Gran Turismo 6 coming to PS3

[diegorborges]

Kaz participates in one or two events a year at an intermediate level. He is not an expert in the field of motor racing any more than Dan Greenawalt is.

Sorry Simon, I disagree this time... Kaz definitely is more into racing than Dan.

 

[another_jakhole]

I didn't know Dan Greenawalt drove a race car. You can attempt to discredit that fact all you want but the truth remains this - Kaz has participated in the 'Ring 24HR (for example) more then once.

That fact alone puts him a very select crowd.

A 24-hour race is nothing. Now 25 hours is SOMETHING!
https://www.gtplanet.net/kazunori-yamauchi-on-track-at-thunder-hill/

ugh, the comments to that article...

 

[Samus]

I didn't know Dan Greenawalt drove a race car. You can attempt to discredit that fact all you want but the truth remains this - Kaz has participated in the 'Ring 24HR (for example) more then once.

That fact alone puts him a very select crowd.

Never said he didn't, the point was his minor motorsport activity is not a reason to have more confidence in him making a racing game.

Sorry Simon, I disagree this time... Kaz definitely is more into racing than Dan.

Yes but he's no more of an expert than him was my point. Doing a few races doesn't make you an expert, even 24hr ones. You can do those as an amateur.

 

[cuco33]

Like GTHD, GTPSP and GT5P you mean? *Shrugs* Heh, depends really. I'm thinking nothing shouldn't be holding them back this time hopefully (HOPEFULLY just in case somebody SAIDS something ), but like I said, depends.

PD did a lot more than those games. 4k tech demos for Sony to GTR HUD design and NISMO 350Z aero kit design to promo videos for a few auto manufacturers to even exclusive sim setups for some auto dealerships, among more. Some could say that was work in the auto industry but that all, while not growing the team nor outsourcing lead to mismanagement of their core business which is making GT games. GTHD was only in limited demo state, PSP didn't even have a career structure and 4 cars on track, Prologue was a moneyhatting test bed for GT5 and GT5 launched buggy, broken, with the bulk of content being bad port workleaving the game to be the most patched game in console history. Shame too because there are moments GT5 absolutely shines.
Oh and Kaz's own personal experience as a driver for Nurb24 didn't bring endurance racing the way it should have been done (no driver swaps, no multiclass racing, no damage in enduro events, etc)

I hope they got their heads on straight and focus on GT6. GT6 can be absolutely amazing and all It needs is PD's full attention.

BF4 according to rumors would be multi platform as well, PC, PS3 and PS4, if they can do it ( DICE + EA ), PD + Sony can do it too.

We already see what consoles sacrificed compared to PC for BF3. PCs get much better visuals, 64 vs 24 players, larger maps.. this is why I do not want to see GT6 on both consoles

 

[maxpontiac]

Never said he didn't, the point was his minor motorsport activity is not a reason to have more confidence in him making a racing game.

You can come up with every adjective you want to take away from what he does and it won't change a thing.

I am not quite sure why refuse to accept that Kaz has some expertise in the field of racing. I bet he has some sound advice for EVERY corner on the Green Hell. I can't think of better qualifications.

Yes but he's no more of an expert than him was my point. Doing a few races doesn't make you an expert, even 24hr ones. You can do those as an amateur.

A point that is grievously wrong. I can imagine all the things Kaz could tell us that simply put, only a few could.

 

[TokoTurismo]

PD did a lot more than those games. 4k tech demos for Sony to GTR HUD design and NISMO 350Z aero kit design to promo videos for a few auto manufacturers to even exclusive sim setups for some auto dealerships, among more. Some could say that was work in the auto industry but that all, while not growing the team nor outsourcing lead to mismanagement of their core business which is making GT games. GTHD was only in limited demo state, PSP didn't even have a career structure and 4 cars on track, Prologue was a moneyhatting test bed for GT5 and GT5 launched buggy, broken, with the bulk of content being bad port workleaving the game to be the most patched game in console history. Shame too because there are moments GT5 absolutely shines.
Oh and Kaz's own personal experience as a driver for Nurb24 didn't bring endurance racing the way it should have been done (no driver swaps, no multiclass racing, no damage in enduro events, etc)

I hope they got their heads on straight and focus on GT6. GT6 can be absolutely amazing and all It needs is PD's full attention.

