Israel - Palestine discussion thread
- Thread starter Beeblebrox237
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I really don't understand how people can defend Israel on the most blatantly obvious violations of human rights. The recent UN resolution vote to end Israeli settlements and Israel expecting the US to constantly protect it shows how Israel, who expects the Palestinian authorities to cooperate for peace, can't even cooperate for peace themselves. These settlements are simply going to make the situation even more tense between the governments and the ethnic groups.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...land-murray-mccully-un-security-a7498331.html
The delusion that Israel is a "partner for peace" has been disproven again and again. Calling out the Saudis and Palestinians for violation of human rights will not change that Israel has blood on its hands as well. This isn't even about religion, this is about reality and humanity.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...land-murray-mccully-un-security-a7498331.html
The delusion that Israel is a "partner for peace" has been disproven again and again. Calling out the Saudis and Palestinians for violation of human rights will not change that Israel has blood on its hands as well. This isn't even about religion, this is about reality and humanity.
DLR_Mysterion
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I don't think anyone's defending that - just debating the latest UN resolution. Then again I can only speak for myself, and I certainly don't believe Israel is whiter than white!
And the jibes about human rights violations are based on stories such as the UN coming down hard on Israel while ignoring so many nations more blatantly, obviously worse with regards to the subject. Will we see similar stories like this coming from Israel?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-entering-city-shopping-without-husband.html
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Read my comment on the last page regarding why Israel does not currently push for a peace treaty. It more lies with the fact that there are preconditions for peace for Palestine, one of which is the Right of Return. Another issue is peace cannot be made unless both Hamas AND the PLO agree with it. Hamas has in it's charter that they will never accept an Israeli state so unless that changes there cannot be a resolution. (Add to that Hamas is a recognized terrorist group.)
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- mustafur
Fatah should establish some kind of Referendum for those in the West Bank and Gaza if they want to split, because if that did go ahead and West bank was independent of Gaza. Israel would have some serious legality issues continuing their settlement expansion given the Hamas threat wouldn't apply at all if it happened compared to the technicality it is now.
But of course Israel would also have to accept the result of this because at the end of the day they are the ones who control the Palestinian Authority, if they declined it well it would seriously expose what would be clearly obvious Land grabbing from Israel(not that it isn't already).
But of course Israel would also have to accept the result of this because at the end of the day they are the ones who control the Palestinian Authority, if they declined it well it would seriously expose what would be clearly obvious Land grabbing from Israel(not that it isn't already).
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I agree and I'm not a huge fan of Palestine. The question is will Fatah agree to make concessions. I know Israel has in the past but every peace deal that Israel has pushed apparently was not enough for Palestine. How about no more new settlements and an agreement to the 1967 borders while East Jerusalem can be a joint capital. However, Fatah and Hamas must drop the rhetoric of Israel not being allowed to exist and the known funding and celebrating of terrorism.
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What's there to debate? Israeli settlements are classified as illegal and a violation of human rights by the Non Aligned Movement and the fourth Geneva Convention. Again, I'm not saying those actions are okay. They should be addressed. However, again, this is not a debate. It has been established.
DLR_Mysterion
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So the terror attacks, the teaching of children to hate Israel, the embezzlement of humanitarian aid and the complete refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist are completely ignored?
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- FlyingAGasoline
The Non-Aligned Movement? Yeah. They're credible. Founding class included Gamal Abdel Nasser. To be fair, Nasser had the good sense to have Sayyid Qutb hanged in 1966.
Tragedy #1: Netanyahu is the moderate in his party. Do you want Naftali Bennett or Avigdor Lieberman running things?
Tragedy #2: The Hamas government was set up from the start to be the wealthiest government that ever ruled Gaza. They.. got their priorities mixed up.
Tragedy #3: The states in the region do not actually care about their Palestinian "brothers". Millions have lived and died in refugee camps, unable to work.
Tragedy #4: Gaza is a deplorable humanitarian disaster.
Tragedy #5: The gulf arab states are doing nothing substantial because Palestine has been ground zero for both the old middle eastern cold war (Secular Nationalism vs monarchism) and the new one (Saudi vs. Iran) The Saudis leaked in 2011 that they would let Israel strike Iran from SAUDI bases.
