Is GT6 too easy?

[RacingManiac]

I had a surprisingly challenging and fun time running the Apricot Hill 20min and Suzuka 10 laps....Running basically the same-ish level car as the AI(HSV-010, stock non-special version), and I was basically running at AI's pace but saving tires and was able to work my way to the front near the end of the race. Not too noticeable rubberbanding as the shorter races and they don't drive nearly as dick-ish.

 

[Holty]

It may sound funny but why don't they use the same philosophy as they did on CTR (crash team racing). You can progress through the game and unlock all the cars getting gold, but for those wanting more of a challenge open up a platinum trophy.

Of course this only applies to mission races, licenses etc. The AI is still hideously slow and unrealistic for normal racing, tragic if anything.

 

[Tenacious D]

(extensive explanation)

That is an admirable write up, and I don't have much to address on it save for one or two points. He says prior to a typical essay...

I'm aware that you think that speed is less important than manners

Yes, speed is important, but speed is relative. This is why I have enjoyed every race in GT6 so far, even the dinky compact car races, and the introductory Fitt. This is why I find the bots sufficiently challenging to enjoy racing among them, because I can make them faster or slower than me as I choose, based on the car I select to pit against them.I know what you want the bots to be, hardly a surprise, but we have what we have. Or at least I do.

You should probably note that grouping all PC sims together is a bit unfair, just as grouping all non-GT console games together is a bit unfair. There's a lot of PC sims based on gmotor/ISI stuff, and the behaviours of the AI are largely similar but not entirely the same.

You're being just as unfair judging the bots in GT5 and 6. Besides, my demarcation is fairly stark and sensible. Forza is the one fluke in this, as it has bots which behave much like any simcade or fully arcade racer, while the game is more of a sim. Though the way the Forzas are structured straddles the divide in an odd way, and I doubt any PC sim is going to have bowling challenges in their career as F4 does. Likewise, no PC sim is going to have murderous bots like Forza or NFS, but more orderly ones. Though as you note, they can be stupid in certain ways, such as the GTR bots being incapable of herding through a chicane without turning it into a grinding hell of smashed metal.

And because "the AI are largely similar" in PC sims, regardless of any differences, I don't expect to be amazed in spite of any game I'm presented with. After the harassment from Need For Speed and Forza's bots I've dealt with over the years, and the occasional side panel bump and rear end bash in GT6, PC bots are kind of snoozers for me.

If the player is required to start crippling themselves then any AI becomes acceptable, simply by crippling the player more.

Some of us up the difficulty by nudging virtual little sliders or changing values in a field. Some of us do it by selecting cars of a certain performance range, or tune cars a certain way. As far as I'm concerned, difficulty is difficulty, and this argument has been had a few times already.

For that matter, you're arguing on a philosophical basis. You don't own the game, have played it very little, and you evidently consider Gran Turismo as just one of those diversions available on Playstation as an alternative to Ratchet & Clank or Uncharted. It may or may not be worth a bag of chips to you. It's hard to tell.

To me, Gran Turismo is like winning the lottery, as I said above. It's rather pointless to repeat all the good things it offers me. I don't get any thrill from PC sims, which are essentially made as platforms to support online clubs and leagues, so people can wave virtual trophies and talk about how big their stats are to each other. Cool, so I can occasionally join an online race of people who have tweaked and tuned and mastered the games to the point I'm likely relegated to the bottom third of the pack every race. It's not my idea of fun to find myself in a field of Mike Rotches this close to lapping me all the time. And the bots are polite and boring, and the most interesting thing they might do is move in front of me and block my attempt to pass, or might bump me in a turn. I've seen sim bots fight each other about as much as I have in Prologue, which is rarely.

You'll evidently put up with a certain amount of crud from your PC sims. I'll put up with a certain amount of crud from GT6, and especially GT6, because the physics and car dynamics are up there with the Live For Speeds of the sim world. And GT6's car list stomps every other game in existence, with a nice selection of tracks for them to run around on. The fact that the bots will slow down at the end of a race isn't the end of the world to me, as long as I can stage races that I'm not guaranteed to win. Plus, acting like the game will never change is a little short sighted. This game was built from the ground up for enhancement.

It seems like you guys who like to complain about any number of things - endlessly - are particularly grouchy because we don't hop onto the gripe train. As if we think the game is paaarfect. I encountered I think TWO whole posters who thought GT5 was a 10. I don't know anyone yet who thinks GT6 is flawless. Great, maybe, but not perfect. So take heart, we're almost on the same page.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That is an admirable write up, and I don't have much to address on it save for one or two points. He says prior to a typical essay...

