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I know I'm late but aren't they interchangeable?
Israel - Palestine discussion thread
- Thread starter Beeblebrox237
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I know I'm late but aren't they interchangeable?
F1jocker12
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You need/want to read it to believe it.
Good point... let's try this - 2nd paragraph
http://news.antiwar.com/2015/03/20/obama-raises-stakes-in-netanyahu-feud/
You are welcome!
Edit - I meant the International Community will get involved and help after peace will be achieved, because US needs to relatively stabilize that region as much as possible.
Let me rephrase his sarcasm if it would be about his (or your) kids getting shot at and not killed. <Sarcasm> Johnnypenso's (or Imari's) kids are toughest kids in the world... they got shot with military grade weapons and ammunition and not a single death... <sarcasm implies the next questions> Really? They only got injured?
How would you feel and what would you think about the person that said that?
Those kids were not at the same place at the same time... Those are isolated incidents with children in the crowds or throwing rocks towards the israeli troops... We know how "stupid' children and teenagers are.
Let's try to see how disproportionate the conflict is:
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- Johnnypenso
It's not shot at, it's shot, big difference. You have no trouble believing 30 children were shot with military grade weapons and no one died? That raises no red flags to you?
squadops
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@F1jocker12 You should have said "may not" instead of "won't" because no one in the U.S. gov has said that.
Obama does not like Netanyahu in a personal way and he lets that get in the way of his policy. He's even gone so far to campaign against him in Israel and most likely used tax dollars to do it. He'll calm down once he realizes He'll have to deal with Netanyahu for 2 more years.
He didn't even call to congratulate him on his win and instead left that to Kerry lol.
It also strikes me as odd the way they pushed through the Iranian nuke talks wanting it done probably even before the election was over.
We'll see how it goes but don't expect the U.S. to do a 180 in regards to Israel.
Obama does not like Netanyahu in a personal way and he lets that get in the way of his policy. He's even gone so far to campaign against him in Israel and most likely used tax dollars to do it. He'll calm down once he realizes He'll have to deal with Netanyahu for 2 more years.
He didn't even call to congratulate him on his win and instead left that to Kerry lol.
It also strikes me as odd the way they pushed through the Iranian nuke talks wanting it done probably even before the election was over.
We'll see how it goes but don't expect the U.S. to do a 180 in regards to Israel.
- 13,859
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- Neomone
Let's say I had ten children. Over the course of a decade, they happened to all find themselves in situations where they were shot with military grade firearms, and probably none of them by accident either. Somehow, none of them were actually killed.
Were someone to express surprise at this (and I'd be shocked if they didn't, because anyone with an IQ above 30 should find that story unusual), I'd have to be the first to admit that our family is either incredibly lucky or abnormally resilient or both. Also incredibly unlucky, but sometimes you've got to look at the bright side.
Of course, the unspoken third option is that I'm not telling the whole truth about what has happened to my children, but it's generally not considered polite to bring it up to the parents of the children in question. However, since we are on the internet and we've at least nominally agreed to behave like adults we can discuss that option as well without it being taken the wrong way by whatever reporter published the statistics in the first place.
If you are the reporter who published those statistics, you're showing a surprising lack of ability to dissociate yourself from the subject.
Are the first bullets that hit people less lethal than later bullets or something? It has nothing to do with how many people were standing around, or what they were doing, it's that thirty people were hit with military firepower and none of them died. It's possible, but it raises a red flag.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe military weapons are far less lethal than I think they are. I'm not a soldier, I've never seen a gunshot wound. But you're making out like it's somehow wrong for people to question this. That's no way to have a discussion, that's you trying to stifle people into accepting your opinion as fact.
I think you're reading things into my question that aren't there. I'm not trying to say who is right or wrong. I'm not excusing Israel or Palestine for anything.
I'm questioning a single fact that sticks out to me as being pretty odd.
Palestinans could have slaughtered warehouses full of Israeli babies and bathed in their blood, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the factual accuracy of 30 Palestinian children being wounded with military firearms. Don't try and deflect.
F1jocker12
(Banned)
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What is not said leads to only speculations.
