Gran Turismo 6 E3 2013, General discussion(Live streaming links).

[G.T.Ace]

Your post is pointless.

This part:

When the [PlayStation 2] came out, one unique characteristic of that system was that the screen fill rate was very fast. Even looking back now, it’s very fast. In some cases, it’s faster than the PS3. There, we were able to use a lot of textures. It was able to do that read-modify-write, where it reads the screen, you take the screenshot, and you modify it and send it back. It could do that very quickly.
I don’t know if anybody remembers, but when the PS2 first came out, the first thing I did on that was a demo for the announcement. I showed a demo of GT3 that showed the Seattle course at sunset with the heat rising off the ground and shimmering. You can’t re-create that heat haze effect on the PS3 because the read-modify-write just isn’t as fast as when we were using the PS2. There are things like that. Another reason is because of the transition to full HD.
The PS3 was a combination of a poor GPU with an SPU that’s really fast if you use it right. It’s not a very well-balanced machine. It’s hard to use the hardware properly. That’s one reason why it took us five years to develop GT5. Using the SPU properly, though, that in itself is really interesting. On the PS3, in the demo, we showed the adaptive tessellation. That’s the kind of technology that you normally wouldn’t be able to do unless you were on the PS4-generation of machines. When you optimize the use of the SPU properly, you can do that even on the PS3.

Is extremely interesting and something very rare to read.

 

[RoadRunner99]

This is a part I found quite interesting...

Yamauchi: We’ve done things like relieving the stress of the menus and transitions, making it faster with things like that. But what I want people to be drawn to in GT6 is really the feeling of driving in the game. That’s what impresses me the most when I’m playing GT6 in the middle of testing out the system.

 

[Eks]

I thought screen-fill rate was hertz? Anyway, interesting read. Kinda answers my question as to why there's no heat effect in GT5.

 

[TheDabbinDave]

Who cares about Nascar?

That interview was pretty pointless btw, no point posting that lol.

Racers care.

It was a good interview. Do you really think Kaz is going to reveal every new car and every new track in GT6? Yeah, sure he will.

It sounds like GT6 is gonna be great for TTs and online racing and that's it. Blah.

 

[finnracer]

Your post is pointless.

This part:

Is extremely interesting and something very rare to read.

+1 Very interesting and surprising.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Your post is pointless.

This part:

Is extremely interesting and something very rare to read.

I think some tracks have the heat haze effect in GT5,not as much as it was evident in say Laguna seca in GT3 but it is still there.

Great read though 👍

 

[Griffith500]

I thought screen-fill rate was hertz? Anyway, interesting read. Kinda answers my question as to why there's no heat effect in GT5.

Hertz is really just an obscure (if you're not up on your science history) way of saying "per second" - it doesn't specify what, just how often (although strictly speaking it's cycles per second - but cycles of what?)

What Kaz was talking about was pixel fillrate, not whole framerate. The latter depends on everything, not just how long it takes to perform operations on individual pixels - which is how the heat haze effect worked: screen-space (using the Z-buffer) and per-pixel.

I did wonder why the effect disappeared, hopefully a 7870 has the same kind of per-pixel power at HD resolutions. Also nice to know I was right about tessellation and the SPUs.

 

[drivatar]

+1 Very interesting and surprising.

It's surprising Kaz is talking about this 👍 but the facts aren't new .

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I'm thinking that GT6 will be out for a good two years. In that timeframe, I'd expect PD to have accomplished enough work on the PS4 version that it be a whole new Gran Turismo, and thus labeled GT7.

I am thinking this is a very likely senario myself.

I hope they don't end up porting GT6 to PS4, sweeten up the graphics, then *bam.* GT7.

Sweeten the graphics and call it GT7?? You got to be kidding. The graphics are good already. There is many other things that could be improved and make the game better other than the graphics.

I expect GT6 for PS4 and GT7 will be two separate releases, assuming the former will happen. It could potentially be used to "tempt" GT6 players to PS4 earlier with some kind of offer. But GT6 needs to come out for PS3 first.

This sounds like a possibility as well.

I thought screen-fill rate was hertz? Anyway, interesting read. Kinda answers my question as to why there's no heat effect in GT5.

Screen refresh rate [i.e. The rate the montior refreshes the display] is in Hertz. This does not refer to the time it takes a device to draw and image on the screen which is what the fill rate would be.

Hertz is really just an obscure (if you're not up on your science history) way of saying "per second" - it doesn't specify what, just how often (although strictly speaking it's cycles per second - but cycles of what?)

