Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Famine]

Err, people don't die during the cease fire?

And it seems to be the Palestinian people who want the ceasefire, but Hamas are ignoring it...

 

[zzz_pt]

Err, people don't die during the cease fire?

Hospitals now without electicity probably people will die even in the cease fire. That was a very low move by Israel (not so low as to bomb hospitals).

International community pressing for a cease-fire? Lets bomb their one and only energy source so they can die slowly while we stop shooting bullets and droping bombs for a few hours.

BTW, This night, another school was bombed. 5 children died.

 

[Crispy]

Hospitals now without electicity probably people will die even in the cease fire. That was a very low move by Israel (not so low as to bomb hospitals).

Targeting a nuclear power plant isn't low? Guaranteed death for many people, some of which belong to countries that have absolutely no stake in this conflict. Guaranteed genetic diseased excuses of children for decades to come for Palestinians, Israelis, Egyptians, Jordanians, and any other poor sap who happens to be in the area?

I would definitely hope the hospitals have backup generators like most other hospitals. In fact this seems to indicate they do. Hopefully the $7-10 billion in humanitarian aid that Hamas receives will help purchase more fuel for generators and help get the power plants back and running. But that's just wishful thinking. They'll just purchase more rockets, cause that will help Palestine.

 

[zzz_pt]

Targeting a nuclear power plant isn't low? Guaranteed death for many people, some of which belong to countries that have absolutely no stake in this conflict. Guaranteed genetic diseased excuses of children for decades to come for Palestinians, Israelis, Egyptians, Jordanians, and any other poor sap who happens to be in the area?

I would definitely hope the hospitals have backup generators like most other hospitals. In fact this seems to indicate they do. Hopefully the $7-10 billion in humanitarian aid that Hamas receives will help purchase more fuel for generators and help get the power plants back and running. But that's just wishful thinking. They'll just purchase more rockets, cause that will help Palestine.

Did I say that targeting a nuclear plant is OK? I'm not sure if that attempt or "desire" would ever be acomplished. If a nuclear plant blows up with a ****** rocket (90% of them explode in mid air due to Iron Dome and from the other 10%, a great part doesn't even blow up). There's always that possibility, yes. And that's a stupid and immoral thing to "desire". But how do you respond to it? Doing the same or worse?

For israel to build nuclear plants in the range of hamas' rockets, it's because their confident (maybe because god is on their side...) that nothing will get there. I mean, they're in the middle of a war with almost 50 years.

Hamas wanted to blow up a nuclear reactor yes. Is there any possibility for that to happen? If so, should Israel shut it down to avoid that possibility? It's not a simple thing to do but probably the safest to israeli people.

Fortunately for the IDF (I think...) and unfortunately for the palestinians, Gaza doesn't have any nuclear plant as a source of energy. Would be a great protection... or a giant disgrace, depending if you thing the IDF is "the most moral army in the world" or a group of soldiers that includes a lot of terrorists itself.



Hamas purchase rockets yes but that's not the only thing they buy. For a terrorist organization they spend quite a lot in schools, hospitals, social care, etc. I mean, the party from where 2 Israeli PM came from was a terrorist organization that ONLY cared to kill people to achive their goals (expel the british from their land). One of them later on signed a peace agreement with Egypt. Hamas wants Israel out of palestinian lands as well.

Not to mention the economic blockade or the settlements they've been building for years in land that belongs to palestinians or was literally stolen from them.


Politically this is a mess. But when we look at IDF killing people for no reason, everything we could bring to the table to give Israel a "right to self-defense", goes down the toilet. No one can or should defend this amount of innocent people shot down without mercy... unless people start to be consistent and call it terrorism.

 

[Famine]

No one can or should defend this amount of innocent people shot down without mercy.

You can't defend one innocent person killed without mercy. So why are people forgetting that Hamas are targetting them on purpose?

And targetting a nuclear reactor - which, incidentally, doesn't need to be functioning when hit to cause a regional catastrophe - is absolutely inexcusable. I've seen people wave it away as if it's nothing, suggesting it doesn't matter because Hamas rockets won't really do anything to it anyway - just like I've seen people wave away the entire concept of Hamas targetting civilians because they only have little rockets that don't really kill anyone and oh my God look over there at that big Israeli rocket that killed loads of people, as if it's justifiable for Hamas to aim rockets at nuclear facilities and civilian populations because Israel's rockets are better.

