Israel - Palestine discussion thread

justin credible
This link http://creation.com/is-god-inconsistent could answer your question, but yes, off course I believe that. I cant see how people who inflicted all kinds of evil acts, cannot be judged for it. I cannot see how those who are faithful to God, must just lay in waste, because of some evil cult who decided to kill them for not accepting islam. Just like man has his justice system, God is just, and has proven his judgment on the earth, over sin and wickedness throughout.
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I have read the link and I think you are missing my point, I am not judging you or anyone else who wants to believe what ever they want
I read the link as I said and it is just hear say to me someone wrote it the same as Robert Louis Stevenson wrote Treasure Island, I think you can see where I am going here, I need proof in front of my own eyes to make me a believer I don't understand why by reading a book like the bible can make someone believe it is all true and god is real and the be all.
I see it as when we are children religion is brain washed as to say in to us and that is why it is believed, the bogey man is something used as a scare tactic when we are young yet even in adulthood we know the bogeyman is a myth yet a lot of people still have an subconscious fear going in to dark places etc. Is this the same with the god thing? a fear of daring to say hang on that is not right to me?
We know the tooth fairy and (thanks to johnnypenso:lol:) santa is a myth from childhood so why still believe a man in the sky is watching over us and will take us to the promised land if we are kind and decent to our fellow man?
I would love to know apart from choice what it is that makes someone when they reach adulthood and can think for them selves why they choose to believe in a god when in reality no proof exists.

That line above in bold is that you saying god is going to intervene and put and end to the troubles with radicalisms of religion?
Or is it you crying out for the non believers in islam to bear arms and destroy the radicals?
Please give me the opportunity of understanding the way a mans mind works when he is totally devoted to a god like you are as I struggle to grasp the whole idea.👍[/QUOTE]

@justin credible
God intervened throughout history, to ensure His promise on the Jews, to bring forth the Messiah who would redeem the world. It's a free gift of salvation, as there will be things coming upon this world, which as you can see, are getting worse. It's nothing yet, compare to what is coming.

Gods plan was finished on the Cross, and He told us that He will finally put an end to all evil and wickedness on an earth that man chose, and is still choosing.
So yes, God is not intervening anymore, but He will put an end to it once and for all.
 
DLR_Mysterion
I figure this is the de facto "Israel-Palestine" thread so thoughts on this?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...ian-territories-netanyahu-obama-a7497416.html

tl;dr is the US abstained from voting on a UN resolution condemning Israel building settlements on disputed land. This is Netenyahu's latest response.
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Obama isn't pro-Israel. He made that perfectly clear three years ago when he actively campaigned against Bibi in his Prime Minister re-election bid back in 2013, and again in 2015. I wouldn't put it past him that he secretly drafted the resolution. That is all that I am willing to say on the subject.
 
mustafur
The building of settlements is clearly an attempt to take over west bank by outpopulating the arabs, there is plenty of empty land within Israel.
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Did you actually read what the resolution actually said? The resolution made every Jew living in the Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem an international criminal. I'll dare go one step further in that it declared that city to be Palestine's (even though we could argue over semantics that the Jews lived there for well over 2,000 years before they were driven from their homeland by the Roman Empire in 79 AD).
 
Sanji Himura
Did you actually read what the resolution actually said? The resolution made every Jew living in the Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem an international criminal. I'll dare go one step further in that it declared that city to be Palestine's (even though we could argue over semantics that the Jews lived there for well over 2,000 years before they were driven from their homeland by the Roman Empire in 79 AD).
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Ooops, guess I need to read the actual resolution.

EDIT: Just so I'm clear, when they refer to "East Jerusalem" is that wholly this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Quarter_(Jerusalem)

Or includes other parts of Jerusalem too?
 