That was a lot of projects, no wonder GT5 came out the way it did. Also Kaz's experience for the endurance events, didn't have enough time to work on them but I still agree. I really hope GT6 is the only one they're working on this time.

 

[Griffith500]

Never said he didn't, the point was his minor motorsport activity is not a reason to have more confidence in him making a racing game.

Yes but he's no more of an expert than him was my point. Doing a few races doesn't make you an expert, even 24hr ones. You can do those as an amateur.

I'd suspect that doing a few "minor" races like the 24hrs of Nürburgring puts him in a much better position than most games developers; it certainly makes him knowledgable - "expert" was your wording, although that's a relative term, too.

 

[Samus]

You can come up with every adjective you want to take away from what he does and it won't change a thing.

I am not quite sure why refuse to accept that Kaz has some expertise in the field of racing. I bet he has some sound advice for EVERY corner on the Green Hell. I can't think of better qualifications.

A point that is grievously wrong. I can imagine all the things Kaz could tell us that simply put, only a few could.

Only a few, seriously? Kaz takes part in races on the Nurburgring, a track that until recently anyone could drive day in, day out and one that holds plenty of other races, again until recently. I'm sure Kaz could give us some advice and tips about the ring but that doesn't make him an expert professional race driver that is more trusted to make a better video game.

The members of Top Gear took part in a 24 hour race at Silverstone as amateurs, would you trust their opinion on anything motor racing? What license does Kaz even hold anyway? Can I remind you that the 24 Hour Nurburgring is also aimed at amateurs.

Your original post was this:

Indeed. The fact that Kaz himself puts his person in harms way speaks volumes to me on who to trust when it comes to racing video games.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't see how simply going racing makes him more trustworthy to build a racing game than a game created by someone with no physical racing experience.

 

[Griffith500]

Only a few, seriously? Kaz takes part in races on the Nurburgring, a track that until recently anyone could drive day in, day out and one that holds plenty of other races, again until recently. I'm sure Kaz could give us some advice and tips about the ring but that doesn't make him an expert professional race driver that is more trusted to make a better video game.

The members of Top Gear took part in a 24 hour race at Silverstone as amateurs, would you trust their opinion on anything motor racing? What license does Kaz even hold anyway? Can I remind you that the 24 Hour Nurburgring is also aimed at amateurs.

Your original post was this:



What I'm trying to say is that I don't see how simply going racing makes him more trustworthy to build a racing game than a game created by someone with no physical racing experience.

So it doesn't matter if the next GT game is built on made-up assumptions of what racing is like? Because without actual experience, or feedback (via the massively flawed vehicle that is "communication") from those with experience, a developer can only do that.

I would certainly trust Clarkson's notions of the more experiential aspects of racing, it's how you frame that experience that matters. When Kaz races, I'm sure he's constantly thinking about how to put this or that into his game; Jezza, not so much.

 

[avens]

This genre really needs a new breaking game to be released soon. So many projects on beta stage right now on the pc and so many awaited sequels on consoles, plus the new IP for the ps4.

2 years and counting since gt5, with supposedly gt6 going to be released on way less time than gt5 (6 years).

 

[Samus]

So it doesn't matter if the next GT game is built on made-up assumptions of what racing is like? Because without actual experience, or feedback (via the massively flawed vehicle that is "communication") from those with experience, a developer can only do that.

Yes but with no disrespect to Kaz (I have no idea how good a driver he is) he is still an amateur. He doesn't have many races under his belt and correct me if I'm wrong, they're all on one circuit. Yes of course even completing one lap of any circuit in a race car is going to give you some real world experience to take to your racing game but how much? If hypothetically Michael Schumacher (Or any veteran racing driver) were to join PD I'm pretty sure he could give the physics programmers much more detailed feedback than Kaz could with regards to how a race car feels etc etc.