You'd think that if they're worried about running out of weapons, they wouldn't aim them at targets they didn't think they could damage. So aiming them at a nuclear facility thinking they could damage it... that's a literal war crime - and you could add two zeroes to the end of the current death toll if a hit was successful, on both sides and, depending on prevailing winds, in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Turkey, Greece and Cyprus.


But it's okay, because it's not Israel doing it.

 

[FoRiZon]

Yeah like Palestinian authority didnt monitored Hamas. Also considering the length people/group like Mer-C/UN will have knowledge to ensure their aid is going directly to their people and those aids are not weapons.

For the tunnel, its obvious that egypt and other countries are destroying it. Its just a normal borders law. Another country will doing it if they found a secret passageways going to another country.

Also, as far as I know, as far as Hamas can broke their agreement, they would definitely not attacking on Eid Mubarak (which is the 24-ban time). Meh for Israel, they shot nonetheless. Though TBH Hamas is also do the same thing. So my conclusion is there is no point on choosing sides. Id rather see the humanitarian side and Israel in reality is definitely the most ruthless.

 

[zzz_pt]

You can't defend one innocent person killed without mercy. So why are people forgetting that Hamas are targetting them on purpose?

And targetting a nuclear reactor - which, incidentally, doesn't need to be functioning when hit to cause a regional catastrophe - is absolutely inexcusable. I've seen people wave it away as if it's nothing, suggesting it doesn't matter because Hamas rockets won't really do anything to it anyway - just like I've seen people wave away the entire concept of Hamas targetting civilians because they only have little rockets that don't really kill anyone and oh my God look over there at that big Israeli rocket that killed loads of people, as if it's justifiable for Hamas to aim rockets at nuclear facilities and civilian populations because Israel's rockets are better.

You'd think that if they're worried about running out of weapons, they wouldn't aim them at targets they didn't think they could damage. So aiming them at a nuclear facility thinking they could damage it... that's a literal war crime - and you could add two zeroes to the end of the current death toll if a hit was successful, on both sides and, depending on prevailing winds, in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Turkey, Greece and Cyprus.


But it's okay, because it's not Israel doing it.

You still have to find a post where I say that targetting a nuclear reactor is fine. Why can't I defend innocent people killed? If this was the other way arround, I would be defending israeli people.

Hamas doesn't have means to "target" anything (by saying this I'm not saying they wouldn't target if they had the technology). They send rockets to the other side of the wall and yes, that's stupid. Is there any other way to fight agains Israeli army, occupation, economic blockade, and opression? The other option is surrender and obey whatever Israel wants. When a country doesn't have any army or weapons, they have nothing to defend their side in a negotiation. As someone said, "might makes right". If you have a firearm and your enemy has nothing, he will "have to" do whatever you want him to do otherwise he'll die.

But then we call him terrorists and, by default, any argument they could have, legitimate or not, are useless. They just have to give up, surrender and submitt to Israel. Like cattle.

About the nuclear plant, nothing happened, fortunately. Will we continue to bring that story to justify the present situation? We can talk about hypotheticals. Meanwhile, IDF is killing innocent people while blocking them from flee from that "prision".


9 things the Western media isn’t telling you about Israel/Palestine



Also, I get why some people would turn to Israeli side. (not so funny)

Topless Israeli Women Show Support For IDF

https://www.tytnetwork.com/2014/07/29/topless-israeli-women-show-support-idf/

 

[Famine]

You still have to find a post where I say that targetting a nuclear reactor is fine.

You still have to find where I said you said that...

Why can't I defend innocent people killed?

You can. You should be defending them on both sides.

If this was the other way arround, I would be defending israeli people.

It IS the other way around as well.

Hamas are trying to kill Israeli civilians by sending rockets into urban areas as part of their goal to kill as many Israelis of any stripe as possible. One civilian death on either side is unacceptable, whether as uncaring collateral damage (Israel) or as a deliberate act (Hamas).

Hamas doesn't have means to "target" anything (by saying this I'm not saying they wouldn't target if they had the technology).

They don't? Are you suggesting that they're just letting rockets and mortars go up without any idea of where they're heading - even if it's back into their own territory - or do you not think for a fraction of a second that they use simple ballistic trajectory calculations for the unguided mortar and Qassam rockets for intended targets?