The matter that is about children makes the sarcasm highly offensive and pointless. You can raise the question without sarcasm, like you say, adults. I've invited the commenter to imagine we step out of this topic and make the same sarcastic remarks, to understand how unfair his passive-aggressive sarcasm is. I am convinced he is not casting any doubts about.... Holocaust survivors (being collaborators) ... only because he feels differently about the topic.
Those children got wounded and I think it is scary and tragic enough to bring up the immediate necessity of peace talks.
You were not sarcastic. The end of the my comment was related more to the unbalance to underline the tragedy of those people lives.
We go into semantics and soft versus strong language/message (which is important - by the way). Imagine tomorrow UN Security Council will have a session where they will discuss another Palestinians vs. Israeli Resolution. I think will pass without US vetoing it. The political language needs to give room for concessions for possible change of direction, but only the fact that American position is so drastically different that is was not too long ago, shows how they were left with no other alternatives. Of course, the Israelis can smartly play a secret card (who knows) out of their sleeves, but I think they do not have any left either. Looking at the picture, I am also afraid, by following the already known pattern, that they will attack Gaza again.
You are one of a kind and have my respect (when you are not tired!). I've wanted to write you something about it, but your previous question was important, even if, I repeat myself, my opinion doesn't matter. Initially I thought you put that comment up for readers to see.... rhetorical in a way...
You actually had the guts to go there, on the ground, to volunteer to help those victims and you are probably one of the very few that can understand my position on peace and no weapons.
I don't know why some readers here think I say Israel should disappear or/and I am defending Hamas and its actions. At this point the conflict is so ugly as it is, and it will be difficult to decipher all the questions about it. There is only one single thing that I am sure about - the reason to the ugly killing of innocents (caught in the middle) is the occupation, and that needs to stop.
I can say the Hamas weaponry its not even close as sophisticated as Israels systems...
I can say Hamas is also fighting against Fatah...
I can say that Israel doesn't care about missiles on the top of a hospital and speculate how all that was done only because the International Community watches. The IDF indiscriminatory bombed civilian targets to start with, from long time ago, when Hamas was not even there..
I also can say there should be, and there are, UN observers to note all the anomalies, write reports and charge the guilty ones... Like former US president Jimmy Carter says: ICC should pursue war crimes investigation against Israel, Hamas - he was there and met those guys, had some talks with them.
I can say Khaled Mashal, the Hamas leader is known as a very intelligent individual. Wikipedia states how
And that sums it up, I think.
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- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
And I've invited you to answer the question of whether you think 30 children shot with military grade weapons and none killed is suspicious.
Perhaps one day you will grace us all with a direct answer to a direct question. Or perhaps you have a series of links that will answer this question for you because your opinion isn't important?
F1jocker12
(Banned)
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Sarcastic again... I don't think we have only adults around here.... So sad... And about weaponry systems...You make me laugh again.
- 28,470
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- Johnnypenso
Bob, weave, slip, slide, juke jive...but never answer a question
- 13,859
- Adelaide
- Neomone
And yet you're still refusing to address the actual question that was raised. It was raised sarcastically by @Johnnypenso and then I've clarified that you have serious issues with a question in that format so I've rephrased it.
How about you cut the BS and actually address the anomaly of a significant number of children being shot with weapons designed to kill, and yet no fatalities occurring?
Until you do, anything you want to bring up to underline any "imbalance" is not going to be taken seriously, because the information on one side is largely untrustworthy.
I don't see what Hamas only having older weapons systems has to do with @KSaiyu question. It's not like older weapons systems were required to be launched from the roofs of hospitals.
You raise this point about disparity of weapons systems as a diversion, because it really has nothing to do with the question you were supposedly answering. KSaiyu had an experience where the Palestinians were trying to provoke the Israelis into a war crime, and yet you think that the weapons used are relevant somehow.
I'm with @Johnnypenso, you dodge questions like a master. How about you put down that wheelbarrow of propaganda that you're pushing and just give some straight up answers?
The more you dodge, the more you'll find that nobody actually wants to give your information or opinions any credence because they can't be sure of any of the provenance or reasoning behind any of it.