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Sanji Himura
Did you actually read what the resolution actually said? The resolution made every Jew living in the Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem an international criminal. I'll dare go one step further in that it declared that city to be Palestine's (even though we could argue over semantics that the Jews lived there for well over 2,000 years before they were driven from their homeland by the Roman Empire in 79 AD).
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You didn't exactly link anything that said anything about ''Jew" rather then Israeli.
 
mustafur
You didn't exactly link anything that said anything about ''Jew" rather then Israeli.
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Full text of the resolution here

Relevant section: Emphasis added

UN Resolution 2334
Condemning all measures aimed at altering the demographic composition, character and status of the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, including, inter alia, the construction and expansion of settlements, transfer of Israeli settlers, confiscation of land, demolition of homes and displacement of Palestinian civilians, in violation of international humanitarian law and relevant resolutions,

Expressing grave concern that continuing Israeli settlement activities are dangerously imperilling the viability of the two-State solution based on the 1967 lines,
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Basically, the UN wants Israel to give up the land that it gained via the 1967 war.

Oh, and to answer your question, DLR_Mysterion, it does refer to the Jewish quarter.
 
Sanji Himura
Full text of the resolution here

Relevant section: Emphasis added



Basically, the UN wants Israel to give up the land that it gained via the 1967 war.

Oh, and to answer your question, DLR_Mysterion, it does refer to the Jewish quarter.
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It also allows the Palestinians to use this as the starting point to draft a state without a working agreement with Israel. I don't want to type this but Obama has no interest in Israel with Jerusalem under it's control. When Hamas is celebrating this resolution, a known terror group, you know there's a problem.
 
Sanji Himura
Full text of the resolution here

Relevant section: Emphasis added



Basically, the UN wants Israel to give up the land that it gained via the 1967 war.

Oh, and to answer your question, DLR_Mysterion, it does refer to the Jewish quarter.
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EastJerusalemMap.jpg
Face it, you used misleading words for something you think is said on the bill which isn't even true, the majority of what they claimed in 1967 was in fact Arab and not Jewish area.

But tbh this isn't the main problem, the main problem today is Israel building gated communities fully within West bank and it's slowly getting to the point where they are becoming huge percentage of the population of the population, divide and conquer style.

IsraeliSettlementGrowthLineGraph.png




It's basically the same Strategy used by the Turkish to gain control of Northern Cyprus.
 
mustafur
Face it, you used misleading words for something you think is said on the bill which isn't even true, the majority of what they claimed in 1967 was in fact Arab and not Jewish area.

But tbh this isn't the main problem, the main problem today is Israel building gated communities fully within West bank and it's slowly getting to the point where they are becoming a huge percentage of the population of the population, divide and conquer style.
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There are Arabs who are Israeli citizens (in fact, they make up 20% of the total population of Israel), so the perception that it is the Jewish population that is expanding into these areas is likely false. Furthermore, there is actually a buffer area between Israel's borders and the West Bank (don't quote me on the distance) that was necessitated by the 1967 war. It isn't like how the 38th parallel is set up with landmines dotting the landscape ready to kill indiscriminately for those who cross the border. The Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty solidified the agreement. The establishment and recognition of Palestine as a state complicated matters since Palestine apparently only recognizes the pre-1967 borders and has been working on forcing Israel to give up the required land.
 
The fact remains you have Israeli Citizens coming in growing numbers to the Westbank which is making the Palestinians live in an Apatheid state so the Israeli military can protect it's citizens in that area.

Whether they are Arab or not is not relevent as all the Israeli settlements are separated from the Palestinian Population.

This is the main concern here, and the reason other countries refuse to acknowledge Israels Legality in Westbank.
 
mustafur
The fact remains you have Israeli Citizens coming in growing numbers to the Westbank which is making the Palestinians live in an Apatheid state so the Israeli military can protect it's citizens in that area.

Whether they are Arab or not is not relevent as all the Israeli settlements are separated from the Palestinian Population.

