GTP Cool Wall: 1988.5-1994 Pontiac Sunbird

[Joey D]

it's a car for people who assume their car is better than other rickety heaps solely because it has a not-very-good V6 under the hood.

Don't forget it's a car for closeted Bronies too!

 

[Tornado]

Its a well-known fact that all J-Body cars are outrageously uncool. Easily some of the worst, hopeless, utterly nonsensical vehicles that have ever put their four wheels on our increasingly depressed Earth.

A runner up would be "Every Seville but the First One and the Last One."

 

[Slash]

A runner up would be "Every Seville but the First One and the Last One."

 

[Tornado]

The sporty part about that is that the rear brakes would take a couple seconds more to lock up and spin the whole car out. And then it would break down, possibly as a result of fire.

 

[a6m5]

Cavalier.


Shut up, you know I'm right

That was the Chevy version of this car I've driven once. As soon as you sit in one, you start to wonder if the car was actually designed by a professional automaker. I generally have affection toward some of the garbage GM designed in the 80's, but even I had to vote this seriously uncool. It's bad. 👎

 

[Slash]

The sporty part about that is that the rear brakes would take a couple seconds more to lock up and spin the whole car out. And then it would break down, possibly as a result of fire.

Fixable in about 20 minutes. All of it.

 

[Tornado]

It took 5 years for GM to fix the Citation's problems. The Cavalier, while crappy, was at least adequate when it was released. There was literally nothing about the J-Bodies that the earlier X-Bodies didn't do worse.

 

[Slash]

It took 5 years for GM to fix the Citation's problems. The Cavalier, while crappy, was at least adequate when it was released. There was literally nothing about the J-Bodies that the earlier X-Bodies didn't do worse.

I find it funny that the company that made it took 5 years to fix it, since it's not exactly a tough car to work on and address it's issues. But then again, at the time, it was a new car so they probably needed time to work out the quirks. If I bought one now, it wouldn't take too long to address it's issues and make it perform better. But the same could be said for any car.

 

[homeforsummer]

In the interests of impartiality I did hop onto Google to see if I could find pictures of nice examples of Europe's contribution to the J-body, the Opel/Vauxhall Cavalier Mk2. Unfortunately none of the best ones had links I could copy here (just the small image below), but for information purposes the Mk2 Cavalier SRi doesn't look too shabby. Never that powerful at 130 hp, but Vauxhall/Opel's 2.0-litre engines were always pretty peppy even so.

 

[Kent]

I thought I wanted to see this thread and vote.
I don't.
Just having it come up will be enough punishment for a certain someone.

That said, if that certain someone continues to talk down on others for the cars they own then I'll have to vote and speak out as an enthusiast.

 

[White & Nerdy]

Also, the other thing is, to maintain correct rankings this car would have to get at least a positive 1.489 despite not actually being very cool, simply because the coolest I4/FWD compact currently on the list has a 1.488. That car was very good at what it did, but it's not what I'd call cool.

 

[JAHHAJ]

Meh.

 

[Jet Badger]

Also, the other thing is, to maintain correct rankings this car would have to get at least a positive 1.489 despite not actually being very cool, simply because the coolest I4/FWD compact currently on the list has a 1.488. That car was very good at what it did, but it's not what I'd call cool.

That's Stalin's attitude. Hooray for democracy.

 

[White & Nerdy]

How so? I never said I was going to arbitrarily put it there. Just that that's technically where it should go based on the rankings of other FWD cars.

 

[Aquarelle]

How so? I never said I was going to arbitrarily put it there. Just that that's technically where it should go based on the rankings of other FWD cars.

In your opinion.

 

[homeforsummer]

How so? I never said I was going to arbitrarily put it there. Just that that's technically where it should go based on the rankings of other FWD cars.

"Technically" where it should go is wherever the number puts it.

 

[Jet Badger]

How so? I never said I was going to arbitrarily put it there. Just that that's technically where it should go based on the rankings of other FWD cars.

Also, the other thing is, to maintain correct rankings this car would have to get at least a positive 1.489 despite not actually being very cool, simply because the coolest I4/FWD compact currently on the list has a 1.488. That car was very good at what it did, but it's not what I'd call cool.