Yes, speed is important, but speed is relative. This is why I have enjoyed every race in GT6 so far, even the dinky compact car races, and the introductory Fitt. This is why I find the bots sufficiently challenging to enjoy racing among them, because I can make them faster or slower than me as I choose, based on the car I select to pit against them.I know what you want the bots to be, hardly a surprise, but we have what we have. Or at least I do.


You're being just as unfair judging the bots in GT5 and 6. Besides, my demarcation is fairly stark and sensible. Forza is the one fluke in this, as it has bots which behave much like any simcade or fully arcade racer, while the game is more of a sim. Though the way the Forzas are structured straddles the divide in an odd way, and I doubt any PC sim is going to have bowling challenges in their career as F4 does. Likewise, no PC sim is going to have murderous bots like Forza or NFS, but more orderly ones. Though as you note, they can be stupid in certain ways, such as the GTR bots being incapable of herding through a chicane without turning it into a grinding hell of smashed metal.

And because "the AI are largely similar" in PC sims, regardless of any differences, I don't expect to be amazed in spite of any game I'm presented with. After the harassment from Need For Speed and Forza's bots I've dealt with over the years, and the occasional side panel bump and rear end bash in GT6, PC bots are kind of snoozers for me.


Some of us up the difficulty by nudging virtual little sliders or changing values in a field. Some of us do it by selecting cars of a certain performance range, or tune cars a certain way. As far as I'm concerned, difficulty is difficulty, and this argument has been had a few times already.

For that matter, you're arguing on a philosophical basis. You don't own the game, have played it very little, and you evidently consider Gran Turismo as just one of those diversions available on Playstation as an alternative to Ratchet & Clank or Uncharted. It may or may not be worth a bag of chips to you. It's hard to tell.

To me, Gran Turismo is like winning the lottery, as I said above. It's rather pointless to repeat all the good things it offers me. I don't get any thrill from PC sims, which are essentially made as platforms to support online clubs and leagues, so people can wave virtual trophies and talk about how big their stats are to each other. Cool, so I can occasionally join an online race of people who have tweaked and tuned and mastered the games to the point I'm likely relegated to the bottom third of the pack every race. It's not my idea of fun to find myself in a field of Mike Rotches this close to lapping me all the time. And the bots are polite and boring, and the most interesting thing they might do is move in front of me and block my attempt to pass, or might bump me in a turn. I've seen sim bots fight each other about as much as I have in Prologue, which is rarely.

You'll evidently put up with a certain amount of crud from your PC sims. I'll put up with a certain amount of crud from GT6, and especially GT6, because the physics and car dynamics are up there with the Live For Speeds of the sim world. And GT6's car list stomps every other game in existence, with a nice selection of tracks for them to run around on. The fact that the bots will slow down at the end of a race isn't the end of the world to me, as long as I can stage races that I'm not guaranteed to win. Plus, acting like the game will never change is a little short sighted. This game was built from the ground up for enhancement.

It seems like you guys who like to complain about any number of things - endlessly - are particularly grouchy because we don't hop onto the gripe train. As if we think the game is paaarfect. I encountered I think TWO whole posters who thought GT5 was a 10. I don't know anyone yet who thinks GT6 is flawless. Great, maybe, but not perfect. So take heart, we're almost on the same page.

The reason you don't understand and like to slag naysayers concerning the GT series has nothing to do with you not hopping onto the grip train and everything to do with you being dismissive about everyone else's concerns about flaws in major and minor portions of the game with a simple wave of the hand and a, "we have what we have" or even better, "The fact that the bots will slow down at the end of a race isn't the end of the world to me".

You mention again that Imari doesn't own the game as a subtle or not so subtle way of slagging his opinion and yet you have the audacity to make the statement above, that, "The fact that the bots will slow down at the end of a race isn't the end of the world to me". That statement alone should disqualify you forever from giving any objective or subjective opinion, feedback or review of any kind about any racing game ever. Anyone that really wants to play a "sim" and have a real racing experience on a piece of software should be properly outraged by seeing cars in front of him slowing down to let him win. If you aren't outraged by that you are just a game player, not sim racer or true racing fan.

And also properly outraged that you have to go down 100 PP and a tire grade or two to have a hot lapping competition [aka race with moving pylons in GT6) where you have a reasonable chance of crossing the finish line around the same time as the rabbit, allowing for his inevitable slowdown if he thinks you might not win.

I'm sure your response will be , "I said it's not the end of the world" and no it's not, and yes you can work around it. But you shouldn't have to. There's more than enough money and resources avaiable to make offline career mode challenging for everyone with something as simple as difficulty sliders that are already in the game. What was included with GT6 is an insult to loyal fans of the offline game and represents in my mind, the most minimal effort possible in that regard. I believe GT sales are finally reflecting that fact although it's still too early to tell for certain.