This is the main concern here, and the reason other countries refuse to acknowledge Israels Legality in Westbank.
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Let me try a different tact here:

What is the stated goal of Hamas? If the answer is anything BUT no peace except when Israel is wiped off the map, then you have failed to have understood the mindset of HALF of the Palestinian government. Furthermore, it is a mindset that is shared by ISIS, Iran and some sects of Islam. The so-called Apartheid state that is in the Palestinians minds is created by the fact that Israel built a wall on the 1949 borders. Nothing is restricting the Palestinians from land in the West Bank furthermore, if there is lasting peace, the Israelis would voluntarily leave the settlements at the government's request, as they have done in 1982 (when they gave up the Sinai Peninsula) and again in 2005 (when they all but gave up the West Bank and the Gaza Strip). This resolution doesn't change the status quo in Gaza nor the West Bank. Hamas is still playing the puppet master in the Gaza Strip (and in effect, the entire region), and is in control of the peace negotiations between Israel and Palestine (which if you read the Hamas Charter, there is no peace negotiations).
 
Hamas has no presence in the West Bank though and the Israelis have settlements there but not Gaza so your point is invalid.

Also good luck telling some 700k people to just leave their homes and communities, those settlements are not short term things. Your avoiding the fact that Israel is clearly trying to over populate the Palestinians in West bank with it's own citizens, it's proven further by the fact Palestinians from west bank that don't live in there at present can't go back, without Israeli citizenship.
 
I'm confused then. Will Palestine exist without Gaza? If it does then the argument holds water. Until the West Bank thoroughly denounces Hamas as a partner then there is succumbing to a terrorist group.
 
Blitz24
I'm confused then. Will Palestine exist without Gaza? If it does then the argument holds water. Until the West Bank thoroughly denounces Hamas as a partner then there is succumbing to a terrorist group.
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West Bank has a Different Government to Gaza they have been separated since 2007.

Hamas runs Gaza, Fatah runs West bank(Or whatever parts are left).
 
mustafur
West Bank has a Different Government to Gaza they have been separated since 2007.

Hamas runs Gaza, Fatah runs West bank(Or whatever parts are left).
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Really? I have seen no motion from a representative of just the West Bank asking for independence from Gaza. Furthermore, the UN has not recognized the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as separate independent nations. They are legally recognized as Palestine. Why you are making that distinction when we all know that Palestine has no real central government, and didn't have one since Yasser Arafat died in 2004.

EDIT: Here is some light reading about the right to build settlements:

https://www.conservativereview.com/...uild-homes-is-settled-under-international-law
 
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Sanji Himura
Really? I have seen no motion from a representative of just the West Bank asking for independence from Gaza. Furthermore, the UN has not recognized the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as separate independent nations. They are legally recognized as Palestine. Why you are making that distinction when we all know that Palestine has no real central government, and didn't have one since Yasser Arafat died in 2004.

EDIT: Here is some light reading about the right to build settlements:

https://www.conservativereview.com/...uild-homes-is-settled-under-international-law
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Well Hamas has looked into independence from the West bank, Hamas and Fatah don't get along. I understand they are both considered Palestine I was just listing a fact that there is two governments because the way those two territories are it's not exactly possible for people from Gaza to go to West bank and vice versa.

and that Link you sent is seriously laughable, There is no perspective from the people in these areas trapped in apartheid and extremely limited in movement due to the Israeli occupation of West bank, either give them full citizenship or get off the land how can anyone in 2016 support the current situation having some kind of second tier people which are living in poverty and have no right to self determination.
 
mustafur
Well Hamas has looked into independence from the West bank, Hamas and Fatah don't get along. I understand they are both considered Palestine I was just listing a fact that there is two governments because the way those two territories are it's not exactly possible for people from Gaza to go to West bank and vice versa.

and that Link you sent is seriously laughable, There is no perspective from the people in these areas trapped in apartheid and extremely limited in movement due to the Israeli occupation of West bank, either give them full citizenship or get off the land how can anyone in 2016 support the current situation having some kind of second tier people which are living in poverty and have no right to self determination.
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The West Bank and Gaza cannot be treated as one entity because of the two groups yet any peace deal must involve both. The people in Gaza live in shambles not just because of Israel but because Hamas embezzles the money to pay for terror operations as well. Until Hamas is toppled or changes their original charter, a deal that eases the border security, especially that of Gaza, will end up with more violence. Hamas has no incentive to change it's behavior because the International community will never sanction them to the point where it makes a difference.
 