Joel
Premium
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- Noob616
You're forgetting the 5 D's of debating: dodge, duck, dip, dive, and...dodge.Bob, weave, slip, slide, juke jive...but never answer a question
F1jocker12
(Banned)
- 490
- Minneapolis
- GTSC_F1jocker12
Do not fool yourself. It is an IDF military tactic to shoot to wound and not kill...
Edit
http://www.seattleglobalist.com/201...ontrol-palestinian-west-bank-ammunition/29697
They target children for obvious reasons...
I know learning about this can be emotionally difficult. Sarcasm is not the right approach. Peace is.
How about the doubters find proof about Hamas weaponry systems, and I'll show them something about Israel strategical untouchable weapons arsenal... Deal?
Edit
from
http://www.seattleglobalist.com/201...ontrol-palestinian-west-bank-ammunition/29697
They target children for obvious reasons...
I know learning about this can be emotionally difficult. Sarcasm is not the right approach. Peace is.
How about the doubters find proof about Hamas weaponry systems, and I'll show them something about Israel strategical untouchable weapons arsenal... Deal?
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KSaiyu
(Banned)
- 2,822
Thank you. I hope my post gives a warning to any healthcare workers looking to volunteer that it is always best to go with a registered charity. The only thing that stopped me going was the blockade at the Egypt crossing, and if F1jocker wants to know about those elderly patients they were kept alive by sophisticated Israeli weaponry - the Israelis fired "roof knocking" missiles. This forced the personnel to evacuate the patients thereby leaving Hamas militants without elderly, incapacitated patients as propaganda tools. Still, you'll probably call such missiles "barbaric": http://gaza.scoop.ps/2014/07/attacks-on-al-wafa-hospital-when-moral-capacity-is-absent-what-then/
F1jocker12
(Banned)
- 490
- Minneapolis
- GTSC_F1jocker12
You are alive and well, which is all that matters at this point. Do not suppress your good side, because victims always need help.
Weapons are not designed to keep targets well or alive. They are designed to do damage, physical or psychological. Your sad linked story makes my point and I thank you for that. Innocent people are caught in the middle and, like you perfectly mentioned before, they are waking up every morning facing possible death, complete annihilation. By mistake or on purpose is still to be investigated and maybe (try to keep a cool head here) get the guilty convicted.
Like I wrote before, International Law specifically underlines how people under occupation have the right to resist and fight back, and Palestinians (like they've done in the last 48 years) will fight.
Peace will drastically decrease the numbers of the innocent victims, and will give same Palestinians the chance to build instead of destroying. With a little twist in their education, based on the same values but with a different goal, they can change the face of Palestine. After all, it's going to be all about their future in a geographical reality of having Israel as neighbor. Still, there will be Montagues and Capulets, but I think the young Romeos and Juliets will prevail... If they will have the chance.
Off topic - My advice? Do yourself a favor and try to calm down. Seriously! I know how to handle mental health patients, so it is hard to offend me. I've dealt with a lot worse. You know how little Chihuahuas are squeaking when they smell the German shepherds? What the German shepherds do? Break the little ones necks? No way... They protect them, 'cause the little ones don't have any clue what they are making noises about... And because I think you already got your tension up, let me explain it to you. Chihuahuas are easy to be identified on forums... The German shepherds are the moderators. I've always supported the free speech!
On topic - Diversion? Any word I write can be a diversion, and any word you write can be a diversion as well... Nobody is here to answer any questions.
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- 20,820
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- Blitzbay
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Okay. Point made. If someone asks you to clarify your position or explain the links you are quoting, we should not expect any answer other than more links or avoiding the question because this entire section is supposed to be a rhetoric about one side and not the other. You do realize that sidestepping any questions will simply make your position meaningless and it becomes no different than someone posting spam and no constructive thoughts whatsoever. Whenever we post something sarcastic you have no problem answering in a condescending tone but when people ask you to clarify your posts you say you don't have to or refuse to.
squadops
(Banned)
- 1,987
- United States
So, you're the chihuahua in this analogy?