 

[Imari]

You'll evidently put up with a certain amount of crud from your PC sims. I'll put up with a certain amount of crud from GT6, and especially GT6, because the physics and car dynamics are up there with the Live For Speeds of the sim world. And GT6's car list stomps every other game in existence, with a nice selection of tracks for them to run around on. The fact that the bots will slow down at the end of a race isn't the end of the world to me, as long as I can stage races that I'm not guaranteed to win. Plus, acting like the game will never change is a little short sighted. This game was built from the ground up for enhancement.

The whole point of the thread is "is GT6 too easy". Not "GT6's car/track list is awesome". Level of content has nothing to do with how easy or hard the game is.

I didn't act like the game won't change, so don't misrepresent my position. I don't expect major change. I don't expect bots that can run 3 seconds a minute from alien pace and attack and defend like a real player. I expect tweaks on what we have now. The bots in GT5 changed, but not in a way that I found to affect the actual difficulty. I expect the same here, for a few reasons.

I expect they could tweak behaviour a little, or at most lock the AI into "fast" rubberband mode. They could put a difficulty slider in, but it would be a radical departure from their demonstrated philosophy so far so I'm not getting my hopes up.

It seems like you guys who like to complain about any number of things - endlessly - are particularly grouchy because we don't hop onto the gripe train. As if we think the game is paaarfect. I encountered I think TWO whole posters who thought GT5 was a 10. I don't know anyone yet who thinks GT6 is flawless. Great, maybe, but not perfect. So take heart, we're almost on the same page.

Point me to where I said anything of the sort. Or are you just reading what you want to read and putting words in my mouth?

Yes, speed is important, but speed is relative. This is why I have enjoyed every race in GT6 so far, even the dinky compact car races, and the introductory Fitt. This is why I find the bots sufficiently challenging to enjoy racing among them, because I can make them faster or slower than me as I choose, based on the car I select to pit against them.I know what you want the bots to be, hardly a surprise, but we have what we have. Or at least I do.

I had dedicated at least part of that wall of text to explaining why I think the bots need to be competitive in equal machinery. Handicaps exist in games like golf to allow people of unequal skill to at least attempt to compete and have good time, but it's at best a crutch for the fact that one player is far, far worse.

The fact that you need to do this to enjoy yourself means that yes, GT6 is too easy. You can't say "those fourth graders are some real tough competition in the 100m sprint, but I had to tie my legs together to make it close". That's not true competition, that's two entirely different races that happen to have similar finishing times.

I've explained before, although possibly not to you, that a good race is not defined by finishing a small amount of time ahead of the other cars, it's defined by what happens on track. Mission 34 is a great example. It's bloody hard, by virtue of you starting so far behind the other cars. It's not good racing though, you're only fighting yourself and the track. If you catch an opponent, you're guaranteed to get past them.

True racing involves racecraft and an appreciation of the other driver. If you're not having to size them up, find a gap and make it stick, it's not racing. And if they're not defending, going two wide and attempting to come back at you it's not racing either. You're just seeing who can post the target lap time.

You don't own the game

Here we go again. Run out of legitimate discussion points and you'll keep coming back to this like it actually matters.

Play the ball, not the man for crying out loud.

 

[Soundtrack]

What was included with GT6 is an insult to loyal fans of the offline game and represents in my mind, the most minimal effort possible in that regard. I believe GT sales are finally reflecting that fact although it's still too early to tell for certain.

Shouldn't we wait for the coming Community tools to reveal their options before we consider PD is insulting their customers? From my very selfish point of view GT has removed (for now) what I considered an offline “racing challenge” with one make/length/ballast adjusted/ arcade races. The only reason I can see this option missing at this point, is the PD will to have them better integrated, eventually at A-Spec level with added adjustability.

Some of the game upgrades may end up being "buying decision factors" for the more cautious/disappointed franchise's fans...

 

[Imari]

Shouldn't we wait for the coming Community tools to reveal their options before we consider PD is insulting their customers? From my very selfish point of view GT has removed (for now) what I considered an offline “racing challenge” with one make/length/ballast adjusted/ arcade races. The only reason I can see this option missing at this point, is the PD will to have them better integrated, eventually at A-Spec level with added adjustability.

Some of the game upgrades may end up being "buying decision factors" for the more cautious/disappointed franchise's fans...

You can adjust that to "insulting their early purchasing customers" if you want, but the effect is the same.