The Saudis and Iranians would love for everyone to keep their eyes on Israel. It distracts the world from the crimes they are committing in the name of God. Let the slugfest continue. Let them each declare the other apostates and ramp up sectarianism. They've turned Syria and Yemen into Gaza. What's next?
[rant]Those Houthis must be pretty damned evil if al-Saud is doing to them what they should be doing to Daesh, which, like Juhayman and his band of misfits, want al-Saud out of power.[/rant]
Tragedy #1: Netanyahu is the moderate in his party. Do you want Naftali Bennett or Avigdor Lieberman running things?
Tragedy #2: The Hamas government was set up from the start to be the wealthiest government that ever ruled Gaza. They.. got their priorities mixed up.
Tragedy #3: The states in the region do not actually care about their Palestinian "brothers". Millions have lived and died in refugee camps, unable to work.
Tragedy #4: Gaza is a deplorable humanitarian disaster.
Tragedy #5: The gulf arab states are doing nothing substantial because Palestine has been ground zero for both the old middle eastern cold war (Secular Nationalism vs monarchism) and the new one (Saudi vs. Iran) The Saudis leaked in 2011 that they would let Israel strike Iran from SAUDI bases.
The Saudis and Iranians would love for everyone to keep their eyes on Israel. It distracts the world from the crimes they are committing in the name of God. Let the slugfest continue. Let them each declare the other apostates and ramp up sectarianism. They've turned Syria and Yemen into Gaza. What's next?
[rant]Those Houthis must be pretty damned evil if al-Saud is doing to them what they should be doing to Daesh, which, like Juhayman and his band of misfits, want al-Saud out of power.[/rant]
- 1,459
- USA
Israel's occupation of Palestine and the undermining of the people's rights are absolutely not acceptable. Hamas is by no means perfect and their strategies are not orthodox, but is the IDF any better? The rocket attacks in 2014 were pathetic, most of them were deflected by the Iron Dome. 6 civilians died on the Israeli side, and guess how many died on the Palestinian side? 2000-2500 people died. People who were clearly civilians are grouped as terrorists. If you don't believe me, try listening to the actual soldiers who were involved in these situations.
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.654823
Also, again, the embezzlement claim might be true. Obviously, Hamas has blood on its hands.
Regarding the hate Israel thing, what do you think? You might remember this but my family came from war in the Balkans. Serb troops had a very well armed and wealthy army. They were responsible for countless attacks and massacres in Europe, some of which in a scale that haven't been heard of in Europe since WW2. The attempted ethnic cleansing and apartheid-like treatment of non-Serbs is far too similar to the situation in Palestine. In war, there is hate. 18 years later and there are still tensions. This is normal. However, it can fade away. In the situation of Palestine most of their homeland was taken and European Jews settled creating a state just to suit their religious beliefs. Before the creation of the state of Israel, Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived in a relatively peaceful state. However, the Israelis stealing the land in 1948 obviously would spark a war, and the Zionists retaliated on civilians. Some examples of this are the Deir Yassin and King David massacres.
... and it also includes other non-Arab nations with founders who simply were again imperialism. I guess Nelson Mandela wasn't credible, ya know, considering South Africa was under imperialism as well. Hm, sounds familiar.
1: Netanyahu is still clearly irrational and considers New Zealand, a very peaceful and small country, an enemy for denouncing Israeli settlements and considering it a declaration of war really shows who wants to make the situation more tense
2: What the Hell are you talking about lol if they were wealthy they would be waging a fair war instead of having a fishing boat flotilla navy and smuggling weapons.
3: Some do and some don't, you can't group all of them in one bowl. KSA is clearly pro-Israel and sides with America along with Egypt's new government. Other countries like the UAE, Lebanon, Iran, etc. do care.
4: I agree
5: I never mentioned anything about that lol. I completely understand the KSA is in an ideological war, but that's not my argument. My argument is Israel's policy in Palestine should be condemned. Pointing at the Saudis as if I don't want them to be held responsible for their human rights violations is not going to justify what Israel has done as well.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/on-independence-day-moderate-syrian-rebels-send-warm-wishes/
The West-backed FSA has been proven to be in contact with ISIS and Al-Nusra. The rest of the so called members are SDF and fighting ISIS. Israel loves to fight terrorists in Palestine, but support terrorists in Syria.