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Fixed that for you. Now about those 30 kids shot with military grade weapons and not a one killed? And how about those roof knocking missles @KSaiyu mentioned earlier? Kind of doesn't fit the with image of the barabaric, blood thirsty Jew you seem to want to push forward.
Oh I forgot, you aren't here to answer any questions.
I'll take a half dozen links and a lame analogy about dogs or cats to go please. 
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squadops
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- United States
Lets see how this goes @F1jocker12...
Just as you were sure about the elections, which did not pan out, I don't expect your prediction over a veto at the U.N. to either. IIRC your thought was the general people of Israel don't support Netanyahu because they're interested in the kind of 'peace' you advocate. Is it ironic to realize the way he tipped the scales and insured victory was by pandering to the hardliners who don't want to see a Palestinian state at the last moment? Obama is upset, he wants a legacy of successful pragmatic decision making(regardless of the long term harm it may cause)so, what's going to happen when either cooler heads or stoic actions come to light, there will be no knee jerk Palestinian statehood to be had.
As far as your typical left wing eating up of "the poor kids throwing rocks against a ruthless army" is concerned, the Palestinians have been given so many chances at gaining a reasonable state it's painful to watch them stick to something they deem fair. The longer they play that card the less effect it is going to have and the more apparent it becomes they want no Israel in existence at all.
Most of the Americans and probably most everyone else in this thread knows about weaponry between the two you keep referring to, we know what Israel has because we helped them create it, they helped us test it, we have a close partnership in developing and expanding an arsenal that no one else in the region can face. It doesn't always work and is in some ways similar to the way we got our ass handed to us in Vietnam, but we adapt to that and Israel helps us in doing so. In return they reap all sorts of benefit. It is a partnership though so don't go thinking we don't need them, because we do.
Iran will only backs Hamas so far, The Aribs only do what they do as long as the mountains maintain a safe distance from it all for them. Lots of posturing and so forth but the U.S. not only has interests, and technology, we most importantly have time, patience, and money. It does not mater if it's resources, security, or anything else we are looking at long term, we act vigorously and will continue that trend.
(not directly on topic below)
(and back to the topic directly below)
One thing I can let you have is a little bit of support in you saying "all that matters is the U.N." only because they created the Israeli state in the first place.
Whether it be the PLO, the Palestinian Authority(now the Palestinian State), or Hamas, offers have been made and refused and at the moment none of them are the center of attention in the mid east and won't be for a while 👍
Edit. Can a mod or admin tell me why I get – instead of a dash - and so on when I quoted that news story? I could manually fix it but was wondering if there is an auto fix ?
Just as you were sure about the elections, which did not pan out, I don't expect your prediction over a veto at the U.N. to either. IIRC your thought was the general people of Israel don't support Netanyahu because they're interested in the kind of 'peace' you advocate. Is it ironic to realize the way he tipped the scales and insured victory was by pandering to the hardliners who don't want to see a Palestinian state at the last moment? Obama is upset, he wants a legacy of successful pragmatic decision making(regardless of the long term harm it may cause)so, what's going to happen when either cooler heads or stoic actions come to light, there will be no knee jerk Palestinian statehood to be had.
As far as your typical left wing eating up of "the poor kids throwing rocks against a ruthless army" is concerned, the Palestinians have been given so many chances at gaining a reasonable state it's painful to watch them stick to something they deem fair. The longer they play that card the less effect it is going to have and the more apparent it becomes they want no Israel in existence at all.
Most of the Americans and probably most everyone else in this thread knows about weaponry between the two you keep referring to, we know what Israel has because we helped them create it, they helped us test it, we have a close partnership in developing and expanding an arsenal that no one else in the region can face. It doesn't always work and is in some ways similar to the way we got our ass handed to us in Vietnam, but we adapt to that and Israel helps us in doing so. In return they reap all sorts of benefit. It is a partnership though so don't go thinking we don't need them, because we do.