Hertz refers to electricity, AC to be specific. 1 hertz is 1 complete cycle of the AC sign wave 0 to +Peak voltage to 0 to -peak voltage to 0. This is one complete revolution of an Alternator. An altenator being spun at 3600 RPM gives an output of 60 Hertz

 

[another_jakhole]

I don't know if already posted...

http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/14/h...ori-yamauchi-design-gran-turismo-6-interview/

Kazunori Yamauchi is the father of the authentic racing-simulation game. His Gran Turismo series, which he has designed since the launch of the original PlayStation, has sold more than 70 million units since 1997. Gran Turismo 6 arrives in the fall for PlayStation 3, and Yamauchi, the chief executive of Sony’s Polyphony Digital game studio, told GamesBeat that becoming a pro race driver has helped him design a more realistic game.
Yamauchi talked with us at the Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) in a small group interview. Here’s an edited version of the talk.

GamesBeat: If you have an untrained eye, what would you notice that’s better about PlayStation 4 racing games compared to the PlayStation 3?
Kazunori Yamauchi: It’ll be an answer for an untrained eye as well, but the hardware performance of the PS4 is much better than the PS3, so you’re going to be a much richer image.

GamesBeat: What if I don’t care about graphics so much, though? What if it looks good enough for me already?
Yamauchi: I totally understand that because you’re right. To an untrained eye, the distinction between the images that you see on PS3 and PS4 might not be apparent. I think in that respect, video games have really matured. From here on, what’s going to be demanded of video games is an evolution that isn’t just about looking better or moving faster.

GamesBeat: [Gran Turismo 5] was very robust. It probably had the biggest scope of any of the GT games. Where do you go from there? What can you add to GT6 to give fans more?
Yamauchi: You’re right. GT5 was a huge game. At the same time, it was kind of bulky and slow as well. That was something I wanted to improve for GT6. I think that if you try out the demo on the show floor, you might realize that right off, going from the top screen to when you’re actually driving a car, there are no loading times. Everything is seamless now. There’s nothing that will stop you in between the scenes when you’re playing the game. The scale might have been great, but we were lacking in response because of the sheer size of the game. In GT6, one of the major objectives was to improve upon that.

GamesBeat: If we could take a broader view for a moment, you’re in a very unique position, having been involved with Sony’s consoles since Sony started making consoles. The series has spanned every one. I was wondering what kinds of things you’ve been able to do with each transition and what you’re looking forward to doing with the next transition. With GT6, you’re building on that speed and efficiency with the PlayStation 3. I’m wondering what else is in store for the next generation.
Yamauchi: Should I start with the first one, then? [Laughs] Back in the days of the PlayStation, the development device was about the size of a refrigerator. I created the first demo on that machine. I did the modeling by myself. I made a demo where an F1 car would drive around an oval track with flat shading — no textures. But the result was really kind of stunning. I never thought that I’d see the day when we could make games with 3D graphics. Of course, back then, I used to tinker with PCs and make games there as well, but I never thought there would come a day when these 3D models could run at 30 frames per second. That was a major surprise for me, when the first PlayStation came out.
When the [PlayStation 2] came out, one unique characteristic of that system was that the screen fill rate was very fast. Even looking back now, it’s very fast. In some cases, it’s faster than the PS3. There, we were able to use a lot of textures. It was able to do that read-modify-write, where it reads the screen, you take the screenshot, and you modify it and send it back. It could do that very quickly.
I don’t know if anybody remembers, but when the PS2 first came out, the first thing I did on that was a demo for the announcement. I showed a demo of GT3 that showed the Seattle course at sunset with the heat rising off the ground and shimmering. You can’t re-create that heat haze effect on the PS3 because the read-modify-write just isn’t as fast as when we were using the PS2. There are things like that. Another reason is because of the transition to full HD.
The PS3 was a combination of a poor GPU with an SPU that’s really fast if you use it right. It’s not a very well-balanced machine. It’s hard to use the hardware properly. That’s one reason why it took us five years to develop GT5. Using the SPU properly, though, that in itself is really interesting. On the PS3, in the demo, we showed the adaptive tessellation. That’s the kind of technology that you normally wouldn’t be able to do unless you were on the PS4-generation of machines. When you optimize the use of the SPU properly, you can do that even on the PS3.
That leads into how we work on the PS4. The PS4 isn’t as off-balance as the PS3 was. If you look at the market right now, Gran Turismo is one of the only games on the PS3 that does 1080p at 60 frames per second. It was really difficult to achieve that. On the PS4, the lowest common denominator is going to be boosted. Most games will be able to do 1080p at 60 frames per second. That’s the real good part about the PS4.