mustafur
and that Link you sent is seriously laughable, There is no perspective from the people in these areas trapped in apartheid and extremely limited in movement due to the Israeli occupation of West bank, either give them full citizenship or get off the land how can anyone in 2016 support the current situation having some kind of second tier people which are living in poverty and have no right to self determination.
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Is two states even viable at this stage? And considering that source's argument, what land was officially given to the Palestinians in the first place?
 
DLR_Mysterion
Is two states even viable at this stage? And considering that source's argument, what land was officially given to the Palestinians in the first place?
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Two states are definitely viable. The problem lies with:
1. Existing preconditions on the Palestinian side.
2. Israel's refusal to remove blockade from Gaza.
 
Yeah, well, Palestinians beat their wives because of Israelis!

http://www.unwatch.org/un-expert-palestinian-men-beat-wives-israels-fault/

I blame them for not letting me win the lottery.

Hey I like this blame game thing....

Then again, those Israelis are the cream of the crop when it comes to violating women's rights, according to the UN:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016...ael-as-world-s-top-human-rights-violator.html

Palestinian honour killings? ISRAEL!
Pakistani women's right? Nothing compared to ISRAEL!
Saudi Arabia's driving restri...ISRAEL!
 
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DLR_Mysterion
Yeah, well, Palestinians beat their wives because of Israelis!

http://www.unwatch.org/un-expert-palestinian-men-beat-wives-israels-fault/

I blame them for not letting me win the lottery.

Hey I like this blame game thing....

Then again, those Israelis are the cream of the crop when it comes to violating women's rights, according to the UN:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016...ael-as-world-s-top-human-rights-violator.html

Palestinian honour killings? ISRAEL!
Pakistani women's right? Nothing compared to ISRAEL!
Saudi Arabia's driving restri...ISRAEL!
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No one says they are perfect, just that they are human.

Just because Israel gives more rights to it's people then others in it's region doesn't give them a free pass, for everything else.
 
DLR_Mysterion
Yeah, well, Palestinians beat their wives because of Israelis!

http://www.unwatch.org/un-expert-palestinian-men-beat-wives-israels-fault/

I blame them for not letting me win the lottery.

Hey I like this blame game thing....

Then again, those Israelis are the cream of the crop when it comes to violating women's rights, according to the UN:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016...ael-as-world-s-top-human-rights-violator.html

Palestinian honour killings? ISRAEL!
Pakistani women's right? Nothing compared to ISRAEL!
Saudi Arabia's driving restri...ISRAEL!
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This is why the UN has been seen as a joke. They are quick to open their arms to new groups but don't even check if said groups are legitimate. I guess the rest of the middle east pays more "hush money" to keep Israel as the source of all evil.

mustafur
No one says they are perfect, just that they are human.

Just because Israel gives more rights to it's people then others in it's region doesn't give them a free pass, for everything else.
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This is true, but then the grading should be level. If somehow countries who oppress their own people and burn homosexuals rank higher then there is a fundamental flaw with the entire process.
 
Well yes the UN is a joke when Saudi Arabia is on the Human rights council.

But let's be serious here, things are not made easier when you have the Dick Cheney of Israel( Netanyahu)running the shots, he is against the idea of a two state solution no matter what it is, and has expanded settlements more then any Israeli leader in the past.

These problems don't just effect Israel though, the blowback will inevitably fall on who ever supports Israel doing such things, and it's not helped by anyone not supporting expanding settlements as being Anti-Israel it's anti logic.
 
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mustafur
Well yes the UN is a joke when Saudi Arabia is on the Human rights council.
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How did that happen? Did they run out of eligible candidates or were the other options:
Iran
Pakistan
Yemen
Somalia
North Korea
A drunk penguin?
 

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