I'm not doubting what Kaz does or his ability to take information from the track to the game, I'm just saying given that his experience is pretty small what he can give probably isn't going to be any more than a hired racing driver could, which is what Forza have or had.

 

[cassiusclay99]

Maxpontiac-> The problem is not what Kaz knows or doesn't know. The problem is what he does with it.

It seems to me that he's not interested in GT anymore...

Yes, Kaz knows what racing is.... though the IA is so bad in GT that the racing experience is really broken (note that I talk about the RACING, not the DRIVING).

Kaz knows what a car does when it hits another one...though we still have a ridiculous collision engine in GT. Not even speaking of the sound of the collisions that is even more ridiculous (I wonder how their sound engineer made this one...)

Kaz knows how a racing car sounds...though we get crappy engine sounds.

Kaz knows that, in a car, you don't only hear the engine but also the chassis, the rocks under the car, the dampers that knock at full compression, the tires that don't always sqeeze but can produce a big variety of sounds... though we still have absolutely no sound from the car body. none.

Kaz knows that hard tyres can provide a decisive advantage against soft ones on long races... though the tyres model is completely catastrophic. With soft tyres way too efficient to make hard ones relevent.

And all I am talking about has nothing to do with PS3 power... other games do it way better than GT.... it's just that PD/Kaz became lazy and very unprofessionnal.

I've seen more often Kaz on racing tracks and peeble beach than in his studio answering questions, promoting his game and/or solving problems.

GT is the biggest franchise and yet they make anouncements through Kaz's twitter...and only in japanese for years! No forum. No blog. Nothing. Unprofessionnal and disrespectful to their foreigners fans.

These are facts. Not some blind trust in whatever ******** Kaz can come with.

And I laugh at people who talk about Kaz as if they knew the guy personnally... seriously mates... You think reading interviews where HE talks about himself gives you a realistic picture of him?

he can repeat how consciencious and fastidious he is as often as he likes: anyone who has played GT5 for 1 hour knows the truth.

PD needs to redeem itself. And Kaz needs to go.

 

[Griffith500]

Yes but with no disrespect to Kaz (I have no idea how good a driver he is) he is still an amateur. He doesn't have many races under his belt and correct me if I'm wrong, they're all on one circuit. Yes of course even completing one lap of any circuit in a race car is going to give you some real world experience to take to your racing game but how much? If hypothetically Michael Schumacher (Or any veteran racing driver) were to join PD I'm pretty sure he could give the physics programmers much more detailed feedback than Kaz could with regards to how a race car feels etc etc.

I'm not doubting what Kaz does or his ability to take information from the track to the game, I'm just saying given that his experience is pretty small what he can give probably isn't going to be any more than a hired racing driver could, which is what Forza have or had.

He has raced on at least two circuits, the other being Thunderhill in the US, and he's driven several more. Schumacher would be a boon to any team, obviously (assuming he can actually communicate with them, i.e. they understand what he means), but having someone who spends so much time on the game having spent even a little time in the seat will be just as valuable (in different areas, crucially).

This must be especially true when you factor in the sheer number of different cars Kaz has driven, and that he's raced alongside professionals and had them play his games to give feedback. Then there's GT Academy - all sorts of good info must be trickling down from that.
It's not that Kaz races, it's that he races and does what everyone else does, and more. I think that makes him pretty knowledgeable, and very useful to have around on a game like this.

I also didn't realise this was GT vs. Forza, so excuse me...

@cassiusclay99, maybe cut down on the hypocrisy and try again?

 

[KinLM]

Maxpontiac-> The problem is not what Kaz knows or doesn't know. The problem is what he does with it.

It seems to me that he's not interested in GT anymore...

Yes, Kaz knows what racing is.... though the IA is so bad in GT that the racing experience is really broken (note that I talk about the RACING, not the DRIVING).

