GTRA | RSeat WSGTC S3 | Main Thread

[Masi_23]

It's for mixed grid races, where the top 7 of each class (500, 300) go into the D1 room, and the bottom 7 of each class go into the D2 room.

Correct. Just to re-iterate it more... 'WSGTC Racing for dummies'

Mixed Class Race Weekend
Each division has 8 GT500 and 8 GT300.
• Division 1: Top 8 Qualifiers from GT500 and GT300.
• Division 2: 9-16 Qualifier from GT500 and GT300.

Same Class Race Weekend
• GT500 Room: All 16 GT500 cars.
• GT300 Room: All 16 GT300 cars.

 

[CSLACR]

Correct. Just to re-iterate it more... 'WSGTC Racing for dummies'

Mixed Class Race Weekend
Each division has 8 GT500 and 8 GT300.
• Division 1: Top 8 Qualifiers from GT500 and GT300.
• Division 2: 9-16 Qualifier from GT500 and GT300.

Same Class Race Weekend
• GT500 Room: All 16 GT500 cars.
• GT300 Room: All 16 GT300 cars.

Didn't know we were doing full 16 grids. Very neat.👍

 

[Masi_23]

👍

I need testers for car homoligation.

PM me if interested.

Open to anyone.

GT300 Testing:
Start all cars at 300hp as baseline. Work from there. Only adjust power - no ballast. Check the current list in the OP - more to be added. Report in this thread after gathering data.

GT500 Testing:
Small tweaks from Season 2. NSX needs to be toned down a bit. I dont have much knowledge in this department since ive only race in GT300. Any proposal? Post here.

EDIT: All Downforce set to max.

 

[CSLACR]

👍

I need testers for car homoligation.

PM me if interested.

Open to anyone.

GT300 Testing:
Start all cars at 300hp as baseline. Work from there. Only adjust power - no ballast. Check the current list in the OP - more to be added. Report in this thread after gathering data.

GT500 Testing:
Small tweaks from Season 2. NSX needs to be toned down a bit. I dont have much knowledge in this department since ive only race in GT300. Any proposal? Post here.

Some of the cars, mainly the SC430's, are about maxed on usable HP as it is, I was thinking of potentially cutting around 10-20 HP from all the cars, and a bit more (around 20) for the NSX's could work.

These are just guesstimations, but essentially I'm thinking we can level the 500 field some by aiming for closer to the 500 mark for the "baseline" cars, being Z, Supra, GTR, SC430, with smaller but more effective boosts on the cornering disability cars.

Those are just my opening thoughts, we still have a decent chunk of time before the season, so I'll see what I can find there.

 

[Masi_23]

Sounds good, Dom 👍

You know those cars more than me. I think slowing down the cars would help the racing overall. By the way i've kept the limit to 15 cars, but theres actually 16 available. Whichever comes in the slowest will be taken off the list.

 

[CSLACR]

Sounds good, Dom 👍

You know those cars more than me. I think slowing down the cars would help the racing overall. By the way i've kept the limit to 15 cars, but theres actually 16 available. Whichever comes in the slowest will be taken off the list.

There's exactly 15 (2 stealth) cars that can be regulated to be equal within reason.

There's 3 cars that cannot. (imo)
Epson NSX
Eneos SC430
Advan Woodone Clarion GTR

Just so you know what to expect.👍

 

[Masi_23]

Just like Season 2?

How about that VLN 24-HR GTR that came with Spec 2.0? Has the ussual GT500 max DF - 35/60.

 

[CSLACR]

Just like Season 2?

How about that VLN 24-HR GTR that came with Spec 2.0? Has the ussual GT500 max DF - 35/60.

I can try, it'll depend on if the weight can come down from 1500KG or not.

 

[Masi_23]

ahh... didn't know it was that heavy. That's just too much IMO.

 

[CSLACR]

ahh... didn't know it was that heavy. That's just too much IMO.

