Gran Turismo 6 coming to PS3

[Earth]

On the two year cycle, there is one crucial difference between SONY and Microsoft. Microsoft is insanely rich. Rich enough to make Bill Gates the wealthiest man on the planet for a time. MS funds Turn 10 to an undisclosed amount, and then furthermore, contracts out work to a number of clients, which for Forza 4 included a Hollywood production firm to help develop a new graphic engine for them, and most likely for a hefty fee. We know that back in 2009, SONY had spent as much as $80 million on GT5, but Forza 4, hardly a clue. I saw mention of a possible price tag of $120 million or more at one or two gaming news sites, but those pages vanished the same day.

When you have four or five software houses modeling content, you can achieve a two year lifecycle for your game much more easily. Of course, Forza is also notorious for those models having issues, such as when you want to paint a car and some of the surfaces don't properly support the graphics you made. But sure, if SONY would just dump tens of millions more into the coffers, Gran Turismo could be much bigger, or arrive sooner. But SONY can't afford to give Kaz a blank check like that.

At their current budget they can still model 100+ cars every 2 years, which would be enough of an upgrade for me.

And what about all the rumors that "our hats will fall off" when we see all the tracks in GT6? Did we really need to wait 3-4 years to see the track count jump from 20 to 40 or 50? I would have been just fine with the track count going from 20 to around 30 after 2 years.

And I would have no problem at all paying $60 for it, I wouldnt feel cheated at all. Why hold a game back for 3-4 years, which raises expectations to nearly impossible to reach levels? Many people dont realize how awful the Madden games are because they get a new shiny one every year which always claims to be the best yet but is anything but.

I just hope the long wait between GT5 and GT6 is due to Sony asking PD to move the game to the PS4. Its not like all this time they're working on A-Spec and B-Spec career mode events and features. GT5 's Aspec mode and features looked and felt like something somebody threw together haphazardly in a week. They're spending all this time modeling more and more cars and more and more tracks. The whole 1000 cars 800 of them being standard debacle of GT5 shows they care more about quantity then quality.

GT3 is still the biggest selling and best rated GT game. Its also one of the smallest GT games. Why cant they understand people care more about quality then quantity? If GT6 launched with 1000 premium cars but with a crappy A-Spec career mode like GT5 it wouldnt matter. We wouldnt have many interesting events to race those 1000 cars in, the AI would still be crippled, no qualifying, short races, forced grinding by an awful progression system...it would be a disaster again.

I really fear PD has not learned any lessons at all. Ok sure Kaz admitted there needs to be more events, but it wont matter if they're all 5 minute races again with no qualifying or practice and noobs for AI.

 

[Tenacious D]

Memo to Earth: I hear you.

And if I hear you, I'm pretty sure Kazunori does. As eran0004 posted above, they do have a few people either there in PD or from SONY who keep tabs on the net chatter about their games and systems, probably more so than they do the developers. And remember, the developers practically got the system of their dreams.

Kaz has mentioned a number of times that he makes the games he wants, but with us in mind. Some aspects of GT5, everyone loves. But that crazy experiment of theirs has irked a few million fans around the world. Some things were a cute attempt that missed the mark, or went wildly off course. Everything from the collectible horns, racing suits and helmets, the Museum Cards - that can't be deleted and is flooding our folder?! - the paint chips and XP system... a lot of things in GT5 were kind of neat or meh, and some things were on the level of "what the hell were they thinking!"

SONY and Kaz both take this stuff much more seriously than we think out here in the land of us peon gamers. To SONY, it means they have to change "I may not get GT6 for a while/at all" gamers to "I can hardly wait for it!" pre-orderers. This is money they need badly, not to mention prestige. To Kaz... well, he takes criticism of his games personally. I can sympathize. When I write fiction or music, the least little criticism can make me cringe. He wants everyone to love the latest Gran Turismo. The net is awash with criticism of GT5 at all levels, and all levels could use some work. And a lot of the criticism here is usually mingled with some kind of suggestion or solution. Many people mention fondly the previous games, and why they were such excellent games.

This is a simple premise to work with. Many good things were welcomed in GT5. We appreciated the extra unexpected goodies like the kart racing, the Course Maker, the return of - unfortunately a rather skimpy - Race Mod, and it's almost non-existent Livery Painter. The online system was a little rough but it was there, and it worked okay for what we got.

Now we do have a very few clues to work from, but the one big one I'm running with is Lucas Ordonez remarks about the track count. Since race environs take so forever long to make, especially from scratch and in Premium form, to me, this says that they're unloading all their assets from the previous games into the workstations of their modeling department, along with new courses like Bathurst and potential candidates like Hockenheim and Dubai. Tracks require events in order to justify their existence. So with them, I'm anticipating a LOT of events like we had in GT4. This was a game you couldn't complete in a couple weeks. I played it for about 15 months straight, and still hadn't done a couple dozen events. People mention returning to GT4 because there are SO many events to do. I'm definitely with you on not just how few A-Spec events there are, but how little thought seems to have been put into them. Some events don't even have tracks which match the motif, of say European style events with tracks from America, or something like that. Choices that don't make sense, especially considering that there are obviously more appropriate tracks they could have used. This criticism is about as widespread as the grouching over the Standard cars. I expect GT6 to come loaded to bear, and make quite an impression on us, not just look prettier.

