GTRA | RSeat WSGTC S3 | Main Thread

[Andil]

The Silvia is apparently too slow I guess even with max tuning, which is a big shame, I'd love to see that car in the series.

Only cars I can think of:
S2000 LM Race Car: http://www.mygranturismo.net/car_sheet.php?id=331
CR-Z Touring Car: http://www.mygranturismo.net/car_sheet.php?id=1064 (Low weight actually so might be viable if downforce doesn't suck!)
IS200 GT1 Race Car: http://www.mygranturismo.net/car_sheet.php?id=396

We're a bit stuck because the GT300 cars have a lot of downforce, and most other cars around this horsepower level simply don't have anything like as much. I would guess that even the three cars above don't have enough downforce to keep up either.

 

[CSLACR]

I edited my post btw.

Remy and I tested all of the TC cars.

RX7 - perfect fit but with 100kg ballast 👎
R32, R33, R34 - has similar 35/60 DF but still understeers badly.
Subie/Evo - lacks DF at 15/30
Haven't tested the slower TC's like the CR-Z as you mentioned.

RM cars meanwhile - haven't tested much but the NSX RM's specs look promising.

Tuning.
I know not everyone gets into tuning, but if we're taking this seriously (I think many do, I know I do) tuning is part of racing, I'm more then willing to pop tuning advice out left and right.

Anyway, my point is, if a car seems to be working out but under-steers, you gotta tweak it to close to neutral and set it's specs that way.
If you don't tweak all the cars you're testing to your preference, you end up with "tuning wonder cars" that end up being the fastest in the league because eliminating the under-steer might shave 1-2 seconds a lap off.

So if the TC Skyline work, but under-steer badly, switch some stuff around in the suspension, kill the under-steer, set it to spec, and you have a car for the series.👍

The simple way for testing is either raising the front ride height, or raising the front spring rate, pick your poison, either will help remove under-steer.

 

[Masi_23]

@ Litchi - i've proposed all of the fantasy LM cars but they mostly range from 400 to 600hp. They can be downtuned but some of the guys think they can still have a fair amount of advantage with their wide powerband - which i dont fully understand.

If they turn the same lap times in relation to the other GT300 cars at a certain Power Limit, what kind of advantage do they have? Not much of a tuner myself so i would love for someone to do some splainin'

@ CSL about Skyline TCs - come to think of it, i think those cars have standard suspension setups similar to their production car counterparts. I'll have a check if they are.

EDITED

 

[IforceV8]

Some cars that might be suitable additions to GT300.All cars have 35-60 df and weigh between 1050-1175 kg's.Restricted power bands are still reasonable.

JGTC Takata Dome NSX 03
RX-8 LM
NSX LM
ALMS M3 GTR
DTM Opel/Vauxhaul Astra
DTM Audi A4

Others that fit the spec but are lacking in grip etc.
ZO-6 RM
NSX RM
RX-7 LM

 

[CSLACR]

@ Litchi - i've proposed all of the fantasy LM cars but they mostly range from 400 to 600hp. They can be downtuned but some of the guys think they can still have a fair amount of advantage with their wide powerband - which i dont filly understand.

If they turn the same laps at a certain Power Limit, what kind of advantage do they have? Not much of a tuner myself so i would love for someone to do some splainin'

@ CSL about Skyline TCs - come to think of it, i think those cars have standard suspension setups similar to their production car counterparts. I'll have a check if they are.

EDITED

If they run the same lap times, and have reasonably equal tire wear to their competition, there is no advantage.

I haven't really done anything with most of the TC cars, just no matter what the suspension settings are, you can surely dial out most, if not all of the under-steer. (99% of the time, all under-over steer can be dialed out of cars)

 

[Adam41]

I see you want to get 15 different cars, but why not use 7 of them twice? That way the gt300 field still looks like a gt300 field rather it being filled with non-gt300 and dtm cars. The gt300 class wasn't that badly unattractive in season 2, it's just there were a few more (committed) drivers who joined gt500. We already have a load of entries for gt300 and imo adding a few more non gt300 cars isn't going to make people go YAY.