Incidentally, they've fired more rockets into Israel in the last month (2,500) than in the entirety of 2008. One of the targets was a nuclear research facility.

They send rockets to the other side of the wall and yes, that's stupid.

It's not stupid. It's terrorism. They're, and I don't know how you're not getting this, trying to kill the civilian population. On purpose. This is their aim.

Is there any other way to fight agains Israeli army, occupation, economic blockade, and opression?

What, than trying to kill as many civilians as possible?

Are you serious?

The other option is surrender and obey whatever Israel wants.

That's what you see as the two options, is it? Kill as many innocent people as you can, or give up?

Wow.

When a country doesn't have any army or weapons, they have nothing to defend their side in a negotiation.

You don't need weapons in a negotiation. Seen any small arms fire at the UN Building recently?

As someone said, "might makes right". If you have a firearm and your enemy has nothing, he will "have to" do whatever you want him to do otherwise he'll die.

And you're looking at the problem as if Israelis and Palestinians are automatically enemies. They aren't. But terrorists who want to kill as many innocent Israelis as they can are the enemies of both - they will not only get Palestinians killed through responses to their terrorist acts, they actually kill their own people who object to them doing so...

But then we call him terrorists and, by default, any argument they could have, legitimate or not, are useless.

Perhaps they should stop targetting civilians if they don't want to be called terrorists.

They just have to give up, surrender and submitt to Israel. Like cattle.

Or, get rid of the terrorists who keep putting them at risk. Then, as a self-determining nation with UN membership, all sorts of other options are left open to them.

Unless you believe that Israel actually wants to wipe out the country it helped create, giving Palestinians that option for the first time in human history...

About the nuclear plant, nothing happened, fortunately. Will we continue to bring that story to justify the present situation?

No, you're not getting it.

Hamas targetting a nuclear facility isn't justification for Israel killing civilians. Nor is Israel killing civilians justification for Hamas targetting a nuclear facility, as the Hamas apologists seem to think.

NEITHER IS JUSTIFIABLE.

 

[zzz_pt]

It's easy for both of us sepaking about this comfortably in our homes with our computers and AC.

If I was born in Gaza:
I'm not so sure where I would be if my family and friends have been wiped out from the face of the earth. I could be doing something for revenge or accepting that situation as "normal" while living in a giant prison, maintained by the people that killed them. In the first situation, I'd be labeled a terrorist, in the second I'd be just another person living in poverty and another number in a sheet.

If I was born in Israel:
I'm not sure where I would be if a member of my family had been killed by a rocket from Hamas. I could do something for revenge and join the IDF or accept the situation as "normal" while living in a rich country that was born itself from terrorism. In the first situation, the nation would be proud of me and I could kill palestinians without being labeled as a terrorist. In the second, I would probably be living a good life while being a number in a sheet.



Yes, I get your point. But Israel didn't gave anything to the palestinians. You're simply wrong. And that is one of your arguments to be more pro-israel (at least is what I get from your position. I can be wrong).
If we go back 100/120 years they weren't enemies. Now they are, generally speaking.

 

[SnakeOfBacon]

Let us all make an agreement to not use the word "terrorist", as it is a poorly defined word with far too many blurred connotations to be thrown around like this.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Let us all make an agreement to not use the word "terrorist", as it is a poorly defined word with far too many blurred connotations to be thrown around like this.

It would also be nice if the pro zio-terror apologists start responding to what is posted instead of screaming Hamas did this and Hamas did that while ignoring the entire post they were responding to. Oh and they also need to stop lying about Palestine.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

It would also be nice if the pro zio-terror start responding to what is posting instead of screaming Hamas did this and Hamas did that while ignoring the entire post they were responding to. Oh and they also need to stop lying about Palestine.

Who exactly? Sorry if people aren't going to post to emotional dramatic images that don't allow rational thought due to the gruesomeness of the violence.

 

[Tornado]

It would also be nice if the pro zio-terror start responding to what is posting instead of screaming Hamas did this and Hamas did that while ignoring the entire post they were responding to. Oh and they also need to stop lying about Palestine.

It would be nice if you had specific examples. Otherwise this post is useless.

 

[Famine]

It's easy for both of us sepaking about this comfortably in our homes with our computers and AC.