Now I will have to say that I can't see Kaz producing new Gran Turismos any sooner than three years, and more like four. It's possible that Polyphony Digital could grow in size to match Guerrilla Games, which I believe is a little over 200 developer staff, but I'm doubtful. Kaz is picky, plus it's hard to find people who are loyal and keep secrets. This is something crucial to both Kaz and SONY, so we'll have to see on that. But I'm expecting the usual long wait for GT7, three years or more.

Now, about which console it'll be on. If it's on PS3, I won't be surprised, though I will be disappointed. It will be a bigger game, and look better. It will more importantly be a much better game without the silly weird things in GT5. I think the only Standard content will be tracks, unless the modeling and art teams worked overtime to bring the Standard cars closer to Premium level. It will likely have a ton of things to do, way more A-Spec events being just the start. Online should be what we expected in GT5, something in line with what the typical PC shooter offers, and with the beefier online structure for the new Playstation, it should offer mostly lag free racing, and large fields. It might have weather and time of day transition on all tracks, might have the Livery Editor, Race Mod on all or most of the cars. More Photo Mode locations, etc. It will be worth $60.

If it does come out on PS3, the true GT5 sequel will be on PS4. It may come out a year or two later, or they could surprise us and release it at the same time, which to me would be a strange marketing decision, but these are humans making it so who knows. In any case, the real GT6 will be gorgeous, running at true 1080p at 60fps or better, even in 3D. Physics and tire modeling will reach PC sim levels. Particle effects and shadows will be impeccable, and night lighting effects will be amazing, with realistic beam effects. It will have at least 24 cars on track, maybe 32 or more. It will have weather and time of day transition on all tracks, and the consequences of rain will be more realistic. The Livery Editor will be magnificent, and Race Mod will be for most cars, if not all of them. Damage will finally arrive for real, and bot A.I. will be better, as will sound. The Movie Maker will become at least as popular as Photo Mode, which will also be enhanced. We'll have options out the wazoo for online racing and the Event Maker will let us create online and offline races to our heart's content, plus PD will come up with lots of Special Events online. I could go on and on all night about what I expect on the PS4 version that will be impossible on PS3. Yes, some of that is possible on PS3, but not as much as you might think.

There is one huge matter which has a bearing on this, and I've been forgetting to mention it. If Forza 5 is on the NeXBox, this will be a one-up on SONY that they won't be able to live down. And I expect it will be, so keep this in mind when you speculate about which system GT6 will be released for.

Make no mistake though, whatever PD creates will be good enough. If it's on PS3, I'll be there on day one. I'll enjoy it and its enhancements while I wait for that much better PS4 experience.

 

[jimipitbull]

They will release GT6 on PS3 approx. 1 month before Project Cars.

Pencil in October.

 

[Bounkazz]

They will release GT6 on PS3 approx. 1 month before Project Cars.

Pencil in October.

I lold' hard.

 

[stiggygonzalez]

well said indeed sinbad - though stiggy, i think shakespeare would have written it more like this:

this creation of such esteemed entertainment is worthy of the time taken, as any fool knows. So cans't any free man glean the meaning of those prettified words, spoken in this way.

It is not my meaning, nor is there true clarity to gainsay that an age will endure before this heart's desire is come to us. Forsooth: What has passed before, is now past. This new way is as fresh as a spring morn, ripe with hope and expectations.

probably get ripped apart for that - but it's all in the name of of fun

:d

 

[mcfizzle]

http://www.superpolypixel.com/rumor-upcoming-playstation-3-releases/

Rumored GameStop 2013 PS3 games release date list. GT6 is not on the list while a few other unannounced games are on there. Note that quite a few games have place holder dates of 6/30/2013 and 12/31/2013. I'm not taking this as evidence either way but figured I would post it.

 

[maxpontiac]

There is one huge matter which has a bearing on this, and I've been forgetting to mention it. If Forza 5 is on the NeXBox, this will be a one-up on SONY that they won't be able to live down. And I expect it will be, so keep this in mind when you speculate about which system GT6 will be released for.

I am sorry TD, but I am not buying this. I don't see some vast amount of Gran Turismo players about ready to jump ship to some competitor and never play Gran Turismo again. IF and I mean IF Forza was on the Playstation your concern would have merit. Sure, there will be a few here and there, but I honestly believe it will be hardly noticeable.

To many people forget about just how good GT5 has done since it's release. At its current pace, GT5 will outsell GT1 and GT2 and has a strong chance of eventually catching GT4. I don't see GT3 being caught by any racing game ever, but that's another topic all in itself.