 

[CSLACR]

I see you want to get 15 different cars, but why not use 7 of them twice? That way the gt300 field still looks like a gt300 field rather it being filled with non-gt300 and dtm cars. The gt300 class wasn't that badly unattractive in season 2, it's just there were a few more (committed) drivers who joined gt500. We already have a load of entries for gt300 and imo adding a few more non gt300 cars isn't going to make people go YAY.

I do agree. I would prefer to see 100% SuperGT cars in the WSGTC.

I don't know what all the GT300 cars we have are, so I don't know the limits.
But there are some benefits to a 7 car field with teams of 3-4 drivers, namely, much less testing and car variance.
And then every car in the WSGTC is actually a WSGTC car.

 

[Andil]

Tbh, agree with Adam, but if a car can fit the bill (similar look and feel, similar pace) then it ought to be included too. But I don't think there's really anything other than Super GT or JGTC cars which actually do that.

Just tested those cars I mentioned earlier, and I don't think any of them fit.

The CR-Z is too slow, plain and simple.
The Silvia too is way too slow, even at full tuning it's 4 seconds a lap slower round Nurburgring GP/F in my hands than the Impreza! And that was with some setup work too, but there's no way to find 4 seconds.
The S2000 can do fairly respectable laptimes, but runs a lot more horsepower to do laptimes 1sec slower than the Impreza (I was running at max tuning, around 380bhp, that's a lot more than the 330-340 which most cars run). Seems excessive, and doesn't 'feel' like a Super GT car either, it's way too dancy due to its light weight too.
I didn't bother to test the IS200 GT1 because I'm pretty sure it will be too slow anyway, think we've discovered that in previous tests.

For now, I think we should forget about adding new cars to GT300. We need to balance the ones we have first, that ought to be the priority.

 

[paulmac2k9]

Masi the Subaru TC has 20/50 DF btw ..... still to little though

 

[IforceV8]

This list

JGTC Takata Dome NSX 03
RX-8 LM
NSX LM
ALMS M3 GTR
DTM Opel/Vauxhaul Astra
DTM Audi A4
ZO-6 RM
NSX RM
RX-7 LM

Is now
Takata NSX
M3 GTR
Woodone Supra

The LM/RM cars are all to slick which makes them too fast for all but the MR-S.Of the remaining 3 i think the M3 might be the best fit but i need to go back to Suzuka and run a tire test.

 

[Masi_23]

Fair point as i've mentioned before (Sponsor and most of the veterans jumping the GT300 bandwagon). I'm aware that it'll require more testing, but seeing as we have more than a month and a half until the season starts - it won't hurt trying.

By the way, i won't have any of the DTM cars put into consideration. I prefer the LM cars simply because they're Japanese - although im sure we all know that European privateers are present in real life Super GT - so i wouldn't totally cut out the chance of having a European car if lets say PD releases Lambo/Ferrari TCs

Here's the current list:
Lexus IS350
Subaru Cusco Impreza
Subaru Advan Impreza
Amemiya RX7 '06
Amemiya RX7 '04 (hate the fact that this virtually is exactly the same car as the '06)
Arta Garaiya '08
Arta Garaiya '03
Apex MR-S
Toyota Celica


Possible additions:
RX7 LM Race Car (Similar lap times at around 60-65% Power Limiter)
Lamborghini Diablo - (GT500 JGTC) as homage to JLOC Lamborghini (Similar lap times at around 60-70% Power Limiter)
Acura NSX RM
TBA
TBA
TBA


Out:
DTM's
Lexus IS200
Razzo Silvia



p.s. what does everyone feel about adding some of the old JGTC GT500 cars (like IforceV8 has suggested)?

 

[Paginas1]

does the older gt500 cars have less or more downfore?

I also agree with just keeping the gt300 cars we had last season and work to get them even.

 

[carracerptp]

Sorry, it might be just me but, why don't you use premium GT500 and GT300 cars?
Not many different cars, but it would make everything easier to level out.

 

[doctsuru_69]

I also agree with just keeping the gt300 cars we had last season and work to get them even.