Yes it is.

I'm not sure how that changes Hamas's attitude towards the general Israeli population of "kill them all", or Israel's attitude towards the general Palestinian population of "well, if we kill enough of them we'll get the guys with the rockets too" though.

Yes, I get your point. But Israel didn't gave anything to the palestinians. You're simply wrong. And that is one of your arguments to be more pro-israel (at least is what I get from your position. I can be wrong).

No nation of Palestine ever existed. Those who identify as Palestinians were stateless people for the whole of time, with the land they live on occupied by Israelis, British, Ottomans, Crusaders, Egyptians (Mamluk and Fatimid spring to mind), Byzantines, Romans, Macedonians, Babylonians and I'm sure many empires before that.

That changed in a process that started in 1993 and which ended, in 2012, with Israel ceding land within its border to form a self-determining Palestinian state that was recognised as a member of the United Nations in its own right.

Let me know what's "wrong" and "pro-israel" about that - you'll bring up 1948 again and I'll point out that it was the British and the French that screwed them over, not Israel.

I'll remind you that I've condemned the actions of both sides who think it's acceptable to target civilians. I'm about as pro-Israel as I am pro-Hamas.

 

[zzz_pt]

Yes it is.

I'm not sure how that changes Hamas's attitude towards the general Israeli population of "kill them all", or Israel's attitude towards the general Palestinian population of "well, if we kill enough of them we'll get the guys with the rockets too" though.

No nation of Palestine ever existed. Those who identify as Palestinians were stateless people for the whole of time, with the land they live on occupied by Israelis, British, Ottomans, Crusaders, Egyptians (Mamluk and Fatimid spring to mind), Byzantines, Romans, Macedonians, Babylonians and I'm sure many empires before that.

That changed in a process that started in 1993 and which ended, in 2012, with Israel ceding land within its border to form a self-determining Palestinian state that was recognised as a member of the United Nations in its own right.

Let me know what's "wrong" and "pro-israel" about that - you'll bring up 1948 again and I'll point out that it was the British and the French that screwed them over, not Israel.

I'll remind you that I've condemned the actions of both sides who think it's acceptable to target civilians. I'm about as pro-Israel as I am pro-Hamas.

Why don't you say:

I'm not sure how that changes IDF's attitude towards the general palestinian population of "kill them all", or Hamas's attitude towards the general Israeli population of "well, if we kill enough of them we'll get the guys with the rockets too".


Why should they have a nation? Native americans didn't have a "nation". Do we make our judjement of that genocide based on "they didn't have a state, so they didn't have the right to live there"?

The land where they lived was over 96% arab and less than 3% Jewish in the end of the 20th century.

When the state of Israel was declared, 92% of the land inside their territory was owned by palestinian people. But they were forced to live of course. And how can you take from the zionist army the responsability of their actions and blame only the British and the French? I agreed that the British gov' was a huge proponent of the zionist (giving them, not only the infrastructures to have a state but the guns that the jews used to kill and expel the people from their houses and lands).

You say you're as pro-Israel as pro-Hamas but then you picture Israel as the good guy and the one who's being the victim and has to respond to the violence that Hamas or the palestinians started.

 

[Dotini]

The US Congress, sometimes considered bought and paid for by various interest groups, is opposed to a cease fire.
http://news.antiwar.com/2014/07/29/congress-warns-obama-not-to-push-israel-for-ceasefire/

The idea is that wiping out Hamas is justified even if it means killing thousands of civilians. The ends justify the means.

Says Netanyahu, "We’ll do whatever is necessary to achieve our goal”
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/27/israel-resumes-gaza-offensive-after-rocket-attacks/

But if Israel kills thousands of civilians and doesn't wipe out Hamas, then they are in a lose-lose situation. Hence they and their supporters must double down. The 3rd UN school packed with women and kids has been hit by artillery, the (only?) power plant is destroyed, but it's nowhere near enough. It will be interesting to see where they go with this. I'm pretty sure there are extremists in Israel who want to see the Palestinians and all their works reduced to ashes and bulldozed into the Mediterranean Sea.

 

[BobK]

You say you're as pro-Israel as pro-Hamas but then you picture Israel as the good guy and the one who's being the victim and has to respond to the violence that Hamas or the palestinians started.