Kaz knows what a car does when it hits another one...though we still have a ridiculous collision engine in GT. Not even speaking of the sound of the collisions that is even more ridiculous (I wonder how their sound engineer made this one...)

Kaz knows how a racing car sounds...though we get crappy engine sounds.

Kaz knows that, in a car, you don't only hear the engine but also the chassis, the rocks under the car, the dampers that knock at full compression, the tires that don't always sqeeze but can produce a big variety of sounds... though we still have absolutely no sound from the car body. none.

Kaz knows that hard tyres can provide a decisive advantage against soft ones on long races... though the tyres model is completely catastrophic. With soft tyres way too efficient to make hard ones relevent.

And all I am talking about has nothing to do with PS3 power... other games do it way better than GT.... it's just that PD/Kaz became lazy and very unprofessionnal.

I've seen more often Kaz on racing tracks and peeble beach than in his studio answering questions, promoting his game and/or solving problems.

GT is the biggest franchise and yet they make anouncements through Kaz's twitter...and only in japanese for years! No forum. No blog. Nothing. Unprofessionnal and disrespectful to their foreigners fans.

These are facts. Not some blind trust in whatever ******** Kaz can come with.

And I laugh at people who talk about Kaz as if they knew the guy personnally... seriously mates... You think reading interviews where HE talks about himself gives you a realistic picture of him?

he can repeat how consciencious and fastidious he is as often as he likes: anyone who has played GT5 for 1 hour knows the truth.

PD needs to redeem itself. And Kaz needs to go.

Pretty ironic, you "laugh" at those who act like they know him.. But that's exactly what you did. I'm not denying that GT5 is greatly flawed and I'm in no way trying to dispute that.

But it's very obvious that you don't know him, so how is anything you just stated any bit more credible than a fanboy's?

 

[maxpontiac]

Only a few, seriously?

I do not have the exact count but you say that like Kaz just walked to his local McDonalds or something.

The members of Top Gear took part in a 24 hour race at Silverstone as amateurs, would you trust their opinion on anything motor racing? What license does Kaz even hold anyway? Can I remind you that the 24 Hour Nurburgring is also aimed at amateurs.

Considering that I, you, or a VAST majority of video game players have never done that before, sure I would. I place merit on others accomplishment over let's say, some other developer who hasn't or just some regular forum poster.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't see how simply going racing makes him more trustworthy to build a racing game than a game created by someone with no physical racing experience.

Yes, I am aware of what I said. Kaz has driven the 'Ring (for example) at 200 plus mph. I respect that in the way that he actually has real world experience in the field of racing (what GT is about). Hence... I trust the way he depicts it in GT5.

I encourage you to look at this from a professional and objective view.

 

[Samus]

Pretty ironic, you "laugh" at those who act like they know him.. But that's exactly what you did. I'm not denying that GT5 is greatly flawed and I'm in no way trying to dispute that.

But it's very obvious that you don't know him, so how is anything you just stated any bit more credible than a fanboy's?

Which part of what he said wasn't true?

I do not have the exact count but you say that like Kaz just walked to his local McDonalds or something.

Well for a start 800 or more drivers take part in the race Kaz did. Then there are surely the thousands of racing drivers with more experience than him.

Serious question, do you have his racing history to hand?

Considering that I, you, or a VAST majority of video game players have never done that before, sure I would. I place merit on others accomplishment over let's say, some other developer who hasn't or just some regular forum poster.

Yes but as I say, what if another game developer has someone on board that has magnitudes more experience? Neither Dan nor Kaz actually program anything so what difference does it make if the producer tells the developers what racing is like or an outside consultant does?

As for the last point, this has nothing to do with me or you, it was about who as a developer was more trusted to make a racing game, one with a bit of racing experience or one with not as much/none.

Yes, I am aware of what I said. Kaz has driven the 'Ring (for example) at 200 plus mph. I respect that in the way that he actually has real world experience in the field of racing (what GT is about). Hence... I trust the way he depicts it in GT5.