Agree also. 👍

 

[Akmuq]

Just a suggestion to you guys here, but there was a CR-Z planned to be in GT300 next year, and maybe you could work something off the CR-Z TC, although it might be useless information since I think it has an automatic gearbox(Not sure, don't have DLC) Just trying to help.👍

 

[IforceV8]

The M3 handles great,but its lap times at Suzuka are only .5 sec slower than the 06 RX-7 with 2.0 spec power levels.I had the BMW tuned down to 70.7%/328 hp with a top speed of 146 which would make it the slowest car by 2 mph compared to the rest of the 2.0 spec cars.

I also ran some laps in the 06 RX-7 at 92.2% power and my lap times were 2 sec slower vs 100% power.The BMW which was tuned for he same level beat that lap time by 1.4 sec.The rotary really lacks low end power and reducing the power made that even worse.I would consider adding stage 3 engine tune if the hp is restricted to help with low speed exits.

I see that RX-7 LM fitting into the spot of the MR-S as the front runner on all the tracks with long straights and struggling with a lack of downforce.Also does this series really need 3 RX-7's?

The Acura isnt a good RM car.It has no front end grip and only 5 gears.Driving the first sector at Suzuka in it makes me want to get out and walk instead.


The MR-S will never be even with the other cars.Its aero advantage is just to great to overcome.The only way to slow it down is by choking the engine's power away until the car is undriveable.

 

[paulmac2k9]

Oi I drove the MR-S on S2 specs and it was realitivly equal... you dare hurt her you'll have me to answer to

 

[Joshua1994]

What Paginas and Pinoy said. If you exclude the basically identical Arta, Impreza and RX-7, you still have a nice handful of cars, so the grid will easily be full without it being biased as everyone's jumping on the GT300 bandwagon.

IMHO, i'd want to stay away from adding non SGT cars into the list. It's a shame the Silvia can't be worked to be competitive. Lowering the Diablo's power right down may work, but I think it should only be a last resort, as there's already a good selection so far.

Just work on getting all the cars fair now, then idk, maybe add some few at the end, but hopefully that wont be the case.

 

[toyotsupra]

What about the Subaru DLC car going to GT300?

 

[IforceV8]

Here are the specs of 2 cars that are pretty comparable to 2.0 specs.

Woodone Supra-- 548 PP- 319 hp-1100 kg-P/L 61.3%
M3 GTR race car--544 PP- 333 hp-1120 kg-P/L 71.5%

I think the NSX has too much grip and the lap times do confirm this but here are the specs if anybody wants to try it.

Takata NSX 03--533 PP-316 hp-1170 kg--P/L 62.0%


Tha Lambo is 1300kg and would need to by reduced in power to about 55%.The Impreza TC has only 20-50 DF.

 

[CSLACR]

Couple thoughts.
We're lacking GT300 cars, but not GT500 cars, yes?

GT300 cars all have 35/60 downforce.
GT500 cars mostly have 40/65 downforce.

So we take these:
YMS Yellowhat Supra
Bandai Direzza SC430

Both have 35/60 downforce, narrow powerbands (for heavy limiter use) and make less then 500HP stock.

So what about throwing these two wild-child cars that don't fit in easily with GT500 cars and try them out for GT300? Might just make a perfect fit.

On another note, since traction is the big issue with these two, how about trying these for GT300:
Advan Woodone Clarion GTR
Lexus Eneos SC430

Both have traction issues that keep them from competing with the GT500's, but with around 200 less HP, I'm thinking they just might work out there.

Here are the specs of 2 cars that are pretty comparable to 2.0 specs.

Woodone Supra-- 548 PP- 319 hp-1100 kg-P/L 61.3%
M3 GTR race car--544 PP- 333 hp-1120 kg-P/L 71.5%

I think the NSX has too much grip and the lap times do confirm this but here are the specs if anybody wants to try it.

Takata NSX 03--533 PP-316 hp-1170 kg--P/L 62.0%


Tha Lambo is 1300kg and would need to by reduced in power to about 55%.The Impreza TC has only 20-50 DF.