Regardless of what is to come down the track, we can only judge GT6 by what we have in front of us right now. In a year I expect it to be a bit like comparing GT5 1.01 with GT5 2.0, a fairly substantially different game. But for now, they're selling it and should be judged on the current state of the game.

 

[Soundtrack]

A game that wasn't delayed, and will receive a major update in January...

As a day one customer, I didn't felt insulted neither.

 

[bombjacked]

Whether the game is too easy or not is always going to be down to individual's skill level and is completely subjective. A less subjective question is whether this is easier than previous incarnations.

I have only be playing for about 7 hours and I'm apparently already 25% through the game despite having seasonal events to distract me. I have managed to get gold on all the license tests bar to up to the A license. I'm lazy and use automatic gears and DS3 so it will be more difficult for me to achieve golds than those using manual and wheels. I have definitely found it a little easier to get golds than GT5 but not massively so. Some of this is probably down to my knowledge if how the cars handle in GT5 and the circuits they use. I certainly found Goodwood more challenging at first as I had no previous knowledge of this course.

On balance I think the gold times for tests are slightly easier than previous games. It's almost as if PD have decided to make sure that players using DS3s and automatic gears can also be able to reach golds. In some previous games this was almost not possible on some tests without having the patience of a saint. However, I also think game and course familiarity also plays a small part in making the game feel easier.

Personally I find the tests a small diversion and whilst it is pleasing to get a gold they are now just a barrier to entry for the next class. The difficulty issue with these is hardly a game breaker. What is much more of a concern is the difficulty with the event races which is generally too easy for nearly all events I have played this far and if it is anything like GT5 will only have a couple or so of truly challenging events. All this can be easily be resolved, as suggested by many earlier, to ensure your car is well within PP limit. It's not easy to judge the correct PP as this will be different for different driver skills and also on the AI cars selected but usually 20-25% PP drop adds a little challenge. This method isn't ideal but it's the best solution until PD do something to improve the challenge.

I'm not a fan of the go online argument. It is difficult to find players of a similar difficulty and is prone to rage quitters and people who think nothing of ensuring you need to sort out your car's rigidity. I prefer to play

An even better way would be to allow players to make the game as hard as they like would be to have an event creator. This was mentioned earlier in this thread and is a constructive and thoughtful way of seeing this issue rather than just whinging about the game being too easy. I'm surprised how little attention this thought has got in this thread.

Another and even simpler fix for events, would be for PD to have a difficulty setting that effected non-license events not just the arcade game with it's current difficulty being the base level as the game, in my opinion, doesn't need an option to make it any easier.

 

[stb155]

An even better way would be to allow players to make the game as hard as they like would be to have an event creator. This was mentioned earlier in this thread and is a constructive and thoughtful way of seeing this issue rather than just whinging about the game being too easy. I'm surprised how little attention this thought has got in this thread.

Has been mentioned plenty times and there is also a poll on for it...

Pretty everyone agrees that this would be the easiest "fix" to get some challenging races in career mode.

They could pretty much use the same screen for it as the one you have to create a online race, just add a page where you can select number and cars of opponents, and some options for their behavior would be nice (a switch for "try to win" or "let me win" )

I really hope we get this.

 

[SciroccoRich]

You know, given all my comments about how easy GT6 is (I have mainly meant the AI are too easy - which is still my opinion), but how hard is it to brake into turn 1 on the Daytona Road Course with ABS off?! Cannot do that corner for the life of me.

 

[croozer_63]

In my opinion, yes, GT6 is super easy and seems to be geared toward the casual/lesser skilled player. Nothing wrong with that I guess, but I was just expecting a bit more after some of the harder challenges/license tests in GT5. I remember spending days, sometimes weeks just to beat some of the license tests/ challenges in GT5. Now, with GT6, after playing it for 3 weeks and I've already got Platinum, yea, I would say things are extremely easier. There is no way I have improved that much as a driver to be able to run through the game like that. But, after having said all this, it really doesn't bother me all that much because about 99% of my time is dedicated to the WRS and Seasonal TT's anyway.....that's where the fun and challenges are for me. I'm sure other's will have a different opinion and outlook of the game and that is fine and I respect that, but the question was asked, so I gave you my view.