You trust the way he depicts what? Racing or the Nurburgring? Yes the latter is extremely well depicted in GT5, I'd be a fool to argue otherwise but racing in general? It's woefully depicted in GT5, cassius above outlines a few reasons why.

 

[maxpontiac]

Well for a start 800 or more drivers take part in the race Kaz did. Then there are surely the thousands of racing drivers with more experience than him.

Not relevant to this discussion since I doubt none of them have video game series. Plus, stop and think about it for a second. He drove the Ring (for example) in a competition. Many can't even drive that track on game without life ending errors.

Serious question, do you have his racing history to hand?

As a matter of fact, no I don't, but you are more than welcome to post it. It won't help your agument against me.

Yes but as I say, what if another game developer has someone on board that has magnitudes more experience? Neither Dan nor Kaz actually program anything so what difference does it make if the producer tells the developers what racing is like or an outside consultant does?

You can think that all you like but it doesn't change the fact that he has raced in a big time race (amateur or not) and it sure means more to me then someone who sits a computer or engages in field trips.

As for the last point, this has nothing to do with me or you, it was about who as a developer was more trusted to make a racing game, one with a bit of racing experience or one with not as much/none.

OK. With that said, I still trust Kaz over someone else. You don't. Next?

You trust the way he depicts what? Racing or the Nurburgring? Yes the latter is extremely well depicted in GT5, I'd be a fool to argue otherwise but racing in general? It's woefully depicted in GT5, cassius above outlines a few reasons why.

Yes Simon, I get that you have issues with GT5. How could I not?

 

[Tornado]

Pretty sure most sims and sim-like games have someone actively involved with the game development who races for realz.

 

[Ills1999]

Only a few, seriously? Kaz takes part in races on the Nurburgring, a track that until recently anyone could drive day in, day out and one that holds plenty of other races, again until recently. I'm sure Kaz could give us some advice and tips about the ring but that doesn't make him an expert professional race driver that is more trusted to make a better video game.

The members of Top Gear took part in a 24 hour race at Silverstone as amateurs, would you trust their opinion on anything motor racing? What license does Kaz even hold anyway? Can I remind you that the 24 Hour Nurburgring is also aimed at amateurs.

Your original post was this:



What I'm trying to say is that I don't see how simply going racing makes him more trustworthy to build a racing game than a game created by someone with no physical racing experience.

cosign

 

[Samus]

Not relevant to this discussion since I doubt none of them have video game series. Plus, stop and think about it for a second. He drove the Ring (for example) in a competition. Many can't even drive that track on game without life ending errors.

Great. That isn't really anything to do with the original point you made that caused this branch of discussion, which was that "very few" could give the feedback Kaz could.

As a matter of fact, no I don't, but you are more than welcome to post it. It won't help your agument against me.

Contrary to what you may believe I don't see this as an argument against you, I'm merely trying to assert why you put so much faith into Kaz based on his racing experience.

You can think that all you like but it doesn't change the fact that he has raced in a big time race (amateur or not) and it sure means more to me then someone who sits a computer or engages in field trips.


OK. With that said, I still trust Kaz over someone else. You don't. Next?

Well the curious thing would be WHY you trust Kaz, specifically? Are you saying you trust him more than you would someone like Gunner Jeanette or any racing driver with buckets more experience? Why? I'm honestly curious. Do you also believe that it makes a difference that Kaz is the producer and any racing driver another game hires isn't?

Yes Simon, I get that you have issues with GT5. How could I not?

I obviously like GT games in general, I wouldn't be sat here typing if I didn't but right now I don't have a great deal of faith in PD or Kaz. I'm curious why you do, and why it's (I assume partly) based on racing experience.

 

[Griffith500]

... who as a developer was more trusted to make a racing game, one with a bit of racing experience or one with not as much/none.
...

Presumably, a random poster on the internet is fully qualified to ascertain whether a mere producer (creative director, but whatever) has "enough" racing experience to actually add value to the production of his / her game.