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Israel stole the land in 1948? Stole it from who? Pretty sure that Britain, who may have "stole" the land in your eyes, declared that the goal was to give the Jewish people a land in the Balfour declaration in 1917. The original plan had Israel having half of the land and the Arabs having half of the land. Israel accepted it, the Arabs did not. Israel was attacked upon declaring independence in 1948, was ambushed in 1967 and 1973. Yet it won (possibly drew the 1973 war) all of those defensive wars.
While the loss of human life is unacceptable, Israel is trying to fight a cowardly entity in Hamas. Hamas does not care for it's population. Instead, it treats them as pawns to gain humanitarian aid, will execute them if they in any way try to refuse providing aid to the terror tunnels, and uses the populace as human shields by setting up all of their rocket launches INSIDE of civilian homes. Hamas takes whatever aid it gets and embezzles most, using it either to line their own pockets or to acquire more weapons or to build more tunnels to abduct Israelis. They don't want to help their people, they are perfectly happy with using them as means to get more money that they will then use to just arm themselves more.
VolkswagenX
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I think I asked this before, but why do Israel supporters always use the Hamas did this and that excuse? Is Hamas forcing Israel to build settlements in de west-bank?
I think most people realize that it's pointless to discuss the existing (illegal) settlements. What truly bothers me is that they keep building more. I just don't understand how anyone can justify bulldozing people's houses and replacing them with new settlements specifically build for one racial group only.
I think most people realize that it's pointless to discuss the existing (illegal) settlements. What truly bothers me is that they keep building more. I just don't understand how anyone can justify bulldozing people's houses and replacing them with new settlements specifically build for one racial group only.
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Israel is expanding their grip on the land in.... an unusual matter. The reason Hamas is brought up is because Fatah and Hamas are aligned as one when it comes to a peace treaty. You are effectively dealing with two actors on the Palestinian side. If one side doesn't agree to make concessions (Hamas re-wording it's charter or disarming), then the status quo continues.
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- mustafur
But that problem is of Israels creation as Israel controls the Palestinian Authority.
At this day and Age West bank is basically lost for any Future state of Palestine, Israel claims 75% of it as it's own land and lets the Palestinian population live in the cracks(which they make sure are not near the Jordan Border so they can't escape).
The Israelis that are moving there are doing so because the Government is making the settlements extremely appealing by supplying people with high class living thats being Supplemented by the Israeli tax dollar, You can't blame the People for taking up the opportunity to live a better life but this is completely an Israeli government created situation at trying to out populate the arabs, this is proper Apartheid.
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DLR_Mysterion
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By Israeli Government, Yes.
DLR_Mysterion
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So....
1948 - Arab Israeli war
1967 - Defensive war against attacking arabs
1973 - Defensive war against attacking arabs
1982 - Lebanon Israeli war
2006 - Lebanon Israeli war
And the arabs want to say scratch all that history, can we go back to 1948 and pretend all the other stuff didn't happen?
1948 - Arab Israeli war
1967 - Defensive war against attacking arabs
1973 - Defensive war against attacking arabs
1982 - Lebanon Israeli war
2006 - Lebanon Israeli war
And the arabs want to say scratch all that history, can we go back to 1948 and pretend all the other stuff didn't happen?
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- mustafur
The main power here is the UN, if you don't get recognition from other countries that this is your land well it's only your land from your own perspective.
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- Hammerhead Garage
Do you know what happened prior to all of that?
In the aftermath of the Second World War, there were a lot of Jewish people who were stateless. They had been forced out of their homes and could not go back for fear of further persecution or retribution. Europe didn't know what to do with them until Britain came up with the idea of a Jewish state. At the time, Palestine was known as Mandate Palestine and was under British control. So Britain took the lands that made up Mandate Palestine and turned it into Israel. That's why the Palestinians were upset to begin with - they were struggling for recognition as a state in their own right, but then the British came along and gave their lands to someone else.