There is no doubt that the races are easier than GT5. Having said that, I will venture that, yes, you probably have matured that much as a driver. My case in point. I have only been playing for just over a year. When I first got GT5, I found some of the races, and most of the seasonals a real challenge. Example, the Lambos at Tokyo and the SS5 Civics. When I first did those, I must have tried 100 times each till I golded. All the lobby races and seasonals where eventually golded. I eventually got bored with just the TT to do, so registered another player and started again. The difference was incredible. Everything that seemed so hard the first time was a breeze. Tokyo, SS5 and London Nascars were all golded first go. So, IMHO, GT6, seems a breeze to experience players, whilst newbies or less accomplished racers would still find it challenging. As others have said, lower the PP, use lower tyres and try again, Im sure there's a challenge in there somewhere. I also would gaurantee that there are some ultra challenging seasonals heading our way in the future. Cheers and stay fast...

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

There is no doubt that the races are easier than GT5. Having said that, I will venture that, yes, you probably have matured that much as a driver. My case in point. I have only been playing for just over a year. When I first got GT5, I found some of the races, and most of the seasonals a real challenge. Example, the Lambos at Tokyo and the SS5 Civics. When I first did those, I must have tried 100 times each till I golded. All the lobby races and seasonals where eventually golded. I eventually got bored with just the TT to do, so registered another player and started again. The difference was incredible. Everything that seemed so hard the first time was a breeze. Tokyo, SS5 and London Nascars were all golded first go. So, IMHO, GT6, seems a breeze to experience players, whilst newbies or less accomplished racers would still find it challenging. As others have said, lower the PP, use lower tyres and try again, Im sure there's a challenge in there somewhere. I also would gaurantee that there are some ultra challenging seasonals heading our way in the future. Cheers and stay fast...

Yes, I'll agree, I have improved as a player but, like I said, not to the extent that I should have been able to breeze through the license tests like I did. Make no mistake about it, as far as the license tests go, the game is indeed easier. And as far as the other parts of the game go where you can make things harder for yourself, I already know all about how to go about doing that and that is in fact what I did when completing those events. As a whole though, my opinion still stands, GT6 is a ton easier than 5. It took me over a year to Platinum 5 as compared to 3 weeks for 6. That right there should tell you something.

 

[SnakeOfBacon]

It took me over a year to Platinum 5 as compared to 3 weeks for 6. That right there should tell you something.

If the GT5 Platinum didn't require you to get gold in every special event, grind b-spec for a few hundred hours, and collect 1000 cars it probably would have also taken you 3 weeks

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

If the GT5 Platinum didn't require you to get gold in every special event, grind b-spec for a few hundred hours, and collect 1000 cars it probably would have also taken you 3 weeks

While partially true, the difficulty factor in GT5 definitely played a big part in why it took so long. I remember spending 3 weeks, or more, in just trying to gold a few of the license tests themselves in GT5. So, just comparing the license tests alone, GT5 was definitely harder. The license tests in GT6 are ridiculously easy as far as I'm concerned. About 90% of them, I golded the very first try. The other 10% took anywhere from 2-4 tries. Now that's a big difference from GT5 and like I said before, I no doubt have improved my skill set, but not that drastically.

 

[nib95]

While partially true, the difficulty factor in GT5 definitely played a big part in why it took so long. I remember spending 3 weeks, or more, in just trying to gold a few of the license tests themselves in GT5. So, just comparing the license tests alone, GT5 was definitely harder. The license tests in GT6 are ridiculously easy as far as I'm concerned. About 90% of them, I golded the very first try. The other 10% took anywhere from 2-4 tries. Now that's a big difference from GT5 and like I said before, I no doubt have improved my skill set, but not that drastically.

Are you racing or doing these License tests with the HUD and Driving Line on? How about assists?

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Are you racing or doing these License tests with the HUD and Driving Line on? How about assists?

No assists, other than ABS1, just like I did in GT5. And, sometimes I've even turned ABS off as even that seems to be easier than in GT5.

 

[Hyper-Dan]

No assists, other than ABS1, just like I did in GT5. And, sometimes I've even turned ABS off as even that seems to be easier than in GT5.

And SRF

 

[SciroccoRich]

No assists, other than ABS1, just like I did in GT5. And, sometimes I've even turned ABS off as even that seems to be easier than in GT5.

ABS definitely needs looking at. You can stand on your brakes and turn in this - especially with SM tires and above - and you won't lock up or sping at all.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

And SRF

Yea, nothing I can do about that since they insist on locking it on for the license tests. I was answering the question posed to me as in voluntary assists, not ones forced upon me.

 

[synon]

An important point for me is being in equal machinery as well. If the AI can't keep up with the player without an advantage in machinery, it's not good enough. If the player is required to start crippling themselves then any AI becomes acceptable, simply by crippling the player more.

How do you know it is equal equipment? The AI cars could also be handicapped.
Slower AI in superior eqipment is the same as faster AI in inferior equipment.

 

[nib95]

No assists, other than ABS1, just like I did in GT5. And, sometimes I've even turned ABS off as even that seems to be easier than in GT5.