1500 is out of the question, I just haven't checked, it may be able to get a weight reduction, I just wouldn't hold my breath.
If 15 is enough cars for the GT500 season, then we're already covered though, no worries there.👍

 

[IforceV8]

That GT-R cant be reduced in weight.

The GT300 specs from last season seem to be pretty balanced.I did alot of testing last week with all these cars to see how they compared and my lap times were within 1 sec for the entire group.

I played around with the power limiters tonight and found that by reducing the total by 5-6 % depending on the car it would reduce the top speed on the Kemmel straight by 3 mph on average.I took the turbo-1's off the Toyota's and achieved the same drop in speed with a different percentage.I started my top speed runs from the white line that crosses the track at pit exit were Bob gives up control of the car.All runs were done from a standing start.

I didnt have time to run full laps with these new specs as I was focused on top speed reduction.

All percentages based on the previous seasons specs.

RX-7's 06-04 reduced 6%
Arta's 08-03 reduced 5%
Impreza 03 reduced 5%
Impreza 08 reduced 6%
IS350 08 reduced 5%

Celica turbo-1 removed 305 hp 95.0 %
MR-S turbo-1 removed 295 hp 93.7%

 

[Paginas1]

That GT-R cant be reduced in weight.

The GT300 specs from last season seem to be pretty balanced.I did alot of testing last week with all these cars to see how they compared and my lap times were within 1 sec for the entire group.

I played around with the power limiters tonight and found that by reducing the total by 5-6 % depending on the car it would reduce the top speed on the Kemmel straight by 3 mph on average.I took the turbo-1's off the Toyota's and achieved the same drop in speed with a different percentage.I started my top speed runs from the white line that crosses the track at pit exit were Bob gives up control of the car.All runs were done from a standing start.

I didnt have time to run full laps with these new specs as I was focused on top speed reduction.

All percentages based on the previous seasons specs.

RX-7's 06-04 reduced 6%
Arta's 08-03 reduced 5%
Impreza 03 reduced 5%
Impreza 08 reduced 6%
IS350 08 reduced 5%

Celica turbo-1 removed 305 hp 95.0 %
MR-S turbo-1 removed 295 hp 93.7%

wow you've done quite a bit of work. I would like to test these new settings...

I think from last season we found that the impreza 08 seemed to be a little too quite but as its 4wd it had higher tyre wear
also the IS350 seemed to be a little too slow

 

[Masi_23]

@ Iforcev8 - Are those percentages off of the 300hp baseline?

Last season's specs was a bit off for a couple of cars.

The Subies and the IS350 was around 1 to 1.5 seonds off from each other - with the Subies being the faster cars. Did a straight line speed test at S2 specs - Subie (cusco) crossed the line atleast 4-5 mph faster.

I would like everyone to pay closer attention to the lexus as it tends to be the slowest of the bunch (based off of their stock specs - other than from S2 specs). Also, make sure not to add too much power. Try to subtract more than add. We dont want to repeat season 2 where cars reached well over 340+ hp. Maybe we should set a limit? 310? 320? What do you guys think?

 

[twistedfirework]

@ Iforcev8 - Are those percentages off of the 300hp baseline?

Last season's specs was a bit off for a couple of cars.

The Subies and the IS350 was around 1 to 1.5 seonds off from each other - with the Subies being the faster cars. Did a straight line speed test at S2 specs - Subie (cusco) crossed the line atleast 4-5 mph faster.

I would like everyone to pay closer attention to the lexus as it tends to be the slowest of the bunch (based off of their stock specs - other than from S2 specs). Also, make sure not to add too much power. Try to subtract more than add. We dont want to repeat season 2 where cars reached well over 340+ hp. Maybe we should set a limit? 310? 320? What do you guys think?

This is where I am at.
I have the ammemiya 06 and the garaiya 08 at 300hp no ballast no tuning. All set ups standard. I lap spa at 1:28.6 in both cars with hard tyres. I am now working on getting the Lexus on par. At the mo I have it 1.5 sec slower. I will get it there. If you (Eric) could pick 1 car with a hp value, we can all use that as a base and try to match cars to it. Otherwise we could all be working to different base.