Let's see here. Hamas and their predecessors (PLO et al) have been murdering Israeli civilians for decades. To me that makes them as much victims as the Palestinians. Where is your outrage over the Israeli civilians murdered by Hamas et al?

Hospitals now without electicity probably people will die even in the cease fire. That was a very low move by Israel (not so low as to bomb hospitals).

So you're fine with the killing to continue because some people probably are going to die anyway, right?

 

[zzz_pt]

Let's see here. Hamas and their predecessors (PLO et al) have been murdering Israeli civilians for decades. To me that makes them as much victims as the Palestinians. Where is your outrage over the Israeli civilians murdered by Hamas et al?

So you're fine with the killing to continue because some people probably are going to die anyway, right?

Yes! I'm fine, obviously. Thank you for finally understanding my point.

______________

Israel has declined al least 2 cease-fires. And 87% of Israeli population doesn't want a cease-fire (of course this isn't 100% accurate, but it's their broad oppinion).

Both sides have declined or infringed cease-fires, unfortunately.


To make my position clear, I'm for saving lives of innocent people and for some reason it looks like a lot more innocent people are dying outside of Israel.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Israel has declined al least 2 cease-fires. And 87% of Israeli population doesn't want a cease-fire (of course this isn't 100% accurate, but it's their broad oppinion).

Both sides have declined or infringed cease-fires, unfortunately.


To make my position clear, I'm for saving lives of innocent people and for some reason it looks like a lot more innocent people are dying outside of Israel.

And it's been explained to you why for the past week, you still don't want to accept it and have basically used angry rhetoric and then skewed views or implication to do this or show a one sided view. If you were really for citizens then why are you telling one side?

Why are you showing blog/diary entries of a Palestinian man and then for the Israeli side of it all just showing an image of an Israeli beach as if it coincides in real time with that Palestinian? When that photo was one from random travel agencies that may not even be based out of Israel. Then come on here and claim you're for the people who are dying more due to various reasons that you keep ignoring well accept for the one where Israel has better weapons. You're fine with touting that.

Also once again most of us if not all of us are arguing for the consistency factor from the hipster psuedo-peace lovers that post one sided on here. We're arguing that you should feel bad for all the losers in this and those are the citizens on both sides that are being either manipulated or pushed into a rage against the other side and thus dying from it.

 

[BobK]

Yes! I'm fine, obviously. Thank you for finally understanding my point.

So if you're fine with the killing, why are you whining so much about it?

 

[zzz_pt]

And it's been explained to you why for the past week, you still don't want to accept it and have basically used angry rhetoric and then skewed views or implication to do this or show a one sided view. If you were really for citizens then why are you telling one side?

Why are you showing blog/diary entries of a Palestinian man and then for the Israeli side of it all just showing an image of an Israeli beach as if it coincides in real time with that Palestinian? When that photo was one from random travel agencies that may not even be based out of Israel. Then come on here and claim you're for the people who are dying more due to various reasons that you keep ignoring well accept for the one where Israel has better weapons. You're fine with touting that.

Also once again most of us if not all of us are arguing for the consistency factor from the hipster psuedo-peace lovers that post one sided on here. We're arguing that you should feel bad for all the losers in this and those are the citizens on both sides that are being either manipulated or pushed into a rage against the other side and thus dying from it.

I'm not using angry rethoric. It's hard for me to see people saying that both sides are equaly victims at this point.

About the beach photo. Yes, it's from a simple google "Tel Aviv" search. It's one of the cities I've been and the beach is quite nice. But if you want real pictures, I can give you. In Israel people are NOT in state of war. They're going with their kids to the garden and to the beach like they're living in Mallorca and by night they climb a hill to see the bombing "fire works".

You really like to label other people that don't have the same oppinion as yours "funny things" don't you? I'll ignore that little point. But yes, I'm one sided at this moment and it's the side of the people of gaza and also people from the west bank that are being tortured everyday.

Oh, poor kids, the israeli people. They are being manipulated. They don't access to the outside world not they have the capability to think for themselves. Witch one are being pushed into a rage agaisnt the other side? The palestinian?

Photograph taken in 26 July in TelAviv. I'm glad they are happy and enjoying life. Don't try to make me think this people are victims (and in mortal danger) as palestinians are right now. You'll only make full of yourself.