What about driving line or hud? Try with them off. Much more challenging.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

What about driving line or hud? Try with them off. Much more challenging.

Yea, like I told you before, I have never used them. Only assist that I have used/willingly turned on, is ABS 1, and have even turned that off, as I also said before.

 

[TurismoBad]

AI could simply drive through corners faster - they simply programmed them to be slow as 🤬

It's not about processing power - we're not talking "smart overtaking" or actively trying to get behind your car for drafting etc. (all things I want though )

A Land Rover (btw some crazy cornering speed on that thing) simply cannot win with a r33 on Spa - totally off putting.

Super early braking, super slow entry, Sunday Cruising exit - WTH PD ?!

You don't need more cpu to make a car go 20km/h faster through a corner and make them accelerate out of it in correct point with correct amount of throttle - those are simple X here Y there.

"Use a slower car" - no I don't want to use MUCH slower car than AI - I want to use cars in the same class for iconic battles and the game should allow me to do that - that's the point of "Gran Turismo racing" no ?

RX7 VS NSX etc and the game should allow me to setup this type of races.

"Ferrari Challenge" - use a wheelchair because Midget was too quick

 

[machschnel]

Yes, speed is important, but speed is relative. This is why I have enjoyed every race in GT6 so far, even the dinky compact car races, and the introductory Fitt. This is why I find the bots sufficiently challenging to enjoy racing among them, because I can make them faster or slower than me as I choose, based on the car I select to pit against them.

What if I want to race GT500 car's against each other, what car would I pick for a challenge?

What if I want to race Formula GT's against each other, what car would I pick for a challenge?

What if I want to race GT3 car's against each other, what car would I pick for a challenge?


I hope you see were this is going - the inability to race car's of the same class is of serious determent to the game.

I know what you want the bots to be, hardly a surprise, but we have what we have. Or at least I do.

What did you want the bots to be? Did you really want them to slow down for you, rubber band to catch you, brake super early for corners, etc?

 

[Tenacious D]

The reason you don't understand and like to slag naysayers concerning the GT series has nothing to do with you not hopping onto the grip train and everything to do with you being dismissive about everyone else's concerns about flaws in major and minor portions of the game with a simple wave of the hand and a, "we have what we have" or even better, "The fact that the bots will slow down at the end of a race isn't the end of the world to me".

I am dismissive of nothing. You must be skimming because I've said a few times in this and other threads, "Complain away, just don't go nuts and uneven in your arguments."

You mention again that Imari doesn't own the game as a subtle or not so subtle way of slagging his opinion and yet you have the audacity to make the statement above, that, "The fact that the bots will slow down at the end of a race isn't the end of the world to me". That statement alone should disqualify you forever from giving any objective or subjective opinion, feedback or review of any kind about any racing game ever. Anyone that really wants to play a "sim" and have a real racing experience on a piece of software should be properly outraged by seeing cars in front of him slowing down to let him win. If you aren't outraged by that you are just a game player, not sim racer or true racing fan.

And also properly outraged that you have to go down 100 PP and a tire grade or two to have a hot lapping competition [aka race with moving pylons in GT6) where you have a reasonable chance of crossing the finish line around the same time as the rabbit, allowing for his inevitable slowdown if he thinks you might not win.

You're entitled to your opinion, but frankly, I think it's absurd, and a point I'll get to shortly. And by the way, you're ignoring the number of times that people like me, HBR-Roadhog and others have posted that definitely did not win every race.

There's more than enough money and resources avaiable to make offline career mode challenging for everyone with something as simple as difficulty sliders that are already in the game.

That's a fallacious statement too, because as I posted previously, a difficulty slider won't keep the bots from slowing down or make them act like human beings, any more than choosing a lesser car will.

The whole point of the thread is "is GT6 too easy". Not "GT6's car/track list is awesome". Level of content has nothing to do with how easy or hard the game is.

Yes, it does, when there is no other level of difficulty available to you, unless you want to do Arcade racing, which I do sometimes.

I didn't act like the game won't change, so don't misrepresent my position. I don't expect major change. I don't expect bots that can run 3 seconds a minute from alien pace and attack and defend like a real player. I expect tweaks on what we have now. The bots in GT5 changed, but not in a way that I found to affect the actual difficulty. I expect the same here, for a few reasons.

Well, I did find them to affect the actual difficulty. Now, not the overall difficulty, because their challenges and fights to remain ahead of me, admittedly in Arcade Mode and Seasonals in GT5, didn't keep them ahead of me for long. But they definitely did change, they definitely were more advanced, and you'll have to ask someone from PD or SONY why they decided not to add this code to the single player offline game. And why they haven't to the SP part of GT6.