Iran will only backs Hamas so far, The Aribs only do what they do as long as the mountains maintain a safe distance from it all for them. Lots of posturing and so forth but the U.S. not only has interests, and technology, we most importantly have time, patience, and money. It does not mater if it's resources, security, or anything else we are looking at long term, we act vigorously and will continue that trend.
http://time.com/3138366/iran-and-hamas-alliance-after-gaza-war/
(not directly on topic below)
https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/saudi-arabia-and-iran-compete-yemen
(and back to the topic directly below)
http://news.yahoo.com/pakistan-sending-plane-evacuate-those-stranded-yemen-052519007.html
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4641758,00.html
One thing I can let you have is a little bit of support in you saying "all that matters is the U.N." only because they created the Israeli state in the first place.
Whether it be the PLO, the Palestinian Authority(now the Palestinian State), or Hamas, offers have been made and refused and at the moment none of them are the center of attention in the mid east and won't be for a while 👍
Edit. Can a mod or admin tell me why I get – instead of a dash - and so on when I quoted that news story? I could manually fix it but was wondering if there is an auto fix ?
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F1jocker12
(Banned)
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- Minneapolis
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Set of questions is an interrogation... Most of us are here because of a different reason (created by Polyphony Digital).
Out of respect for commentators I've answered as many questions as it was possible. Unfortunately, some of them don't like homework, thing that I do not have control over and I am not squealing about. Some of the questions are irrelevant and will move the discussion away from the topic. I respect them but I cannot go in a wrong direction only because some of you cry for an answer. The situation as it is, is defined by two concepts - facts or fiction. UN decisions are facts, not fiction, recognized by the entire world. If some commentators have a problem with that, I wish them good luck, but questioning any UN decision will move us into a fictional world, because no government does that. Not even Israel's leaders... They choose to ignore, because questioning decisions based on universal values of freedom and democracy will forever compromise any politician or any national leader. Some of the commentators fail to understand how actual US position regarding the 2 state solution is based on the Universal Democratic Values. One of them is Popular Sovereignty. Also, if you do not know United Nations values, from its Charter
you have no qualification to say a word about any conflict at all. That will be spam, indeed.
Links are related to the title of the thread, so are not spam in any way.
It is interesting how nobody jumped to provide any info about those so developed weapon systems used by Hamas... hmmm... only squealing...
If readers want to know more about how Hamas was created, Wall Street Journal had this story in 2009.
How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas. Comprehensive article about the topic.
squadops
(Banned)
- 1,987
- United States
I thought I mentioned how Hamas lit some over sized bottle rockets that launched awry, or is that not what you mean?
Rocks and bottle rockets, hiding behind civilians to cry foul, isn't that about it?
Yeah, I'd hope most in this thread know about the history of Hamas...
Rocks and bottle rockets, hiding behind civilians to cry foul, isn't that about it?
Yeah, I'd hope most in this thread know about the history of Hamas...
- 31,550
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
The UN is a neutered organisation that can't agree on the most basic decisions.
"Idea! "
"VETO!"
- 28,470
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- Johnnypenso
tl;dr
All you had to say was, " I won't answer any direct questions, here are links I've posted already"
squadops
(Banned)
- 1,987
- United States
Don't forget the new link Johnny, aren't you just so surprised and in aw? It's a conspiracy above all others(or not lol).
How anyone would be surprised that Israel didn't like the Islamic Brotherhood or the idea of them governing the Gaza Strip is beyond me. How are they working out in Egypt at the moment anyway? I've not been following that one too closely but I'd guess their power is dwindling. @F1jocker12, there is a specific reason I earlier said in this thread "resurrect Gamal Abdel Nasser" Who else has had control over the Gaza strip and also survived an assassination attemp by the Muslim Brotherhood? If you think about it, I didn't say that in blind support of Israel either.
How anyone would be surprised that Israel didn't like the Islamic Brotherhood or the idea of them governing the Gaza Strip is beyond me. How are they working out in Egypt at the moment anyway? I've not been following that one too closely but I'd guess their power is dwindling. @F1jocker12, there is a specific reason I earlier said in this thread "resurrect Gamal Abdel Nasser" Who else has had control over the Gaza strip and also survived an assassination attemp by the Muslim Brotherhood? If you think about it, I didn't say that in blind support of Israel either.