Apparently majority of people disagree with you, sans the Sunbird standing at -1.xxx right now. I think it should be pretty obvious that a car's coolness isn't determined by it's drivetrain and drivetrain only. Personally I don't find it weird at all that everyone thinks that a decent I4 FWD is way cooler than a POS I4 FWD, quite the opposite really. Could you please finally get along with the fact that your subjective opinion is no more of value than anyone else's subjective opinion and stop forcing it on others? It stopped being funny and now it's just tiring.

 

[Kent]

I wasn't going to vote in this thread until I saw that W&N was going to bump its numbers for the sake of abusing what little power has been given to him.

Seriously uncool.
I can explain if required but I'd rather not just sit here and bash on the car (knowing that it's a member's car).

Bottom line:
Homeforsummer is right.
This car should go where the number puts it.

OMG, I thought he was going to place it at .001 in front of the prius to save face, now I see he wants it .001 in front of the highest ranking FF.
There are so many words I'd like to use right now but I'm not going to break AUP.

 

[Aquarelle]

If you can just decide to overrule the voting to put a car where you think it should be then what's the point in even having the wall.

 

[Kent]

How so? I never said I was going to arbitrarily put it there. Just that that's technically where it should go based on the rankings of other FWD cars.

How in the world is that "technically" where it should go?
Technically it should be down near the devlin (as the numbers will show).

More over, how in the world can you think this car is even .001 within the range of that Mini taking the top FWD spot? This car isn't even within 1.000 of the mini. This car will be lucky if it comes within 1 of the mini but even then the chances of it pulling a -0.488 aren't very good.

The best place for this car will be just above the Devlin and just below the Cimmaron.

If you can't handle that then tough luck. Think about it long and hard, especially the next time you're so quick to talk down on other people for the cars they drive.

 

[Blitz24]

How in the world is that "technically" where it should go?
Technically it should be down near the devlin (as the numbers will show).

More over, how in the world can you think this car is even .001 within the range of that Mini taking the top FWD spot? This car isn't even within 1.000 of the mini. This car will be lucky if it comes within 1 of the mini but even then the chances of it pulling a -0.488 aren't very good.

The best place for this car will be just above the Devlin and just below the Cimmaron.

If you can't handle that then tough luck. Think about it long and hard, especially the next time you're so quick to talk down on other people for the cars they drive.

If he can't handle it then he can't run the cool wall because he seems to think only his opinion matters.

 

[White & Nerdy]

Apparently majority of people disagree with you, sans the Sunbird standing at -1.xxx right now. I think it should be pretty obvious that a car's coolness isn't determined by it's drivetrain and drivetrain only. Personally I don't find it weird at all that everyone thinks that a decent I4 FWD is way cooler than a POS I4 FWD, quite the opposite really. Could you please finally get along with the fact that your subjective opinion is no more of value than anyone else's subjective opinion and stop forcing it on others? It stopped being funny and now it's just tiring.

By calling this car an "I4 FWD" you missed at least half the point. The available larger engine, as well as overall "overbuilt" construction, place this car a cut above most of the segment, including that stupid Honda that somehow reached the high side of "meh" despite having a smaller engine with less power and a fairly ugly hatchback body.

If it makes you feel any better I'd say the same thing about the Dodge Shadow. Or even the Ford Tempo, for that matter.

I wasn't going to vote in this thread until I saw that W&N was going to bump its numbers for the sake of abusing what little power has been given to him.

Seriously uncool.
I can explain if required but I'd rather not just sit here and bash on the car (knowing that it's a member's car).

Bottom line:
Homeforsummer is right.
This car should go where the number puts it.

OMG, I thought he was going to place it at .001 in front of the prius to save face, now I see he wants it .001 in front of the highest ranking FF.
There are so many words I'd like to use right now but I'm not going to break AUP.

I never said I was going to bump the numbers. Also, it's the highest ranking I4 FF, not the highest ranking FF period. It just so happens that the highest ranking I4 FF is the highest ranking FF for some reason.

How in the world is that "technically" where it should go?
Technically it should be down near the devlin (as the numbers will show).

More over, how in the world can you think this car is even .001 within the range of that Mini taking the top FWD spot? This car isn't even within 1.000 of the mini. This car will be lucky if it comes within 1 of the mini but even then the chances of it pulling a -0.488 aren't very good.