I had dedicated at least part of that wall of text to explaining why I think the bots need to be competitive in equal machinery. Handicaps exist in games like golf to allow people of unequal skill to at least attempt to compete and have good time, but it's at best a crutch for the fact that one player is far, far worse.

The fact that you need to do this to enjoy yourself means that yes, GT6 is too easy. You can't say "those fourth graders are some real tough competition in the 100m sprint, but I had to tie my legs together to make it close". That's not true competition, that's two entirely different races that happen to have similar finishing times.

I've explained before, although possibly not to you, that a good race is not defined by finishing a small amount of time ahead of the other cars, it's defined by what happens on track. Mission 34 is a great example. It's bloody hard, by virtue of you starting so far behind the other cars. It's not good racing though, you're only fighting yourself and the track. If you catch an opponent, you're guaranteed to get past them.

True racing involves racecraft and an appreciation of the other driver. If you're not having to size them up, find a gap and make it stick, it's not racing. And if they're not defending, going two wide and attempting to come back at you it's not racing either. You're just seeing who can post the target lap time.

I guess I haven't explained to you sufficiently either.

Handicapping is handicapping, whether you make the game harder with a little slider, or by choice of cars and equipment. Same thing. I know several of you guys here on the board get a serious case of oh noes at that, but your inability to see that isn't my problem.

Second, you can proclaim the superiority of PC sim bots all you want, but they have never really challenged me, any more than the rabbits in Gran Turismo have. The only racecraft I've ever had to practice against them is to race my butt off and not make mistakes. By your own previous post, you're admitting that the typical racer doesn't challenge you much.

Third, I'm not going to defend against the bots in GT6 being too easy. I've groused a bit about them overbraking in turns, giving up when you get a three-quarter of a second lead or so, and slowing down towards the end. I would rather take a 600-ish PP car to a 600-ish PP event and get a challenge set up properly from the start. But we don't have that.

You guys insist that because of this, the game is broken and not much fun. Or is zilch fun.

My answer to you guys is we're having fun by making it fun, so one of us is just being stubborn about it.

And this is the punchline I should have posted with my original post. So, we have a new Gran Turismo in which the bots kind of fizzle at bad times. It seems like your solution to me is to drop it and play a game I don't want to and don't like. Frankly, I'd rather not. I want to play GT6 for all the reasons I posted before. And my methods don't produce perfect results. Rarely do I fight to the end of a race. But the result WOULD BE the same if GT6 had a difficulty setting, at least with the bots we have now.

To me, a workable solution for the time being. For you, a dealbreaker. So, race whatever you want to.

Sufficiently answered without excess testosterone getting in the way?

What if I want to race GT500 car's against each other, what car would I pick for a challenge?

What if I want to race Formula GT's against each other, what car would I pick for a challenge?

What if I want to race GT3 car's against each other, what car would I pick for a challenge?

I hope you see were this is going - the inability to race car's of the same class is of serious determent to the game.

Except for the Formula GT cars, which I believe have the same specs, there are a variety of GT300 cars, GT500 cars, GT3 cars and so on with various HP and weight figures, giving them different Performance Points to choose from. Pick one of the lowest ones and have at it. That's what I did, though I picked one of the Base Model cars so I could paint it, number it, and have one which was actually mine. And I had good races.

What did you want the bots to be? Did you really want them to slow down for you, rubber band to catch you, brake super early for corners, etc?

Not really.

 

[TenEightyOne]

GT6 is, in relation to itself, very difficult if you set yourself the right challenges.

Is it as difficult as real life? Certainly not, there's a huge amount more grip, the simulation currently has a pretty low frequency and therefore the two aren't really comparable.

You can't say GT6 is easy though

 

[Imari]

Yes, it does, when there is no other level of difficulty available to you, unless you want to do Arcade racing, which I do sometimes.

Explain to me how adding more tracks makes the game harder. How adding more cars makes the game harder.

There's more to do, but it's not any more difficult.

I guess I haven't explained to you sufficiently either.

Handicapping is handicapping, whether you make the game harder with a little slider, or by choice of cars and equipment. Same thing. I know several of you guys here on the board get a serious case of oh noes at that, but your inability to see that isn't my problem.

You still don't seem to understand that there's a qualitative difference between crippling yourself, and playing against an equal opponent. But as far as I can tell, you consider a good race to be one that is close at the finish, so we're not going to agree on this. Am I wrong?

Is Mission 34 in GT4, in your opinion, good racing?