GamesBeat: You became a race driver yourself. How has that helped you make your games better?
Yamauchi: It was a surprise to me, too, but we can take the car to places like Yokohama Tires or KW Suspension and do bench tests on them. Then we take the car out to the track and do our driving tests. The cars are just packed with sensors when we’re doing this. That model that’s created from that data, I actually drive it in Gran Turismo 6. Having that triangle, going from the bench test to a test drive to a drive in the game, the simulation test — that loop is really interesting to follow. In the loop of that process, we learned a lot of different things.
In this year’s qualifying for the 24 Hours of the Nürburgring, the Nissan GT-R GT3 that we were driving caught some air. It went quite a distance up off the track. It looked so dangerous that they were showing the video on loop for a while here internally. At the same time, in the pit lounge above the pits, we had a simulator there. We entered all the data from the car in that simulator, and when we set the car to exactly where it was going on the track, it did the exact same thing at the exact same spot in Gran Turismo. We were able to adjust the front ride height and the rear wing so it doesn’t do that anymore. I never would have imagined that a day would come when we could do something like that. It was a very dangerous moment in time, but at the same time, it was an interesting discovery for us.

GamesBeat: How many races have you competed in so far?
Yamauchi: I started racing about five years ago. Since then, I’ve run in about five or six races a year. I haven’t driven all that much.

GamesBeat: It’s a lot more than me. [Laughter]
Yamauchi: Here’s that picture from the Nürburgring. That’s the real car, wheelie-ing over a section called the Flugplatz. It’s one of the first spots where people are liable to jump on the course because of the way the track comes up before it and comes back down. The car came off the ground and kept doing the wheelie there for about 15 meters before it came back down.

GamesBeat: How fast were you going?
Yamauchi: About 230 kilometers per hour, I think? It was about 5 degrees up off the ground.

GamesBeat: The reason you were able to do that is because you’ve gotten very good at physics simulation within the engine, then?
Yamauchi: It’s true. Physics is something where you can’t just aim for it and come up with results. It’s really a lot of trial and error most of the time.

GamesBeat: Thinking forward, so many games have online interactions, but at least for me, GT has been a very single-player-focused experience. How important is online play for you moving forward?
Yamauchi: Online play is a feature that all games are going to have automatically now. Of course, Gran Turismo is going to have that as a feature. But when you think about it, what’s really important to a Real Driving Simulator isn’t that kind of competition. Online features are something that we have to have, but that’s not going to be the part of the game that will be the deciding factor for most people. The basic simulation is still the core of the game.

GamesBeat: I wonder what players will notice that will feel differently about Gran Turismo 6 as opposed to the last game. Is there a specific thing that you think people will latch on to, and why is that important?
Yamauchi: We’ve done things like relieving the stress of the menus and transitions, making it faster with things like that. But what I want people to be drawn to in GT6 is really the feeling of driving in the game. That’s what impresses me the most when I’m playing GT6 in the middle of testing out the system.

GamesBeat: All I can say is that if you make GT6 too good, maybe nobody will buy a PlayStation 4.
Yamauchi: Once everyone has played out GT6 on the PS3, we are thinking about a PS4 game. When that comes out, we’ll be testing the limits of the PS4, just like in this version we’re releasing now. We’ve really pushed the limits of the PS3 as far as it can go.

bump

I liked this interview too.

Just realized that the quotes on this page ARE from this interview. Ah well, some people don't go back to other pages.

 

[maxpontiac]

That interview was pretty pointless btw, no point posting that lol.

I disagree. 👎 That interview did something right and that's highlight how much technical growth PDI has experienced with the suspension and tire partnerships.

How can anyone not be excited about that?

 

[sems4arsenal]

It's surprising Kaz is talking about this 👍 but the facts aren't new .

Yeah ,I think the main point is that they know how important it is to us.When the first questions asked by the creator of the biggest fan site then they would figure out the sound and A.I are a must to get right 👍

 

[Conquerer]

I'm thinking that GT6 will be out for a good two years. In that timeframe, I'd expect PD to have accomplished enough work on the PS4 version that it be a whole new Gran Turismo, and thus labeled GT7.

GT5 took almost six years to come out on a new console after GT4 came out, and GT6 will have taken three years as the second game on the same console. What makes you suddenly think a jump to a newer console will take even less time than GT5-GT6? On PS4 cars and tracks will ideally take even longer to model, and furthermore, jumping to a new console means starting from scratch for the most part, even if they carry over assets like cars and maybe tracks (which will certainly need some additional work done on them).