Thos two in bold sound awful to try and homololologize. 1300KG will mean lots of things, namely, it'll have to be much slower in acceleration, or much faster in top speed, not to mention cornering speeds (potentially) and definitely extra tire wear.
20-50 downforce will probably kill any car, but it never hurts to try I guess.

The Acura isnt a good RM car.It has no front end grip and only 5 gears.Driving the first sector at Suzuka in it makes me want to get out and walk instead.

Mind if I sig this? Funny stuff.

 

[paulmac2k9]

I thought the yellow hat could keep up with other gt500s.... so no point to put it in gt300 but the other 3 seems probable

 

[CSLACR]

I thought the yellow hat could keep up with other gt500s.... so no point to put it in gt300 but the other 3 seems probable

The YMS Supra can compete with GT500's, as can the Bandai SC430.
But both are "bad handling cars" in GT500, because both only have 35/60 downforce. Since that's the downforce all the GT300 cars have, they should fit better into the GT300 class then they do in GT500.

Anyway, the reason I suggest it is because it's proving difficult to find cars for GT300, and even without the 4 I suggest, we still have 13 cars for GT500, as opposed to 7 for GT300 I think, which could be jumped up to 9 or 11 if all 4 of the cars I suggested can fit into GT300.

 

[Masi_23]

On the mobile - ill have a proper reply later, but how about some of the old JGTC GT500s?

 

[GV27]

I would love to drive a Ferrari TC car, to be honest... IF that was to happen. I'll accept the organisation's decisions though!

 

[twistedfirework]

I think any car which can't have at least 90% on the power limiter shouldn't be included. I am not a fan of including cars with 50 or 60% power. I would rather include a few cars with less downforce and a tad more power.

 

[Masi_23]

Can you elaborate on the reasoning why? What if said cars (lowered to 60-70% limiter) are turning the same average GT300 lap times? I'm not that big of a tuner.

 

[twistedfirework]

I am not much of a tuner either. I would rather keep it realistic. I don't think it would be right using cars capable of 500bhp and limiting down. They should be in the gt500 series. I like to use cars in their natural field. If you have to only use 60% of a cars power it probably doesn't belong in that class. I don't have any scientific info why it can't be done. It's just how I feel about it. If you don't agree and decide to use them, I will do everything I can to help to make it work. I think last seasons worked pretty well. I know it would be ideal to have 15 different gt300 cars. But if there isn't the cars it would be better to have teams of 3 again and a balanced field. Once again this is only my opinion.

 

[CSLACR]

I think any car which can't have at least 90% on the power limiter shouldn't be included. I am not a fan of including cars with 50 or 60% power. I would rather include a few cars with less downforce and a tad more power.

Just to throw this in there, in my experience, at least 9 times out of 10 less downforce means you need a lot more power.

There is also the possibility to restrict oil changes as well. I know, that sounds debatable, but it's actually quite easy.

If you set the specs and PP up for the cars with heavier power limiter use without an oil change, anyone that does try to cheat and change the oil is going to have less power at that set PP rating.
With the uber powerbands of 60-80% PL, there is never a gain from adding even more to it, anyone that tried to cheat the system would actually end up cheating themselves.

Example:
Car A starts off with 500HP without oil change, 525HP with oil change.
@ 60% limiter, that's 300HP without oil change, and for example I'll dub it 540PP. 540PP at 60% PL = 300HP
Now you change the oil, have 525HP, limit it to the same 540PP (a regulation check), and because you now need to limit it to 56% PL, and your total power is only 294HP.

It's not a huge difference, but using the GT500 cars as an example, it could cut as much as 5% off the PL use. Just a thought.

The simplicity of regulation checks would not be affected one bit. I know sometimes people act like it's a headache to set their car to spec, but FFS, if we can go through 20-30 cars to set up regs, surely each driver can handle the "workload" of remembering their own single cars specs and set them properly. Anything less is an excuse for not giving a damn, period.
Just sayin'.

 

[paulmac2k9]

I just lost all my data so I now need to get all my race cars back.....

Yet my online profile says I've still got everything!?