Second, you can proclaim the superiority of PC sim bots all you want, but they have never really challenged me, any more than the rabbits in Gran Turismo have. The only racecraft I've ever had to practice against them is to race my butt off and not make mistakes. By your own previous post, you're admitting that the typical racer doesn't challenge you much.

Sigh.

It's not about PC vs. PS3 vs. X360, and I wish you'd stop trying to make it into that. Some games have better AI than GT6, but I'm not making ANY claim that PC is naturally superior. You're AGAIN putting words in my mouth. You asked for games with good AI, I gave you a couple of examples and they happened to be on PC. End of. Stop reading things that I'm not saying.

For my two cents, I don't see any reason why AI on consoles can't be as capable or more capable than on any other computing platform.

How do you know it is equal equipment? The AI cars could also be handicapped.
Slower AI in superior eqipment is the same as faster AI in inferior equipment.

Er, correct me if I'm wrong but you can see the PP of your opponents...

 

[Johnnypenso]

Handicapping is handicapping, whether you make the game harder with a little slider, or by choice of cars and equipment. Same thing. I know several of you guys here on the board get a serious case of oh noes at that, but your inability to see that isn't my problem.

No, it's not. They are the opposite sides of the same coin. One speeds you up, one speeds up the opponent. Many people will testify that racing in Arcade mode with high difficulty is not the same as racing in Career Mode with a car nerfed 100PP and 2 tire grades down. Again, your inability to see this alone, should disqualify you from ever commenting on anything to do with the racing aspect of the game.

 

[Tenacious D]

Explain to me how adding more tracks makes the game harder. How adding more cars makes the game harder.

I've only said a number of times: it's the cars, the cars.

A range of cars of all kinds of performance, handling, drivetrains, performance bands, upgrade options, race cars of all kinds of performance ranges... cars. Lots of cars, so you can pick and choose your performance poison.

You still don't seem to understand that there's a qualitative difference between crippling yourself, and playing against an equal opponent. But as far as I can tell, you consider a good race to be one that is close at the finish, so we're not going to agree on this. Am I wrong?

No, there is a functional difference. If you make the bots more difficult, you will lose more races. If you leave the bots alone and use lesser cars, you will lose more races. In BOTH scenarios, you are going to find navigating the pack a little more difficult. The race might "feel" different to you if you hamstring yourself a bit, but that to me would be purely psychological.

And there's another thing, a rather significant thing. Until Kaz gives us an update, this is what we're stuck with in Single Player mode in GT6. Arcade is a different story, but it also has fewer cars than the better SP races, and it is nice to make money. As I said before, I have two choices:

• I can enjoy GT6 by working in the challenge myself.
• I can drop GT6 like a democrat fundraiser letter and play games I don't want to, in order to have a challenging racing experience which is less satisfying.

You may not like my choices because I'm choosing a game you don't like, but I'm the one who is doing the playing and the one who matters to me is me.

Is Mission 34 in GT4, in your opinion, good racing?

Thanks for a loaded question.

No, I think most of the GT4 Missions were annoying to dreadful, from what I remember, and are more like torture tests. Do you think License Tests are good racing?

It's not about PC vs. PS3 vs. X360, and I wish you'd stop trying to make it into that. ...You asked for games with good AI, I gave you a couple of examples and they happened to be on PC. End of. Stop reading things that I'm not saying.

Fine, but don't blame me if your examples come from one sector of gaming and you don't clarify. And don't give me grief about it if I'm not impressed by your examples. You find challenge in them - sometimes. I find obstacles that are impediments to a first place finish like just about all racing games with few exceptions. And most of those bots are in Forza and Gran Turismo, one set a little saner than the other.

No, it's not. They are the opposite sides of the same coin. One speeds you up, one speeds up the opponent. Many people will testify that racing in Arcade mode with high difficulty is not the same as racing in Career Mode with a car nerfed 100PP and 2 tire grades down. Again, your inability to see this alone, should disqualify you from ever commenting on anything to do with the racing aspect of the game.

Well, you go right ahead and think so. But since you aren't the determiner of truth in any universe other than your own, and since I'm unaware of any such testimony, pardon me if I seriously don't care what you think.

Now, once again, in case you two missed it, we have a new Gran Turismo in which the bots kind of fizzle at bad times, as I said before. It makes the game less challenging. Some of us, like HBR-Roadhog and myself, have found ways that can keep the fun factor and a measure of challenge there.

Now, others can do that, or play something else, or grouse on message boards all night about it.

Frankly, I'd rather be enjoying myself, but that's just me. Now, I'm done discussing this, so quote me if you want to, but I think I've wasted enough text explaining things as many ways as I can.