The world went into a panic about how GT4 not having online gaming and damage systems in place and many predicted it's failure. Nearly 10 million copies later with it's latest edition here we are on the verge of GT6. No matter which Sony system it's on people will line up in droves to buy it all the while people here continue to come up with one myriad reason or another why GT will be losing sales.

It won't matter where GT6 goes, and yes, you can quote me on that.

 

[Tenacious D]

I am sorry TD, but I am not buying this. I don't see some vast amount of Gran Turismo players about ready to jump ship to some competitor and never play Gran Turismo again. IF and I mean IF Forza was on the Playstation your concern would have merit.

Actually, that's not my point, and this should make things clear.

There is a pretty bitter rivalry between SONY and Microsoft. MS is the brash American company that gets in your face about almost everything, even if they feign politeness about it. They make digs at competitors routinely.

SONY has a Japanese subtle arrogance about them, and any remarks about competitors are made almost in passing. They prefer to focus on why they're good and you should want their system and games.

But make no mistake, this is bitter head to head politics between them. War. However you want to frame it, and MS has never felt reluctant to smash competition in warlike fashion, even to illegal levels such as with Netscape. SONY doesn't like their attitude and takes it personally. And I sincerely doubt that anything matches the vexation they and Kazunori both feel about MS basically copying the entire Gran Turismo concept, their marquee franchise, lugnuts and all. Kaz is ridiculously polite, but this situation has turned him into a hermit making cryptic remarks to journalists since Forza 1 hit the market. And as a few of us pointed out, he really had to.

Anyway, this is the situation SONY and Kazunori are in. It's a matter of prestige and pride with them. And hey, I'd be on the same page with Kaz on this one. I'm sure when he was working with SONY engineers on development of PS4, he was drooling in anticipation, and ran with those preliminary specs to the team. And you have to know that the last thing they or SONY want to hear is for those other guys to come to E3 with a line like this:

"While some companies are reluctant to work with new technologies and play a safe game for the sake of a captive market, WE are here today to show you what the real racing simulator of tomorrow looks like."

The ONLY way I can see this scenario playing out is for a TGS announcement of the forthcoming GT6 on PS4. And I have to admit, that would be a pretty sweet surprise, and a nice parry.

 

[Samus]

I didn't realise you worked for Sony and PD and therefore know what they really think about things.

 

[maxpontiac]

Actually, that's not my point, and this should make things clear.

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but you seemed concerned for GT's future.

There is a pretty bitter rivalry between SONY and Microsoft.

Yes, I can see that, but until Gran Turismo actually loses a substantial amount of players, I don't see Forza as some huge problem. Afterall, Forza does a lot right and in fact serves as a push to GT as a series.

Plus, Kaz and PDI have to be thrilled that even with GT5's issues, people are still playing and purchasing it. I personally can't wait to see PDI's updated numbers.

I'm sure when he was working with SONY engineers on development of PS4, he was drooling in anticipation, and ran with those preliminary specs to the team.

Agreed. I am sure the 8GB of RAM caused quite the party.

The ONLY way I can see this scenario playing out is for a TGS announcement of the forthcoming GT6 on PS4.

We are back to square one TD. I agree 100% with you when it comes to the impact GT6 on the PS4 could have. Really I am.

But... (yes, but) why shouldn't Sony capitalize on the PS3 and the PS4? Using your logic, the best way to hit Microsoft would be to attack both platforms, would it not? I can easily see GT6 on the PS3 and the PS4 reaching 4-5 million copies sold each. That would take plenty of cash from MS, correct?

 

[Earth]

Now we do have a very few clues to work from, but the one big one I'm running with is Lucas Ordonez remarks about the track count. Since race environs take so forever long to make, especially from scratch and in Premium form, to me, this says that they're unloading all their assets from the previous games into the workstations of their modeling department, along with new courses like Bathurst and potential candidates like Hockenheim and Dubai. Tracks require events in order to justify their existence. So with them, I'm anticipating a LOT of events like we had in GT4. This was a game you couldn't complete in a couple weeks. I played it for about 15 months straight, and still hadn't done a couple dozen events. People mention returning to GT4 because there are SO many events to do. I'm definitely with you on not just how few A-Spec events there are, but how little thought seems to have been put into them. Some events don't even have tracks which match the motif, of say European style events with tracks from America, or something like that. Choices that don't make sense, especially considering that there are obviously more appropriate tracks they could have used. This criticism is about as widespread as the grouching over the Standard cars. I expect GT6 to come loaded to bear, and make quite an impression on us, not just look prettier.

Around 200 events like GT4 would be ideal, but just simply more events wont be enough, especially if they are executed the same. GT4's events were plagued by the now infamous "rabbit" cars. They lacked qualifying. And still most were short enough where you did not need to pit.