That being said, I think it's obvious that any experience helps. I don't think we should be comparing games with or without a racer-director, though, as so much else is different that it's meaningless.

As for trusting Kaz, we can trust Kaz to be Kaz, and I'm OK with that, there are lots of games to play.
Also, the depiction of "general racing" in the entire genre is woeful. It's not all FIA GT and bro-dude skids out there in the wilds.

 

[KinLM]

Which part of what he said wasn't true?

For a start, I'd like to know if he has any actual evidence that Kaz "doesn't care" about GT anymore?

I'm not denying most of what he said. What I'm saying is that it's very hypocritical of him to make a mockery of those who "know" Kaz (yes, those people annoy me as well) but then he goes on and acts like he knows Kaz just as well. That's what I'm getting at.

 

[Griffith500]

Not to mention the power trip.

...

PD needs to redeem itself. And Kaz needs to go.

 

[Tornado]

Eh, needs more spray-on tan:

 

[TokoTurismo]

LOL @Griffith500 AND @Toronado

 

[tube chaser]

I'mma grab the conch for a minute. Belittling Kaz's participation in the 'Ring 24h is as inversely biased as us fanboys who forgive GT5's .. eccentricities. Really, driving that circuit safely let alone competitively - whilst making room for those terrifying LMPs to scream past requires more than just an 'amateur' skill-set. And he is a top notch programmer, so yes, I'd trust Kaz over another project manager. That trust however is suspended by a single hair of a horse's tail

 

[KinLM]

Eh, needs more spray-on tan:

*Picture*

This and the picture above just made my day. Thanks guys!

 

[Samus]

I'mma grab the conch for a minute. Belittling Kaz's participation in the 'Ring 24h is as inversely biased as us fanboys who forgive GT5's .. eccentricities. Really, driving that circuit safely let alone competitively - whilst making room for those terrifying LMPs to scream past requires more than just an 'amateur' skill-set. And he is a top notch programmer, so yes, I'd trust Kaz over another project manager. That trust however is suspended by a single hair of a horse's tail

No doubting that at all (Although there are no LMPs at the Nur 24hr). What I'm trying to say is why does whatever experience Kaz has get held in a higher regard than any other racing driver doing the same thing, but not directing the whole game? Gunner Jeannette has competed in the Le Mans 24 Hour race eight times and countless other Endurance races. He is without doubt more experienced than Kaz and assisted on Forza.

 

[cassiusclay99]

For a start, I'd like to know if he has any actual evidence that Kaz "doesn't care" about GT anymore?

I'm not denying most of what he said. What I'm saying is that it's very hypocritical of him to make a mockery of those who "know" Kaz (yes, those people annoy me as well) but then he goes on and acts like he knows Kaz just as well. That's what I'm getting at.

You must have red my post a bit too fast. My opinion on Kaz is based on his games and PD's policy regarding its community... and that's the only thing that matters.

Facts that you don't even deny...I did not make my opinion on what Kaz says or his so called "vision" he never even bothered sharing with us.

He made wonderful games until the 3rd. the 4th was fantastic too but we could already see signs of "lazyness": looked like the game was not really thought or fully tested.(btw: I loved omega boost too)

And now GT5 is a mess, plagued with so many bad decisions it's even ridiculous on some points. Go and see the poll GTplanet did... the list of problems never ends!

To me, Kaz is like those great movie directors that made their masterpiece a long time ago...and now have nothing left to say.

He may be a wondefrul guy IRL... i don't know, but as a GT producer? I think he needs a long break.

I find it weird how everytime I criticize Kaz, people don't even try to deny my arguments but attack me personnally.

And for the record, I wrote: "It seems to me than he isn't interested in GT anymore"... and then backed it up with facts. And you say I speak as if I knew him?

 

[tube chaser]

Cheers for the correction 👍 *waits for facial capillaries to constrict*

I remember an interview years ago (Benetton era?) where a race engineer praised Schumy's feedback because it was very technical. T10 may have fantastic consultants but do they understand the language of machine code as well as that of their cars?