So if you're fine with the killing, why are you whining so much about it?

Are you sure you want to argue nonsense? I won't.

BTW, can you give some info about the casualties HAMAS or othe palestinians made in Israeli population throwout the decades?

Don't bring IDF's numbers. They're usually made up.

 

[Famine]

Now show a photo of Ashkelon. And if you want made up numbers, try the Palestinian family that Hamas murdered when they objected to having mortars and anti-tank mines planted in their neighbourhood - and whose deaths they blamed on Israel...

Why don't you say:

I'm not sure how that changes IDF's attitude towards the general palestinian population of "kill them all", or Hamas's attitude towards the general Israeli population of "well, if we kill enough of them we'll get the guys with the rockets too".

Because then you'd post videos of Israeli citizens watching the bombing and cheering, as if it's relevant in any way.

Why should they have a nation?

It's what they wanted. Being a member state of the UN also gives you legal recognition of certain rights.

Native americans didn't have a "nation". Do we make our judjement of that genocide based on "they didn't have a state, so they didn't have the right to live there"?

If you like. I'm not sure why it makes any sense to and it's not really got anything to do with it.

The land where they lived was over 96% arab and less than 3% Jewish in the end of the 20th century.

Okay. So what?

Under what authority was that census taken?

When the state of Israel was declared, 92% of the land inside their territory was owned by palestinian people.

Right. So what?

Under whose authority was that land ownership recognised?

But they were forced to live of course.

Huh?

And how can you take from the zionist army the responsability of their actions and blame only the British and the French? I agreed that the British gov' was a huge proponent of the zionist (giving them, not only the infrastructures to have a state but the guns that the jews used to kill and expel the people from their houses and lands).

You've leaped forwards 30 years in one sentence.

The British took the land from the Ottomans during the First World War. They took it with the help of the ethnic Arabs, with whom they made an agreement to give the land as a self-governing state in exchange for their support.

What they actually did was keep it, with the support of the League of Nations, as the British Mandate of Palestine. This pissed off quite a lot of people, including the small number of resident Jews - who conducted a military insurgency campaign against the British - and an Arab uprising prior to World War 2 against both British rule and Jewish immigration to bolster the Jews' own anti-British campaign.

Eventually Britain withdrew from the region, prompting an immediate invasion from Egypt, Jordan (Transjordan as it was), Iraq and Syria, attacking Jewish settlement, and a counterattack from Israel. After the dust settled, Israel had taken back all of its allocated territory, plus 50% of the allocated Arabic territories leaving only Egypt occupying the Gaza Strip and Jordan occupying the West Bank.

The British didn't support "the zionist army" at all. They were being attacked by them for a decade while trying to fight the fascists in Europe during WW2 who were, ironically, killing Jews in death camps. When the British withdrew, it stopped the hold they had on Jewish immigration - it was British withdrawal that saw huge numbers of Jewish immigrants flood to the Holy Land...

You say you're as pro-Israel as pro-Hamas but then you picture Israel as the good guy and the one who's being the victim

Someone isn't reading. Or they're reading exactly what they want to read.

Read: Both sides are murdering, immoral assholes whose actions cannot be justified.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Yes, and you got to give it to the Israelis, they are a lot better at being murdering immoral assholes. Better guns I suppose.

 

[Lionheart2113]

Read: Both sides are murdering, immoral assholes whose actions cannot be justified.

👍 100% agree. I'm not into the reason why this is going on, so that might make me out of touch with the situation. But whatever happened to basic war rules? Going after and bombing power stations, railroads, main highways, things of that nature in order to cripple your opponent into submission? They are intentionally bombing areas and buildings that they know ordinary people have fled to. That, IMO, is not a war, it's manslaughter.

 

[zzz_pt]

Now show a photo of Ashkelon. And if you want made up numbers, try the Palestinian family that Hamas murdered when they objected to having mortars and anti-tank mines planted in their neighbourhood - and whose deaths they blamed on Israel...Because then you'd post videos of Israeli citizens watching the bombing and cheering, as if it's relevant in any way.It's what they wanted. Being a member state of the UN also gives you legal recognition of certain rights.If you like. I'm not sure why it makes any sense to and it's not really got anything to do with it.Okay. So what?

Under what authority was that census taken?Right. So what?

