 line on same graph).

Done.

 

[-Fred-]

If you exclude the VIP fiasco, the botched Forzathons and Specialty Dealer updates, the "it's locked and we still don't know when/how to get it" car content and the general lack of "new" content, deep down inside when it comes to the basics of driving a car on a racetrack and nothing else (which is what a racing/driving game is all about anyway), it's potentially the best Forza experience in a long time. I can deal with the slow-ish menus and the livery bugs because nobody else does "Blasting down Mulsanne in an XJR-9 at dawn" quite the same way.

 

[SPhilli911]

If you exclude the VIP fiasco, the botched Forzathons and Specialty Dealer updates, the "it's locked and we still don't know when/how to get it" car content and the general lack of "new" content, deep down inside when it comes to the basics of driving a car on a racetrack and nothing else (which is what a racing/driving game is all about anyway), it's potentially the best Forza experience in a long time. I can deal with the slow-ish menus and the livery bugs because nobody else does "Blasting down Mulsanne in an XJR-9 at dawn" quite the same way.

Exactly. I find that coming round a corner in my Sauber C9 on the Nurburgring and seeing the sometimes gorgeous lighting I think... you know what, those glitches don't matter so much. Once you get racing, that's where the game shines, even though it's sometimes hard to overlook the weird decisions Turn 10 made and the frequent glitches.

 

[Drex124]

Done.

Question, are those numbers just counting Xbox users or does it include PC and XoneX users?

 

[Milouse]

Question, are those numbers just counting Xbox users or does it include PC and XoneX users?

Both.

 

[PJTierney]

Sorry, reading this i realized that i don't even answered to this request made on Forza official forum, despite my intention to. I'll do it (adding FH3 line on same graph).

No worries, all in your own time. Big fan of the work you’ve done over the years

Speaking of, you you have a Rims/Wheels list for this game, sorted by weight/category? I remember you having one for Forza Motorsport 4.

 

[Milouse]

Speaking of, you you have a Rims/Wheels list for this game, sorted by weight/category? I remember you having one for Forza Motorsport 4.

No, the closest one is the Forza 6 rims database. The page wasn't very popular (as it used to in older Forza where painted rims couldn't be previewed in the game), so i didn't spend time doing in on Forza 7.

 

[Nielsen]

Several good points brought to the table, but I always had this idea that PC sales would easily make up for console players fatigued after years of roughly the same old Forza Motorsport formula. Meanwhile, many PC players within Forza's target group have probably already satisfied their worst virtual car collecting cravings with FH3.

On the one hand, I'm fine with the fact that sales aren't overly great when FM7 turned out to have such a troubled launch, not to mention its relatively underwhelming post-release support. Turn 10 needs a wake up call. True that FM7 for the most part provides near flawless gameplay, and it can be argued that most issues have been reduced to mere annoyances by now. Then again, FH3 feels like a small masterpiece in comparison, which must haunt the Forza veterans at Turn 10. On the other hand, we all want the car and track lists to keep growing, so annual sales may have to stay strong in order to pay the unprecedented licensing bills.

 

[BlazeTheCat05]

As the weeks and months go by, my hope for a rally expansion dwindles. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[05XR8]

Just bought the game.... pretty much, only for the '65 Mini. Can't get one in any other of the new console "sims".

 

[Marqus]

Finally decided to boot up FM7 for the first time in weeks to try out the new cars. I thought the the Chiron would be a handful, a heavy mess that's only good for the straights like the Veyron. I was pleasantly surprised how behaved it is in the corners when homoligated. And it's just as fast around my testing track as most others cars in it's division. And Oh God, the noise it makes!

I may sound like a filthy casual for saying this, but the ease at which I can churn out quick and consistent times, combined with the look and sound of it, the Chiron is easily my favorite car this pack.

 

[ClydeYellow]

Question: did the Drivatars get a touch up after the latest update? They seem to race a lot cleaner on Rio, and on actual racetracks they've become impressively diligent at avoiding collisions and playing nice. Or maybe it's just me being too hopeful and seeing things...

 

[Nacho Libre]

Question: did the Drivatars get a touch up after the latest update? They seem to race a lot cleaner on Rio, and on actual racetracks they've become impressively diligent at avoiding collisions and playing nice. Or maybe it's just me being too hopeful and seeing things...

I've found that the cleaner you drive, the cleaner they behave (sort of). Crash or bump one or two and they will be all over you. Also I drive with limit aggression OFF, it has been suggested that it is reversed.

 

[ClydeYellow]

I've found that the cleaner you drive, the cleaner they behave (sort of). Crash or bump one or two and they will be all over you. Also I drive with limit aggression OFF, it has been suggested that it is reversed.

The fact that Drivatars seem to respond to the player's level of aggression is true, but I did a race on Rio full with a full grid of Touring Cars before the patch came out, and cars seemed to brake or crash at point where it made no sense; wherein after a hiatus I tried the same race again today and the AI was keeping a proper raceline and driving quite smoothly.

Also, I haven't encountered yet the old glitch by which Drivatars abandoned their line and went back to a default one (thus, often, wiping you out) if you used the Rewind function.