 

[Adam41]

The RX7 and Garaiya stock are at good specs and they are both equal. I don't know why we're moaning that the gt300 cars are too quick. The closing speeds from a NSX on a gt300 car was quite large last season, I know the NSX has been down tuned but still. The RX7 makes 337 bhp stock and the Garaiya 352 bhp so I'm not entirely sure why we're slowing them down.

The Subaru is the fastest yep but it's tyre wear is the worst, by miles. I wouldn't mind dropping the Subaru, but seeing as we're trying to extend the gt300 grid (for reasons I don't know) I would rather it stay. You can either tune the Impreza like I did to be the fastest, but even-ish in the race, or on par in terms of pace and struggle in the race. You can't do 5 laps with a Subaru and immediately cry out there's a 2 second gap between the fastest car and the hardest car to tune, the Lexus.

 

[IforceV8]

@ Iforcev8 - Are those percentages off of the 300hp baseline?

Last season's specs was a bit off for a couple of cars.

The Subies and the IS350 was around 1 to 1.5 seonds off from each other - with the Subies being the faster cars. Did a straight line speed test at S2 specs - Subie (cusco) crossed the line atleast 4-5 mph faster.

I would like everyone to pay closer attention to the lexus as it tends to be the slowest of the bunch (based off of their stock specs - other than from S2 specs). Also, make sure not to add too much power. Try to subtract more than add. We dont want to repeat season 2 where cars reached well over 340+ hp. Maybe we should set a limit? 310? 320? What do you guys think?

Thats strange because when I was doing my testing of the cars in 2.0 spec I found the cars to be very close in top speed.

From my Suzuka 2.0 test,top speed into turn 1

03 Arta 148 mph
08 Impreza 148 mph
03 Impreza 149 mph
IS 350 149 mph
06 RX7 149 mph (not fully broken in)
08 Arta 149 mph (not fully broken in)
Celica 150 mph
04 RX-7 150 mph
MR-S 151 mph

 

[NEPALII]

Just took a look at the regulations of 2008 Super GT and found out that the NSX runs at 1150KG, 50 more than the GTR and Lexus(1100). Here is the link: http://supergt.net/supergt/2008/08regurations/indextc_e.htm Not saying we should add 50KG to the NSX, but can we test it? I just want this to be as close as the real thing.

Edit: I have also taken a look at the Sporting regulations and looked at the Ballast system used:

Race - 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
Weight 50 30 20 10 0 -5 -10 -15 -20

Qualifying - 1st 2nd
10 5

Im a fan of this system, specially with the qualifying ballast. I, personally, think we could just use this system, or very similar to this. I just want to keep this series as close as the real life one

 

[Masi_23]

I proposed that ballast system in the preseason discussion - most disliked it.

I'll have responses for the others in a few minutes.

 

[NEPALII]

Well, I love it. Damn you guys . But at least something similar would be great.

 

[CSLACR]

This is where I am at.
I have the ammemiya 06 and the garaiya 08 at 300hp no ballast no tuning. All set ups standard. I lap spa at 1:28.6 in both cars with hard tyres. I am now working on getting the Lexus on par. At the mo I have it 1.5 sec slower. I will get it there. If you (Eric) could pick 1 car with a hp value, we can all use that as a base and try to match cars to it. Otherwise we could all be working to different base.

Below -V

The RX7 and Garaiya stock are at good specs and they are both equal. I don't know why we're moaning that the gt300 cars are too quick. The closing speeds from a NSX on a gt300 car was quite large last season, I know the NSX has been down tuned but still. The RX7 makes 337 bhp stock and the Garaiya 352 bhp so I'm not entirely sure why we're slowing them down.