As good as Final Fantasy VII's battle system was at its release in 1997, if you put the same system in a RPG today it wouldnt be good enough. The same with Gran Turismo. If you simply doubled GT5's events to around 200 that will not be good enough. We expect much more. And what we want isnt asking to reinvent the wheel. We want a real race weekend. Not an arcade style jump in and start mid-pack race. We want a full blown race weekend, with practice and qualifying sessions, or a single practice session where your best time and the AI's best time counts as the qualifying time.

Beyond basic and expected improvements to AI and crash physics/damage, we expect well thought out AI opponents for each race. Nonsense like a Jaguar XJR-9 racing GT cars with a 1969 Ford GT bringing up the rear should never, ever happen. And there is the issues with race length. Why were the Formula GT events the only races with any substantial length in GT5? The average NASCAR race is almost 4 hours long, over twice as long as the average Formula 1 race, yet the NASCAR championship has 10 minute long races and the Formula GT has races over an hour long? And I dont buy the argument that they think casual players dont have the time. Afterall they expect the casuals to race the super long endurance races, some of which are as long as 24 hours. Im not expecting 4 hour long NASCAR races. I just want races later in A-Spec mode to require one or two pit stops

I want to believe that they care what the fans think. But recently I watched a Mark Cerny presentation about game development. His advice to developers was not to listen to fans. He said all they will suggest is making your game just like another popular game of the same genre. Im not suggesting that at all, Im simply suggesting they make Gran Turismo more like real racing, by giving us a real race weekend with proper opponents etc.

Now I will have to say that I can't see Kaz producing new Gran Turismos any sooner than three years, and more like four. It's possible that Polyphony Digital could grow in size to match Guerrilla Games, which I believe is a little over 200 developer staff, but I'm doubtful. Kaz is picky, plus it's hard to find people who are loyal and keep secrets. This is something crucial to both Kaz and SONY, so we'll have to see on that. But I'm expecting the usual long wait for GT7, three years or more.

A 3 to 4 year wait wouldnt be so bad if GT5 was in the least bit future proof. To keep the game from stalling and crashing they've spammed us with these ridiculous "seasonal" events which highlight almost everything that is wrong with GT5's A-Spec mode. Again I'll bring up the Madden reference. The games have been awful for almost a decade now, yet because they're released yearly people dont notice it that much. Alot is riding on GT6. I doubt many will be willing to wait another 3-4 years for PD to fix another mistake.

Now, about which console it'll be on. If it's on PS3, I won't be surprised, though I will be disappointed. It will be a bigger game, and look better. It will more importantly be a much better game without the silly weird things in GT5. I think the only Standard content will be tracks, unless the modeling and art teams worked overtime to bring the Standard cars closer to Premium level. It will likely have a ton of things to do, way more A-Spec events being just the start. Online should be what we expected in GT5, something in line with what the typical PC shooter offers, and with the beefier online structure for the new Playstation, it should offer mostly lag free racing, and large fields. It might have weather and time of day transition on all tracks, might have the Livery Editor, Race Mod on all or most of the cars. More Photo Mode locations, etc. It will be worth $60.

Im not so sure about lag free racing. 16 cars online in GT5 is hit and miss when it comes to lag. International racing can be really bad. If GT6 goes to 24 or 32 cars, I fear they may limit online to 16 cars for lag concerns.

We need dedicated, high speed servers, not peer to peer. I would happily pay $80 for the game at launch for guaranteed dedicated servers. If that isnt feasible, I would like the option to "rent" a server for a yearly fee that I can host personal races on, or even leave up when Im not online for others to race in the event with the rules Ive selected.

If it does come out on PS3, the true GT5 sequel will be on PS4. It may come out a year or two later, or they could surprise us and release it at the same time, which to me would be a strange marketing decision, but these are humans making it so who knows. In any case, the real GT6 will be gorgeous, running at true 1080p at 60fps or better, even in 3D. Physics and tire modeling will reach PC sim levels. Particle effects and shadows will be impeccable, and night lighting effects will be amazing, with realistic beam effects. It will have at least 24 cars on track, maybe 32 or more. It will have weather and time of day transition on all tracks, and the consequences of rain will be more realistic. The Livery Editor will be magnificent, and Race Mod will be for most cars, if not all of them. Damage will finally arrive for real, and bot A.I. will be better, as will sound. The Movie Maker will become at least as popular as Photo Mode, which will also be enhanced. We'll have options out the wazoo for online racing and the Event Maker will let us create online and offline races to our heart's content, plus PD will come up with lots of Special Events online. I could go on and on all night about what I expect on the PS4 version that will be impossible on PS3. Yes, some of that is possible on PS3, but not as much as you might think.

Im sure those of us who started with GT way back in 1998 thought the game looked photo realistic. And then with GT3, wow, Gran Turismo has finally gotten to the point where it looks photo realistic. I remember watching previews of races for a couple of hours before even driving myself, it looked so good.