Under whose authority was that land ownership recognised?Huh?You've leaped forwards 30 years in one sentence.

The British took the land from the Ottomans during the First World War. They took it with the help of the ethnic Arabs, with whom they made an agreement to give the land as a self-governing state in exchange for their support.

What they actually did was keep it, with the support of the League of Nations, as the British Mandate of Palestine. This pissed off quite a lot of people, including the small number of resident Jews - who conducted a military insurgency campaign against the British - and an Arab uprising prior to World War 2 against both British rule and Jewish immigration to bolster the Jews' own anti-British campaign.

Eventually Britain withdrew from the region, prompting an immediate invasion from Egypt, Jordan (Transjordan as it was), Iraq and Syria, attacking Jewish settlement, and a counterattack from Israel. After the dust settled, Israel had taken back all of its allocated territory, plus 50% of the allocated Arabic territories leaving only Egypt occupying the Gaza Strip and Jordan occupying the West Bank.

The British didn't support "the zionist army" at all. They were being attacked by them for a decade while trying to fight the fascists in Europe during WW2 who were, ironically, killing Jews in death camps. When the British withdrew, it stopped the hold they had on Jewish immigration - it was British withdrawal that saw huge numbers of Jewish immigrants flood to the Holy Land...

Someone isn't reading. Or they're reading exactly what they want to read.

Read: Both sides are murdering, immoral assholes whose actions cannot be justified.

Prompting an "immediate" invasion from Egypt?


I leave made up numbers for others, thank you. Nethanyahu is the one giving away schoolarships if young people spread fake numbers and made up propaganda in social media.

They wanted and they signed an agreement (McMahon Hussein) for that purpose. But then they were simply ignored in the entire process and yes, forced to leave all they had.

About the land ownership and the authority. If people who lived in that area recognized the ownership of eachother lands and houses why do you think a gov' would solve a problem that didn't exist. People weren't killing each other for land. That came later with the British and the european jews (who formed the zionist army).

I'm not an historian but I'm aware of what happened in the region.

 

[Famine]

Prompting an "immediate" invasion from Egypt?

You're twenty years out.

I leave made up numbers for others, thank you. Nethanyahu is the one giving away schoolarships if young people spread fake numbers and made up propaganda in social media.

Hamas would, but there aren't any schools left.

They wanted and they signed an agreement (McMahon Hussein) for that purpose. But then they were simply ignored in the entire process and yes, forced to leave all they had.

That's not the case. Just read what I wrote for crying out loud.

The British screwed them over in the 20s, both they AND the Jews rebelled against British occupation in the 30s, the British withdrew in the 40s prompting immediate Arabic invasion the day the Mandate expired (David ben Gurion declared the State of Israel an hour beforehand) followed by an Israeli response that saw them take back the entire territory except Egypt-occupied Gaza Strip and Jordan-occupied West Bank before the 1949 recognition by the League of Nations of the Israeli state as it then was. The 1967 invasion of Egypt was something completely different.

The Brits screwed them and they rebelled along with the Jews (and they fought each other too). Following the Arab invasion of Jewish settlements in the Jewish allocated areas of the original mandate, Israel fought back, took their land back and then took some more too. It was the British screwing them that lead to the whole Jews vs. Arabs situation.

Of course if you scuttle back two thousand years you find a similar situation with Jews leading an uprising against an occupying empire in the exact same territory - though this was the Romans. The siege at Masada is a particular highlight I recall from school.

About the land ownership and the authority. If people who lived in that area recognized the ownership of eachother lands and houses why do you think a gov' would solve a problem that didn't exist.

So to clarify, your answer is "No authority recognised their ownership of the land".

If only they'd had a state and a seat at the League of Nations to protect their citizens' rights. Why did they want to be a self-determining nation? Oh right, that's why...

People weren't killing each other for land. That came later with the British and the european jews (who formed the zionist army).

Unless you count the Ottomans, Crusaders, Egyptians (Mamluk and Fatimid spring to mind), Byzantines, Romans, Macedonians, Babylonians and other previous empires who fought battles over that land.

And of course we don't because they weren't evil Jews, right?

 

[mr_geez]

Prompting an "immediate" invasion from Egypt?

You keep quoting this article even though it is not definitive, few things from top of my head (even mentioned in the comments section of said article).