GT1 --> GT2 = 2 years (same console)
GT2 --> GT3 = <1.5 years (new console)
GT3 --> GT4 = <4 years (same console)
GT4 --> GT5 = <6 years (new console)
GT5 --> GT6 = 3 years (same console)

GT6 --> GT7 = Realistically anywhere from 3-6 years (new console)

I'd say three years would be an optimistic approach -- not unrealistic, mind you, but at the lower end of the time scale IMO. 2 years is just... not enough time. Of course PD would like to get a new GT game out on the PS4 early but it's just not realistic. Unless they go the Prologue route, but even then, GT5 Prologue came three years after GT4...

 

[dr_slump]

Nascar?

Noooooo

...

Either GT5 or GT3 is the exception in that "chart".

 

[GTPorsche]

GT5 is the exception. As Kaz said in the interview, the PS3 is a difficult machine to learn to develop on.

 

[dr_slump]

I think one of the main reasons why GT for PS4 won't take that long is the fact that they already modeled a big part of the cars and new tracks at such a high level, so that they're already good enough for next gen.
That stuff takes a long time to make.

 

[Griffith500]

The original game took five to six years. GT3 is the exception on account of it being developed alongside GT2. GT6 on PS4 could do the same.

 

[another_jakhole]

The original game took five to six years. GT3 is the exception on account of it being developed alongside GT2. GT6 on PS4 could do the same.

It will likely be easier in a sense and the end result better with more content all around.

The development for GT3 - late 2001 release date - began one year before GT2 released in mid-1999.

Considering hardware evolution nowadays, PD should have a step up this time around. In what aspect(s)? Who knows? You'll have to read into the interviews and at least have some knowledge on current and next generation consoles.

 

[Conquerer]

Either GT5 or GT3 is the exception in that "chart".

GT3 was made over 10 years ago on a much lower resolution console. I included it for the record, but I don't think you can look to it as a possible example of GT7's development at all. Games were much easier to make on PS2 than PS3 and now PS4.

Keep in mind that development becomes an upward trend at least in the world of Gran Turismo, considering the last three major titles (4, 5, 6) had development times of 4, 6, and 3 years, for an average of >4 years. Yes, there's been a downward trend since GT5 but GT6 is on the same console as GT5. GT7 will be a whole new jump.

Cars used to take a week to make on PS1, a month on PS2, and 6 months on PS3. Where does that figure jump to for PS4? Not to mention tracks apparently take up to 1-2 years to complete fully on PS3. Clearly on PS2 it took nowhere near that long.

All I'm saying is that things like cars and tracks will only take longer for PD to create going forward, and with development times increasing greatly since GT3, I really don't think it's realistic to expect a brand new product on PS4 within two years. With a three year gap on the same console, I just don't see how they'll have a new game on new hardware in less than that time.

 

[GTPorsche]

PS4 is x86 architecture, which is the easiest thing to develop on, compared to PS2 and PS3. Car development won't get any longer because they're already at full detail. The newer tracks they have modeled have been at a pretty high detail for the hardware they are on as well.

 

[dr_slump]

I say we'll see a GT title at latest in 2015, wether it is a full game or not.

 

[Conquerer]

PS4 is x86 architecture, which is the easiest thing to develop on, compared to PS2 and PS3. Car development won't get any longer because they're already at full detail. The newer tracks they have modeled have been at a pretty high detail for the hardware they are on as well.

Who's to say cars are already at full detail? Look closely at interiors and you'll find jagged edges and simple looking textures and details. Same thing for up and close details on some cars like headlights and bumper areas (jagged circles and whatnot). The cars do look very good but with the jump to PS4 they will need even more precision modelling.

If you look at FM5's new models you can see the extreme smoothness in the modelling which is higher than GT5/6's state right now -- as it should be since it's on a higher end console. But there's certainly some room to improve.

Also the tracks... I don't know. I think some tracks look fantastic for the most part, but then you have backgrounds like off-track grass, buildings, walls and trees that look like PS2 quality -- clearly not even up to PS3 standards. On track details like pavement, kerbs, barriers, I think they look great, but overall there are definite areas for improvement.

 

[gt5 brad gt5]

GT3 was made over 10 years ago on a much lower resolution console. I included it for the record, but I don't think you can look to it as a possible example of GT7's development at all. Games were much easier to make on PS2 than PS3 and now PS4.

Keep in mind that development becomes an upward trend at least in the world of Gran Turismo, considering the last three major titles (4, 5, 6) had development times of 4, 6, and 3 years, for an average of >4 years. Yes, there's a downward trend since GT5 but GT6 is on the same console as GT5 was. GT7 will be a whole new jump.

Cars used to take a week to make on PS1, a month on PS2, and 6 months on PS3. Where does that figure jump to for PS4? Not to mention tracks apparently take up to 1-2 years to complete fully on PS3. Clearly on PS2 it took nowhere near that long.