And then GT5. Finally, Gran Turismo looks photo realistic.

See a trend? With GT6 on PS4 we have an opportunity to see the next step in photo realistic racing game graphics. While GT6 on PS3 graphics will no doubt improve over GT5, the gain will be minimal when compared to what is possible with GT6 On PS4. I've said it before and will say it again, Im quite confident that when people see GT6 running on PS4 hardware they will quickly forget about GT6 on PS3. If PD can guarantee a 2014 release date, preferably Q2 or Q3, it will be well worth the wait IMO.

And of course beyond graphics there is the movie maker functionality, youtube upload, face tracking, live streaming or viewing of gameplay, possible driver swaps through streaming, instant sharing of GT6 video clips between users on the PSN, downloading updates in the background while continuing to race, suspending the game and continuing where you left off almost instantly with the press of a button. These are just a few of the numerous advantages available on the PS4.

There is one huge matter which has a bearing on this, and I've been forgetting to mention it. If Forza 5 is on the NeXBox, this will be a one-up on SONY that they won't be able to live down. And I expect it will be, so keep this in mind when you speculate about which system GT6 will be released for.

Its likely Microsoft will reveal their console before E3. What if they show Forza on the NextBox? What if theys how 32 AUto Vista quality cars racing around the Nurburgring at night, with all headlights working, and in the middle of a rainstorm? That sure puts Sony and PD into a corner.

 

[Exorcet]

And I dont buy the argument that they think casual players dont have the time. Afterall they expect the casuals to race the super long endurance races, some of which are as long as 24 hours.

Maybe they didn't. No one has to complete the whole game.

In my opinion though, we actually do need to reinvent the wheel. Throw away games that are locked into being played a certain way. Let the players play according to their preferences. Everyone wins then.

GT is notoriously bad at this. Options simply have never existed for GT Mode. You have to do it, and you have to do it PD's way. It's a terrible way of doing things.

 

[daus26]

Its likely Microsoft will reveal their console before E3. What if they show Forza on the NextBox? What if theys how 32 AUto Vista quality cars racing around the Nurburgring at night, with all headlights working, and in the middle of a rainstorm? That sure puts Sony and PD into a corner.

Yeah, it would certainly work in favor of Forza Motorsports if that's the case. Even if GT6 is made for the PS4 though, we probably won't see it for awhile, due to DriveClub. That puts Forza in limelight for quiet a bit (assuming it's a launch title) as the standard setter for next gen simulator, racing game. PD would then have to show something really amazing with their PS4 Gran Turismo (not only graphically, but features) to top off FM's initial excitement for the next generation, or else it's just going to be stale reveal (seen that, done that).

Yes they're both for different systems, but Microsoft would be smart to impress GT fans with their next gen FM early as it may pull in some nextbox systems while GT fans wait for their PS4 GT, for who knows how long. This time, they may actuallly have some merit if they say FM5 is the best looking racing game to date, unless Sony's DriveClub tops it.

 

[Ills1999]

But... (yes, but) why shouldn't Sony capitalize on the PS3 and the PS4?

Because people who are hungry for a new GT may choose to not purchase a PS4 in order to get their fix if it's simu-released on the machine they already own.

 

[jimipitbull]

Microsoft would need to support logitech wheels if it wanted to impress the majority of GT fans.

Unless they made the nextbox compatible with PC games. That would certainly impress me.

 

[machschnel]

Actually, that's not my point, and this should make things clear.

There is a pretty bitter rivalry between SONY and Microsoft. MS is the brash American company that gets in your face about almost everything, even if they feign politeness about it. They make digs at competitors routinely.

SONY has a Japanese subtle arrogance about them, and any remarks about competitors are made almost in passing. They prefer to focus on why they're good and you should want their system and games.

But make no mistake, this is bitter head to head politics between them. War. However you want to frame it, and MS has never felt reluctant to smash competition in warlike fashion, even to illegal levels such as with Netscape. SONY doesn't like their attitude and takes it personally. And I sincerely doubt that anything matches the vexation they and Kazunori both feel about MS basically copying the entire Gran Turismo concept, their marquee franchise, lugnuts and all. Kaz is ridiculously polite, but this situation has turned him into a hermit making cryptic remarks to journalists since Forza 1 hit the market. And as a few of us pointed out, he really had to.

You're a special kind of sycophant aren't you Tenacious? You put tremendous effort into your grovelling, I'll give you that.

 

[Tenacious D]

We are back to square one TD. I agree 100% with you when it comes to the impact GT6 on the PS4 could have. Really I am.

But... (yes, but) why shouldn't Sony capitalize on the PS3 and the PS4? Using your logic, the best way to hit Microsoft would be to attack both platforms, would it not? I can easily see GT6 on the PS3 and the PS4 reaching 4-5 million copies sold each. That would take plenty of cash from MS, correct?