The Subaru is the fastest yep but it's tyre wear is the worst, by miles. I wouldn't mind dropping the Subaru, but seeing as we're trying to extend the gt300 grid (for reasons I don't know) I would rather it stay. You can either tune the Impreza like I did to be the fastest, but even-ish in the race, or on par in terms of pace and struggle in the race. You can't do 5 laps with a Subaru and immediately cry out there's a 2 second gap between the fastest car and the hardest car to tune, the Lexus.

Tire wear is the most difficult thing to factor in. You need to make sure you look at full race lengths on different tracks, and see if the extra wear adds pit stops, and if so, by how much.
What I mean is, for example, Adam might be able to pull a 1 stopper in most cars, but needs a 2 stopper in the Subaru. Driver "B" might need 2 stops for all the cars, but still able to finish with only 2 stops in the Subaru. Driver "C" may need 2 stops in most cars, 3 stops in the Subaru. My advice would be to aim for the middle.

Certainly a car that wears tires quicker needs a speed advantage though, so it's a tricky balance.
If a single car is really sticking out as an oddball, it might be best to discard it in search of something that fits the bill better.

Just took a look at the regulations of 2008 Super GT and found out that the NSX runs at 1150KG, 50 more than the GTR and Lexus(1100). Here is the link: http://supergt.net/supergt/2008/08regurations/indextc_e.htm Not saying we should add 50KG to the NSX, but can we test it? I just want this to be as close as the real thing.

I'm with you 100% that real world specs would be awesome. Unfortunately, there's no conceivable way to add weight to the NSX's in GT5 and have them compete.

I'm going to try (and you're very welcome to join me) to make a set of as equal as possible specs for the GT500's that uses no ballast for any cars at all.

 

[Masi_23]

@ IforceV8 - by S2 i meant season 2. I tested straight line speeds before spec 2.0 came out so they may different.

@ twisted - we can set the IS350 as our yardstick - 300 HP? or more..

@ NEP - we'll keep the weights untouched - for now atleast, As I'd like to have that 200kg limit for sucess ballast.

@ Aderrrm - we're slowing them down so we can easily homologize the other cars. You can make an argument about the tirewear during a race - qualy meanwhile is a different story. And as said before, in the preseason discussion thread, GT300 is being difersified to attract more drivers as it was lacking in season 2. Maybe a different story now with the sponsor (and most of the veterans jumping the GT300 bandwagon), but id still like to add variety. If we can't homologize any of the LM cars, we can utilize an RM/TC car or two and have different colors to stand as separate teams themselves to fill the 15 car list we're aiming for.

@ NEP - i dont see a problem with it at all. People were crying about how much added time it'll take to do PP checks. We can open the case again now - ill say that a discipline lobby (no chatting, just the host) and a competent host will hasten pre-race procedures.

 

[CSLACR]

@ Aderrrm - we're slowing them down so we can easily homologize the other cars. You can make an argument about the tirewear during a race - qualy meanwhile is a different story.

Both should be factored in, both are important.

If you can't get a car to the point where you would be okay with driving it for the competition, it's not good enough.

 

[NEPALII]

Im in favor of having no ballast at all in the cars, that suggestion was outta my head. I saw the 2008 regs and it said NSX's are 1150KG and I thought it would be a good idea to try it out. But no big deal.

Now, as for the ballast added for races and qualy, I would really like something like that. The time it takes to do the checking shouldnt be a problem, just make sure you start doing the PP/weight checks at the right time.

 

[CSLACR]

Im in favor of having no ballast at all in the cars, that suggestion was outta my head. I saw the 2008 regs and it said NSX's are 1150KG and I thought it would be a good idea to try it out. But no big deal.

Now, as for the ballast added for races and qualy, I would really like something like that. The time it takes to do the checking shouldnt be a problem, just make sure you start doing the PP/weight checks at the right time.

My thought is, even with the "simple" ballast version, eventually we'll end up with a bunch of cars with different things to check anyway.

So why not go for the more accurate, complicated system?