All I'm saying is that things like cars and tracks will only take longer for PD to create going forward, and with development times increasing greatly since GT3, I really don't think it's realistic to expect a brand new product on PS4 within two years. With a three year gap on the same console, I just don't see how they'll have a new game on new hardware in less than that time.

I'd surely think that since they started building tracks for GT5 and going forward, they build them to make sure they're next gen ready, then downscale them just like they do with the premium vehicles.

I might be missing the point here but after years of reading about how hard the Cell Processor is to program for, I'd say switching to an x86 architecture would save a massive amount of development time. Now I'm by all means not a programmer so I personally dont know whats involved but I do know that the PS4 architecture is most certainly developer friendly.

However, I do see where you're coming from regarding creating higher quality assets means longer creation times but I don't think GT7 or whatever number they decide to give it will take more than 2-3 years. Yeah they may have to take a car cut, getting rid of standard cars etc, but by then I'm sure they would have a lot of high quality cars to put into their next instalment.

Just some of my thoughts.

Many thanks for reading.

Brad.👍

 

[SlipZtrEm]

It will likely be easier in a sense and the end result better with more content all around.

Considering hardware evolution nowadays, PD should have a step up this time around. In what aspect(s)? Who knows? You'll have to read into the interviews and at least have some knowledge on current and next generation consoles.

Where did you get your dates? GT2 released in the final few weeks of '99 - I remember getting it in that weird limbo week between Christmas and New Years, and no store was sure of when they'd get it. GT3 was early 2001 in Japan and still in the heart of summer over here. I have fond memories of likely being the first in my city to get it... Even before I owned a PS2!

A good interview, and very interesting to see Kaz go into such detail. Surprising, in a good way 👍

 

[another_jakhole]

Where did you get your dates? GT2 released in the final few weeks of '99 - I remember getting it in that weird limbo week between Christmas and New Years, and no store was sure of when they'd get it. GT3 was early 2001 in Japan and still in the heart of summer over here. I have fond memories of likely being the first in my city to get it... Even before I owned a PS2!

A good interview, and very interesting to see Kaz go into such detail. Surprising, in a good way 👍

The development for GT3 - late 2001 release date - began one year before GT2 released in mid-1999.

Whoops. I got it mixed up. Mid-2001 GT3 release and late 1999/early 2000 release for GT2. Crap, I never caught that mistake.

Where did you get your dates? GT2 released in the final few weeks of '99 - I remember getting it in that weird limbo week between Christmas and New Years, and no store was sure of when they'd get it. GT3 was early 2001 in Japan and still in the heart of summer over here. I have fond memories of likely being the first in my city to get it... Even before I owned a PS2!

A good interview, and very interesting to see Kaz go into such detail. Surprising, in a good way 👍

This sounds interesting.
Elaborate?

A good interview, and very interesting to see Kaz go into such detail. Surprising, in a good way 👍

Thank you! Finally someone acknowledges that.

 

[dr_slump]

Who's to say cars are already at full detail? Look closely at interiors and you'll find jagged edges and simple looking textures and details. Same thing for up and close details on some cars like headlights and bumper areas (jagged circles and whatnot). The cars do look very good but with the jump to PS4 they will need even more precision modelling.

The Premiums have jagged egdes in photomode?

 

[another_jakhole]

Who's to say cars are already at full detail? Look closely at interiors and you'll find jagged edges and simple looking textures and details. Same thing for up and close details on some cars like headlights and bumper areas (jagged circles and whatnot). The cars do look very good but with the jump to PS4 they will need even more precision modelling.

The Premiums have jagged egdes in photomode?

Seriously, that's due to the PS3's faults (can't go into detail). It's not as if PD won't be able to fix that.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

My take : GT7 - Holiday 2017 - exactly 36 months after GT6 release. DLC for GT6 might be for only 24 months or so after release, with updates up to 30 months.

 

[another_jakhole]

My take : GT7 - Holiday 2017 - exactly 36 months after GT6 release. DLC for GT6 might be for only 24 months or so after release, with updates up to 30 months.

You're about one year off. GT7 will be out mid-late 2016. After all, my guess was that GT6 would come out this summer to early 2014.

btw, 36 months doesn't equal four years

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

You're about one year off. GT7 will be out mid-late 2016. After all, my guess was that GT6 would come out this summer to early 2014.

btw, 36 months doesn't equal four years

I am counting it from Jan '14 to Dec '17 - 36 months - 3 years, is it correct ? Second GT ( GT8 ) for PS4 would be right on the beginning or end of 2020