On this point, I have to plead ignorance because the marketing team of major corporations sometimes baffle me. I will have to say though that what I understand of such matters, having dual system releases only works for non-flagship games. It may be different in the case of GT6, and on that, we'll just have to see. Just to repeat in case the class in general hasn't caught this, I'll say that if GT6 is released on PS3, it won't suck. It will be a good game, an improved game. Most of us will love it. But there will be a lot of grousing from fans wanting a sequel released on a system without the constraints of seven-plus year old hardware. I can imagine that some journalists won't be kind, especially if as Earth pointed out rather dramatically, Forza 5 is out on the NeXBox and can accomplish a bunch if not all of what he suggests. That will be a seriously bad day for SONY.

In my opinion though, we actually do need to reinvent the wheel. Throw away games that are locked into being played a certain way. Let the players play according to their preferences. Everyone wins then.

GT is notoriously bad at this. Options simply have never existed for GT Mode.

On this, I'm not too sure. GT4 had so many events to do, I recall that I had a few ways I could go even early on in GT Mode. I made it a point to get the truck races out of the way for instance, as I'm just not a big vehicle fan.

Gran Turismo is never set up like a hockey game, with a definite season mode in which you basically take your games as they come up on the calendar, and the only out you have from that is to play a single quick game apart from all that. GT5 did have that annoying XP system which added an unnecessary hurdle to both racing cars and certain events. I hate that more than anything else in the game, and that did put a glass ceiling over you in the game, forcing you to do races over and over to get the XP up to where you could not just open up events, but cars for those events. But even within the structure of GT5 GT Mode, you had a few options, just fewer than usual because the A-Spec and B-Spec sections were so small and poorly structured.

Now, a bunch of us are asking for options, such as within that definite structure of the real life racing world. Many of us want to see a bunch of GT Mode events arranged sort of like in GT3, long series of races but in a league-like format, something down the food chain of events. Some of us want to see the return of Manufacturing Cup races. Some of us want a Season Mode which is rather like a racing season in a league such as DTM, WRC, BTCC and so on, with a calendar, competitors and points to determine your standing like in the real world. And I could go on. I don't know how much of that we'll see, but I suspect that PD is going to be working on making GT6 a satisfying experience. How many of us it will make happy, we'll just have to see when it ships.

(I don't want to quote the whole thing, just go read it, it's solid gold)

You won't get any arguments from me on your post. I will touch on a few things.

As you and Exorcet stated, the team needs to rethink what racing is all about in GT6, and how the offline game feels. There are still rabbit cars in GT5. They still brake by slamming on them full force. Not only were A-Spec and B-Spec events puny, but way too random and felt slapped together. Online structure wasn't what we hoped, and yes, Seasonal Events were thrown at us haphazardly to fill in the gaps. GT5 was too small and too unfinished feeling. I spend most of my time racing in Arcade Mode to get my racing fix, using it like a baby Event Generator to create races for me, because online is just too much of a crap shoot and waste of time.

I agree with Mark Cerny to an extent. Don't listen to the fans as far as wishlists, but do take proper, actual criticism to heart. Make the game you want, but make sure your vision causes a darn good game to come out of the process. Polyphony Digital knows how to make a good racer. And Kaz has accumulated some great direct racing experience in one of the greatest series there are.

There is a question of how to frame that experience in game terms, but I have confidence that something truly grand can come from PD Towers if they reflect on the good parts of Gran Turismo's legacy, and what other games aren't doing in regard to your suggestion of giving us the feeling of involvement in a real life race series. I need to finish my dream post on that, but I might wait till just before E3.

On the matter of the online system and how it plays, I did say "mostly lag free." My take on the SONY presentation is of a console that's even more integrated into the internet than the PC is now. Friends are just a click away, giving you the chance to watch what they're playing, not just ask over a mic. Poke at a show on a PSN service and not just watch a trailer, but some of the show itself. Play a part of a game while it streams it to your PS4. Mark Cerny was painting a mural of a PS Network which was finally 21st Century and had some backbone to handle this kind of traffic from tens of millions of users at once. This is ambitious, but they bought into some net companies besides Gaikai to help them with this. Again, we'll see, but it sounds like they're serious about making online play about the same as offline.

In that regard, PD has to be thinking about what online play means to everyone else playing PC games, and how they can harness the connectivity of the PS4 to wire people together in GT6 seamlessly. Online Race Builder tools have got to be robust and comprehensive, enabling gamers to toss up single fun races, all the way up to the creation of online racing leagues.

Offline too, I want to come back briefly on that. They do need to make the offline racing in GT6 as big a blast as possible. Great graphics are just the start. I'm with the sim guys here who want to see some hardcore gameplay aspects, at least as an option, allowing gamers to face serious racing challenges with strict real world racing restrictions. League racing with league rules. Season Mode which throws you into the racing league of your choice, with a calendar and stat tracking to give you the experience of what it takes to fight a pack of 24 or more competitors for points and the championship. A Career Mode which reflects the real world challenges of a youth starting from a sports car, and shooting for a slot in a professional racing league, with a few tiers to progress through like America's SCCA to ALMS for example. This would incorporate elements such as Race Mod and the Livery Editor to convert a solid sports car to a racing machine meeting the specifications of a league. And no huge cash prizes or prize cars to collect, which will still be available in classic GT Mode.