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See, if you carefully read what I said, I said that incoming Jews from Europe were coming into "Israel" while the religious groups living there lived in a relatively peaceful state. The Arabs had no reason to give up half their land to appease refugees and their religious beliefs. We already established Israel transgressed in 1948. Now you're bringing up the Six-Day and Yom Kippur wars which have nothing to do with Israeli colonization and involved other nations.
I think you mean Hamas in Palestine. Also, I literally just stated that Israel regards anyone in their zone of operations a terrorist. Whatever you said, you have not provided any reliable source to back up your claims. All you're doing is regurgitating what you've heard and taken it as genuine. First of all, Israel has never provided evidence to back up the claims that Hamas soldiers are hiding themselves or weapons in any public or religious institution. There were only 2 cases of weapons being hidden, and the schools were emptied out. Israel has all of the equipment needed to avoid civilian casualties, and even has its own domestic armed UAVs. And when it does use them along with artillery, it doesn't hit areas with heavy militant presence. It hits densely populated areas with hundreds of civilians paying the price. Shelling, bombing homes that are even slightly suspected of having Hamas troops in them, are a violation of human rights and international law. This isn't rocket science. Also, while tunnels are used to kidnap civilians and troops, they mainly serve as ways to get to their positions. Also I have yet to see concrete evidence on Hamas used embezzled money on weapons.
Sources:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/07/israelgaza-conflict-questions-and-answers/
http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/27/s...tunnels-used-to-target-israels-kindergartens/
- 4,735
- Kansas City, MO
- FlyingAGasoline
Western powers pulled a number in the Middle East during and after the First World War. England did, after all, tell Russia it could have Istanbul / Constantinople if they won, as though that were going to happen. How was the world to recover from the wounds of the second when it has yet to recover from the scars of the first?
If peoples should be able to coexist peacefully, one would think it would be the ones that have gotten shafted by the European powers for centuries.
If six nations wage a campaign to drive people into the sea or kill them and get their asses handed to them and lose ground, the argument for getting that land back afterwards is toothless. The pandora's box of the existential struggle got thrown open. The Palestinians have been a pawn of the Gulf states. This debacle is the precursor to proxy war of the Middle east. How should one react to a state that calls for the death of entire people? Are we supposed to apologize to sectarian fanatics that our people are alive? That we should have died?
The Palestinians have been thrown under the bus by the Gulf states for a short-term and mostly failed political gain. Why do the Gulf states add to their misery? They are getting played in a sick sectarian joke by the nation-states that claim to be their friends and brothers. That is asinine.
If peoples should be able to coexist peacefully, one would think it would be the ones that have gotten shafted by the European powers for centuries.
If six nations wage a campaign to drive people into the sea or kill them and get their asses handed to them and lose ground, the argument for getting that land back afterwards is toothless. The pandora's box of the existential struggle got thrown open. The Palestinians have been a pawn of the Gulf states. This debacle is the precursor to proxy war of the Middle east. How should one react to a state that calls for the death of entire people? Are we supposed to apologize to sectarian fanatics that our people are alive? That we should have died?
The Palestinians have been thrown under the bus by the Gulf states for a short-term and mostly failed political gain. Why do the Gulf states add to their misery? They are getting played in a sick sectarian joke by the nation-states that claim to be their friends and brothers. That is asinine.
DLR_Mysterion
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But they were given a state weren't they? Along with Israel? They just chose to reject it.
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Because there were conditions attached that they didn't like. No such conditions were put in place for Israel.
DLR_Mysterion
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What were these conditions?
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I would think that the existence of a Jewish state is a major chaffing point...
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I think it had something to do with the borders. Jerusalem is the site of the Dome of the Rock, which has significance to Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It contains the Foundation Stone and is believed to be the altar on which Abraham prepared to sacrifice his son; today, it is the holiest site in Judaism and regarded as the junction between heaven and earth. To Muslims, the Dome of the Rock is believed to be the temple Muhammad visited during the Night Journey; it is also said to be the Well of Souls, where the voices of the dead can be heard while they await judgement. The Dome of the Rock is one of the few - and maybe the only - holy sites common to all three religions. I'm pretty sure that the boundaries of the proposed Israeli and Palestinian states limited Palestinian access to the Dome of the Rock, effectively making it a de facto Jewish holy site.