I understand why the Mini got where it was. It was good at what it did, and it earned a lot of affection for that.

Unfortunately, "what it did" was be an underpowered, cute-looking box. Most of them would struggle to beat a Kei car.

The best place for this car will be just above the Devlin and just below the Cimmaron.

If you can't handle that then tough luck. Think about it long and hard, especially the next time you're so quick to talk down on other people for the cars they drive.

If you're talking about hawkeye here, he was asking if he should buy something different. I told him he should.

 

[Kent]

By calling this car an "I4 FWD" you missed at least half the point. The available larger engine, as well as overall "overbuilt" construction, place this car a cut above most of the segment, including that stupid Honda that somehow reached the high side of "meh" despite having a smaller engine with less power and a fairly ugly hatchback body.

If it makes you feel any better I'd say the same thing about the Dodge Shadow. Or even the Ford Tempo, for that matter.



I never said I was going to bump the numbers. Also, it's the highest ranking I4 FF, not the highest ranking FF period. It just so happens that the highest ranking I4 FF is the highest ranking FF for some reason.



I understand why the Mini got where it was. It was good at what it did, and it earned a lot of affection for that.

Unfortunately, "what it did" was be an underpowered, cute-looking box. Most of them would struggle to beat a Kei car.



If you're talking about hawkeye here, he was asking if he should buy something different. I told him he should.

"Overbuilt"? A cut above the rest?
That's like saying "Dumb and Dumber" was overly sophisticated and a cut above the rest.
And no one cares what you say any more (assuming they ever did), doesn't matter if you'd say that about a Chevy, Honda, or Toyota.

Bumping the Numbers...

Also, the other thing is, to maintain correct rankings this car would have to get at least a positive 1.489 despite not actually being very cool, simply because the coolest I4/FWD compact currently on the list has a 1.488.

IMHO that shows your intention.
If you now feel like the car should fall where the numbers put it and not an arbitrarily decided position based on your own crazy opinion then I'll hold off on petition to have a new member manage the wall.

Regarding the Mini...
Are you educated or informed at all?
The Mini destroys your Sun-w/e in every... EVERY possible performance category. Most of them are peppy, some are borderline quick. All of them have near razor sharp handling.
Something tells me you've never driven one and probably never even seen one from the inside besides internet searches for the guess my shifter thread.
The car in this thread is no where near as cool as the Mini. If we were to make a continuum of FF coolness I'd have to make that line the size of the observable universe so I could create an appropriate distance in light years to show the proportional coolness that a Mini displays over the Sunbird.

Regarding Hawkeye...
You acted like a jerk.
You went into that thread, told him horrible advice because driving a Camry didn't fit the enthusiast lifestyle. Then proceeded to talk down on his car and him... AND HIM!
You had no right to talk down on him as an enthusiast because of the Camry.
More over, you went so far as to compare the situation to yourself acting like the under-powered, FF, slushbox, of ugly American fail was even close to worthy of mention in a thread about enthusiasm.

I've held back regarding your replies and bad attitude so many times.
No more.
Your attitude towards other people and the cars other people drive makes me sick.

 

[Aquarelle]

W&N If you overrule the voting to put your car where you feel it should go I will be boycotting the cool wall until someone impartial has been put in charge.

This is absolutely despicable and behaviour I never would have expected you to stoop to.

 

[Bopop4]

This is absolutely despicable and behaviour I never would have expected you to stoop to.

I expected it at some point.

And if he does change then a mod can just put it back to normal.


Oh, and if a Mini can beat a 302 Mustang, of the same era, that screws with your "speed" rating. Eh?

EH?

EH?

 

[White & Nerdy]

"Overbuilt"? A cut above the rest?
That's like saying "Dumb and Dumber" was overly sophisticated and a cut above the rest.
And no one cares what you say any more (assuming they ever did), doesn't matter if you'd say that about a Chevy, Honda, or Toyota.

Bumping the Numbers...

IMHO that shows your intention.
If you now feel like the car should fall where the numbers put it and not an arbitrarily decided position based on your own crazy opinion then I'll hold off on petition to have a new member manage the wall.