I'm totally with you on seeing GT6 on some real Playstation hardware, so I'm not even going to consider the seven year old relic. Kaz has likely been thinking the same thing for years now, and thinking about the many things he'd done to GT5 to vex us fans. And not everything has irked us all equally, but he knows where we aren't happy. The power of PS4 will enable all tracks to have weather and time of day changes. Amazing realistic night lighting. Incredible physics, A.I., tire modeling, damage and weather consequences. Gameplay elements like I mentioned above. PSN which can handle a GT Market, kind of like Forza's Storefront and Auction House, where you can buy tunes, decals, entire liveries, even complete race cars. A high def Course Maker. An Event Maker which works offline and on, and online can be used to manage all kinds of tasks, including as I mentioned, building an entire online league, not just a clan or club. The Movie Maker which you mentioned, that PS3's skimpy ram made impossible for GT5.

I know a lot of people think Kaz has lost it in GT5 and just can't recover. I don't share that view. I have faith that the team still knows how to deliver an amazing game to us, and PS4 will enable most of our dreams to come true.

 

[Eks]

This has been a really interesting read! Love it. 👍

 

[cassiusclay99]

Tenacious D-> I would agree on almost everything you said... except your blind trust in Kaz. He did not demonstrate that he knows how to make a great game...actually it's the contrary! year after year he demonstrated that he has no vision beyond what he crafted in GT1 (which was absolute fantastic). The core of the game, its structure has not moved since 15 years...

You say GT6 is going to be much more than GT5? But what makes you think that when GT5 was not much than GT4? The gap you talk about was expected between GT4 et GT5... not between 5 and 6 (especially if it comes out on PS3, which i am pretty sure of...)

Kaz kept talking about a vision for GT5...but which one: if one thing, GT5 HAS ABSOLUTLY ZERO VISION IN IT! It 's just a mix of cars and tracks of different quality standards thrown on a disc. the XP, the paints, everything is unthought and broken...

And guess what: the updates and patches prove that they have no idea where to take GT or how to correct their game. GT5 is still a terrible mess.
Hell, they got the Top gear track (great idea!)... but did NOTHING with it!!
The online is the worst online experience ever! Seriously... absolutly a pain...takes months to find a good race.... unable to simply invite friends ...no leaderboards.... unacceptable... undefendable.
Where is the vision Kaz?

If Kaz is still the boss, GT6 will just prove that he has no idea what to do next. We will have more cars, beautiful ones (though the selection would be ridiculously stupid: masterpieces missing... crap cars in all their glory), beautiful tracks, night races, more opponents (but the IA? i would not bet on any progress...)... basically they would let us do whatever they can technically do: night, snow, rain, etc... but the vision? The novelty? With Kaz in charge, expect nothing but an arrogant, pompuous, broken mess.

Mark my words.

 

[Eks]

Kaz had a vision, but the PS3 just wasn't a big enough canvas for it.

 

[cassiusclay99]

Eks-> This "PS3 had not enough power" has to stop. MANY devs have produced fantastic games on PS3... why could not PD do the same?
And it's a producer's job to deal with technical constraints: it's the same for everybody. Except that Kaz has an unlimited budget and time...where other devs have not only to deal with technical constraints but also time/budget ones.... See? No excuse here.

And still: what vision are we talking about? Has ever Kaz explained what this so called "vision" was? And let's not talk about this "open world" stuff he talked about once... this is not a vision: it's an idea thrown in the air... (and that many other developpers achieved while Kaz could not put his ideas together).

Seriously: stop using this "ps3 power" excuse for kaz when you would not accept it from any other producer. As a Sony boss, Kaz knew better and sooner than anyone what PS3 could and could not do. The truth he has no idea what HE can do.

 

[jimipitbull]

Except, Kaz has made the best driving games for over a decade.

Is that not good enough for you?

 

[Samus]

Except, Kaz has made the best driving games for over a decade.

Is that not good enough for you?

Opinion =/= Fact.

 

[cassiusclay99]

Except, Kaz has made the best driving games for over a decade.

Is that not good enough for you?

Well... no.
Kaz is the one that makes decisions and he is supposed to imagine new experiences and new ways of playing. in that matter, GT1 was a masterpiece. The next ones are the same recipe over and over...after 15 years! Even GT4, as fantastic as it was, was plagued with stupid decisions or mistakes.