- closing the straits of Tiran

- General Nasser kicking out UN forces out of Sinai (very weird move if you are afraid of invasion)

- Egypt, Jordan , Syria signing war pact which lead to massive movement of Arabic troops alongside border with Israel

- KGB/GRU intelligence reports suggesting and financing aggressive stance against western backed Israel

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I'm not using angry rethoric. It's hard for me to see people saying that both sides are equaly victims at this point.

About the beach photo. Yes, it's from a simple google "Tel Aviv" search. It's one of the cities I've been and the beach is quite nice. But if you want real pictures, I can give you. In Israel people are NOT in state of war. They're going with their kids to the garden and to the beach like they're living in Mallorca and by night they climb a hill to see the bombing "fire works".

You really like to label other people that don't have the same oppinion as yours "funny things" don't you? I'll ignore that little point. But yes, I'm one sided at this moment and it's the side of the people of gaza and also people from the west bank that are being tortured everyday.

Oh, poor kids, the israeli people. They are being manipulated. They don't access to the outside world not they have the capability to think for themselves. Witch one are being pushed into a rage agaisnt the other side? The palestinian?

Photograph taken in 26 July in TelAviv. I'm glad they are happy and enjoying life. Don't try to make me think this people are victims (and in moral danger) as palestinians are right now. You'll only make full of yourself.





Are you sure you want to argue nonsense? I won't.

BTW, can you give some info about the casualties HAMAS or othe palestinians made in Israeli population throwout the decades?

Don't bring IDF's numbers. They're usually made up.

Dude get off your self righteous high horse, go hold a vigil or protest then. I find it quite laughable that just because Israel does a better job of protecting its citizens that somehow they're not suffering in some capacity. Perhaps they don't want another event like in 2001 where a Hamas suicide bomber killed 21 and injured a 100 +, or other incidents years after. You know you want to skew it with your BS act like some humanitarian while you're simply just apologizing for Hamas. You have done nothing to try and find why Israel fights with them, nor studying the history of Hamas, who isn't afraid to let the world know how they feel, the same people running Palestine thought Osama Bin Laden's death was a great travesty.

You know you make it sound that Palestinians are basically living in N. Korea (even they have illegal networks to outside media) and they have no way to learn about things or think for themselves. Just as you're giving one sided ignorance that some people will come on here and believe because they lack common sense to explore the other side or be swayed by emotion. Which seems to be the idea both sides go for.

I already told you I've actually talked to people from Israel on the subject of their gov't and they don't agree but how you quickly forget that and skew my words. Which is funny cause any thread you can't find majority agreement in you do the same binge on how people are misquoting you all the time and then backing out.

Also if we can't trust IDF's numbers or the Hamas numbers that are also skewed, who can we trust exactly? And basically any war who can we trust as I already have shown.

This is something
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...look_at_the_death_toll_israel_s_warnings.html

Yes, and you got to give it to the Israelis, they are a lot better at being murdering immoral assholes. Better guns I suppose.

So are you saying that Israel should take down their Iron Domes and stop building bomb shelters and then revert to using Qassam rockets?

 

[Hun200kmh]

You're not making sense. Last I checked Iron domes and bomb shelters don't kill, they only protect.


PS - But now that I re-read your question I see some wisdom in it. Yes, I wouldn't mind the Israeli to use Qassam rockets, seeing as that would make them a lot worse at being what they are being now: murdering immoral assholes.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

You're not making sense. Last I checked Iron domes and bomb shelters don't kill, they only protect.

How am I not making much sense? Do you have any deduction capabilities? You just solved half the puzzle in your own wording. They "protect" a protection that Palestine doesn't have thus would put the killing of Israel citizens on a much fair level. Then everything would be just peachy.

PS - But now that I re-read your question I see some wisdom in it. Yes, I wouldn't mind the Israeli to use Qassam rockets, seeing as that would make them a lot worse at being what they are being now: murdering immoral assholes.

Well I see you aren't completely daft, but might as well take away the mathematicians and engineers as well since that's an unfair advantage as well. It's funny not long ago you were making the argument that "primitive nations" were able to beat powerful Nuclear nations with basically bronze age weapons and now your calling this lopsided and unfair if both contesting parties don't have the exact same weapons.


Some of what I'm saying is with satire tone so if you want to claim it you'd be right to do so.