It will fall where the numbers put it. It's probably getting a fairly honest rating, but a lot of other cars that don't belong above it are there anyway. That's what I'm getting at. Never said I was going to change any of the rankings.

Regarding the Mini...
Are you educated or informed at all?
The Mini destroys your Sun-w/e in every... EVERY possible performance category. Most of them are peppy, some are borderline quick. All of them have near razor sharp handling.
Something tells me you've never driven one and probably never even seen one from the inside besides internet searches for the guess my shifter thread.
The car in this thread is no where near as cool as the Mini. If we were to make a continuum of FF coolness I'd have to make that line the size of the observable universe so I could create an appropriate distance in light years to show the proportional coolness that a Mini displays over the Sunbird.

As far as I know, none of the pre-BMW models ever came close to 100 HP in production form. I'm sure it has wonderful handling, if you can get it going fast enough to notice.

Regarding Hawkeye...
You acted like a jerk.
You went into that thread, told him horrible advice because driving a Camry didn't fit the enthusiast lifestyle.

When Toyota designs a car, they aren't so much apathetic towards fun as they are outright hostile towards anything resembling fun. The Camry is the penultimate expression of that design philosophy, hence the things I said about it. I hate it not just for what it does, but for what it is.

AND HIM!

Barely if at all. If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, I was stating a fact - he seemed to care more about comfort and whatnot than about a his car's capabilities. My point is, why would you want a boring car, daily driver or not?

More over, you went so far as to compare the situation to yourself acting like the under-powered, FF, slushbox,

I have the sitck.

of ugly American fail was even close to worthy of mention in a thread about enthusiasm.

I used it because it was a convenient example of a more-or-less-opposite design. Toyota, in addition to hating fun, prefers to focus on things like comfort and materials quality first, while GM did the engine first and didn't bother much with the rest.

I expected it at some point.
And if he does change then a mod can just put it back to normal.
Oh, and if a Mini can beat a 302 Mustang, of the same era, that screws with your "speed" rating. Eh?
EH?
EH?

I'm assuming both cars in question have been modified for some type of racing, which sort of ruins the comparison.

 

[Aquarelle]

I'll never, ever understand your passionate hatred of "comfortable, well built cars".

Some people have bad backs, some people have to do long distance driving constantly, some people like quiet engines, some people don't go through corners above the recommended speed.

Does that mean those people don't or can't have fun with a car that does all these things? NO.

More to the point, I'd eat my hat if that Sunbird is some kind of cornering masterpiece, so any comments about comfort become irrelevant because even a Camry with soft suspension has the potential to go into a corner and fang it - just because you've never seen it happen in your secluded part of the world doesn't mean you know everything about every car and every kind of person that might drive them.

I'm not ashamed that I've driven many boring cars like the Bluebird or the Sunny, but not ONCE did I feel like I wasn't having fun even with a slushbox or with clapped out suspension.

Just because people buy what they can afford at the time or what suited their needs when they got it DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T ENJOY DRIVING OR AREN'T ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT CARS.

FUN can be anything, you're just putting down these particular parameters like some sort of distopian future!!

STOP IT.

 

[McLaren]

As far as I know, none of the pre-BMW models ever came close to 100 HP in production form. I'm sure it has wonderful handling, if you can get it going fast enough to notice.

Good enough to win back to back titles in 1964-1965 followed by another in the 1967 Monte Carlo Rally (technically won 1966 as well in 1-2-3 finish).

What has your Sunbird won again?

 

[White & Nerdy]

I don't know, I'd have to find some results sheets from showroom-stock and improved-touring type races in the early- and mid- 1990's. And I'm pretty sure most of those are gone. Rallying & road racing are not mainstream sports here, and GM already had a NASCAR competitor, not that NASCAR is relevant.

 

[Bopop4]

As far as I know, none of the pre-BMW models ever came close to 100 HP in production form. I'm sure it has wonderful handling, if you can get it going fast enough to notice.




I'm assuming both cars in question have been modified for some type of racing, which sort of ruins the comparison.

Weight.

My bike has just a tick over 100hp, yet it accelerates faster than a Lamborghini Reventon.

A Mini with 100hp will accelerate faster than your car ever will.

Yes, bikes again, what ya gonna do about it?

Weight reduction for both cars, which would go favourably for the Mustang.