I won't give credits to Kaz about the physics engine and the technical achievements as he probably does not code himself (anymore?). His technical crew and programmers are fantastic... but the priorities and the game design choices are a mess. GT5's framerate is the perfect illustration of that point: Kaz always said that 60fps were an absolute must...but we all know that, under stress, GT5 FR dips way under 60... they should have sacrificed some useless effects in order to maitain a perfect FR... but they chose not to... which is the biggets regeression in GT's history. (As a GT fan, it's my main gripe against GT5: the framerate and tearing are unbearable on some tracks... but I know not everyone is as sensitive as me on this matter)

I could go on on GT5 stupid decisions forever...we all know it's flawed in many many ways... and the patches fix minor problems, ignoring biggest ones (often very easy to fix though...) ...when they don't bring new problems!
I insist: these are not technical problems (or ps3's lack of power): it's stupid decision from people who think they have nothing to learn from other devs and know better than anyone. Most of these problems should never have passed the simplest internal testing stage.

Why don't you answer my questions about Kaz's vision instead ?

 

[Samus]

It's a point you can't really argue, GT5 is essentially the same game as GT1.




Whatever his vision is we haven't seen it yet.

 

[jimipitbull]

His vision was to create realistic driving simulators

 

[Griffith500]

Actually, GT5 is less single-mindedly about the "campaign" to 100% completion than earlier games, and allows for more "idle" gameplay. I'm not really sure what sea changes people are expecting, though: it's Gran Turismo, it's going to play like Gran Turismo. If the next game can offer more choice whilst sticking to that "formula", I'll be happy. I have other games that do other things anyway.

 

[Samus]

Innovation, new ideas and approaches. I don't even mind if they get it a bit wrong on the first try, just try something different and new to the genre that isn't a broken XP system.

Yes things like free run are never going to change, it is what it is but the 'GT Mode' can certainly change as can even things like time trial. Where is GTs attempt at something like Autolog and Rivals mode in other games? Where are the leaderboards?

I'm just not seeing any attempt to innovate, it's the exact same basic formula as GT1. Buy a car, enter some pre-defined races, buy/win some more cars and enter some other races at your leisure. The races are even the same, they can't even think up new endurance races for goodness sake.

 

[cassiusclay99]

Griffith-> That s what keeps Gt from evolving. The GT community is revering Kaz and can't even think of novelty!

On top of my head? As there are B-specs with IA friends and endurance races...why not being able to build a team with our IA and race endurance with them? To me that was the whole point in building bobs! being able to build a team where I could race on their side... against teams from other players online... i was sure this would be possible in Gt5... but guess what: no it isn't.

We could also build teams made only of real people online... A 24h race where you are just one of the 4 drivers.... facing 3 other 4 players teams...

What about being able to make our own race: choose our opponents for instance... instead of facing cars randomly chosen by the game?

What about being able to challenge friends just sending him a PM ?

What about everything that autolog does (seriously guys... anyone who tried autolog can't honnestly say that GT5's online is acceptable...it's a shame)?

What about building a true solo campain with some kind of story where you are a driver trying to end up WRC champ, or F1 champ by winning all the inferior categories?

What about being able to drive on any real track under real time conditions? (if it s raining on the ring today, then it s raining in the game, if it s night time...)?

What about trying to beat some real world records: like 0 to 100 km/h, 0 to 200, fastest mile, etc... It would require you to finely tune and finely choose your car.

What about having a driver that can DIE! Like : you had a front crash at 300mph? Game over dude. (please spare me the "brands will never accept that" 🤬)

What about participating in real competitions? With licences and so on?

what about some fun challenges like Gymkhana?

What about being able to drive cars like they were IRL? No power steering, automatic gearbox, ABS or ESP on a 1950 car ! Such a pain to have to manually change settings for every car. Talk about realism!

Only on this forum i could read hundreds of great ideas from passionned fans! But it seems to me that PD does not care...

 

[sinbad]

Innovation, new ideas and approaches. I don't even mind if they get it a bit wrong on the first try, just try something different and new to the genre that isn't a broken XP system.

Yes things like free run are never going to change, it is what it is but the 'GT Mode' can certainly change as can even things like time trial. Where is GTs attempt at something like Autolog and Rivals mode in other games? Where are the leaderboards?

I'm just not seeing any attempt to innovate, it's the exact same basic formula as GT1. Buy a car, enter some pre-defined races, buy/win some more cars and enter some other races at your leisure. The races are even the same, they can't even think up new endurance races for goodness sake.

I agree. Too much weight is given to the visuals. It's like they think "if it looks like this, how could anybody not love it?".
The attention to visual detail of cars has usurped great gameplay innovation.

I'm all for the idea that a great car and a great track can be enough for months of fun if the physics and other elements are brilliant, (who would play video games if they had free use of their local circuit and a decent car to drive in, free of charge, forever?) but let's be honest, gt will never deliver that level of immersion, so even though there are lots of cars and tracks gt has to be more than that as a game.

As an aside I much preferred the old ui with the map of your home, dealers etc, it's not like they even fixed the cursor randomness with the new one! It was like a gt signature, I hope they bring it back.