 

[twistedfirework]

If the suburu 08 and the Lexus are the problems, why not leave them out. I am sure we can replace them. If we are struggling for cars. Why not have 10 cars with 3 drivers per team again. Looking at the already signed drivers, this championship would be epic. Maybe even 10 veterans could captain each team. The then said veterans could post qually laps. The captain who is quickest gets choice of car. The next 10 fastest qualifiers who opt for gt300 would be split into each team. The fastest1 with the slowest captain. The 2nd fastest with the 9th fastest captain and so on. The next 10 quallifyers would be allocated the same way.
We already would have 8 if the cars discounting the suburu 08 and the Lexus. This could work. This way we can keep last seasons specs. The car s seemed evenly matched. Thoughts?

 

[Andil]

The GT300 field needs a lot of balancing in comparison to Season 2 indeed, good to see some great work on that already. 👍

From the two seasons we've had so far, some obvious things to note:

Season 1; The RX7 and Arta Garaiya were class of the field in Season 1 when we did very little testing, pretty much all cars were stock. The Celica and MR-S could keep up the pace too and were very kind on their tyres, so were very much contenders for race wins time and time again. The IS350 and Imprezas were very slow.

Season 2; we increased the power of the field (Imprezas, Celica and IS350) to make it fair. However imho we did this way too much. The RX7 and Arta cars were imo the slowest in the field for Season 2, which means yes we went too far with power (only just) last season. The fact that Season 1 Pole times were getting destroyed by 1-2 seconds says enough really. The Imprezas were actually no faster down the straight than other cars in the series, I remember the MR-S going 3mph faster down the straight than us guys in the Imprezas at Daytona, without ballast. Acceleration was where the 4WD Impreza (Can't speak for the RWD Impreza as I've not driven it) was gaining on lap time, but tyre wear was terrible. Qualifying pace is one thing, race pace is quite another, so we really have to look at this too rather than looking at one-lap pace to determine the pace of each car. Lots of things to think about!

 

[Masi_23]

@ Twisted - No, the Lexus has a fair amount of grip - just lacks top end speed. I'm sure it can easily be homologized.

I would like to keep all the original cars. We just need to find the right balance between race and qualy with the cusco.

@ Nep - Carrying ballast over to qualy is firmly in the rules already.

Anyway, a system with lower finishers receiving weight deductions would require cars to start with added weight before the season. The game allows 200kg max - we can start at 50kg (-50kg and +150kg max) or 100kg (+-100kg).

@ Andy - I tested the cusco and the is1350: lexus was about 4mph slower (undetermined distance - used track markings). Other cars were slower but only
ranged within 1-2 mph - certainly the 4WD system has something to do with it at launch. These were pre-spec 2.0 btw.

@ everyone - anyone have any suggestions about other cars we can consider adding?

 

[Andil]

I can't remember if it was discussed - are any of the new Touring Cars up to it? I would think the CR-Z would fit the GT300 bill pretty well (probably needs a S3 Turbo or something to get up to power I imagine though, can't remember its specs), but whether it has the downforce to keep up is another matter. I would imagine the Lancer would fit in well too, though I hate that car - Will have a think about it.

 

[Masi_23]

I can't remember if it was discussed - are any of the new Touring Cars up to it? I would think the CR-Z would fit the GT300 bill pretty well (probably needs a S3 Turbo or something to get up to power I imagine though, can't remember its specs), but whether it has the downforce to keep up is another matter. I would imagine the Lancer would fit in well too, though I hate that car - Will have a think about it.

I edited my post btw.

Remy and I tested all of the TC cars.

RX7 - perfect fit but with 100kg ballast 👎
R32, R33, R34 - has similar 35/60 DF but still understeers badly.
Subie/Evo - lacks DF at 15/30
Haven't tested the slower TC's like the CR-Z as you mentioned.

RM cars meanwhile - haven't tested much but the NSX RM's specs look promising.

 

[Litchi]

@ everyone - anyone have any suggestions about other cars we can consider adding?

Heum..not tested yet but....S2000 LM Race Car?

EDIT: and C-WEST RAZO SILVIA '01?