PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[Tassie_tiger]

That sounds fairly reasonable. This is how I would design it. However, I think non-qualifiers can start in the back. I can't tell you how many days I get a quick race in in the morning before work. If I had to set a time for that, I would not do it.
I say if you change cars, re-qualify or start at the back.

Once you've set a qualy time, it's done.
Just like it is now.
I'm not suggesting to set a qualy before each race. 👍

 

[Sven Jurgens]

To put it simply, I would like to see people required to set a qualy time before racing.
At least that means they have to do some practice before entering a race. Sounds good.
I would like to see them gridded in a position relative to their ability. Sounds fair.
And I would like to see their qualy time relate to their race car. Sounds fair.

I'm not sure how anyone could argue that's not a reasonable idea.

Try starting 5th to 10th on Monza for a while and you'll see

I would like to see people gridded relative to their ability as well, yet that rarely happens. It's the reason I don't want to start mid pack. You usually have some fast qualy times yet not so fast drivers up front. Then you have the low effort qualy yet faster drivers behind. It's not a good place to be in between on a lot of tracks with the way the penalty system works. Any time requirements for qualifying won't fix that.

Fix the penalty system and the problem goes away. Then the correct people get put in the correct rooms according to SR and you don't have the problem of dirty blockers slow racers up front with impatient fast racers behind. The order will still be mixed up, yet when the front defends fairly and the back shows some patience everything will be fine.

Anyway first thing that should have been fixed a long time ago, invalidate the lap time when going outside track limits, penalty or not. You might as well learn to drive on the actual track while qualifying

I don't really believe in hot lapping for practice. Imo it conditions people to stick to one line which causes a lot of incidents in races. The car handles differently as well in the race, brake points are different especially when behind another car. The best place to learn to race is in the race. Now, I'm not opposed to requiring people to complete the track experience before unlocking a track in sport mode. People should at least know where to brake and where not to brake. It's amazing how a lot of people (with qualifying times) don't know the basics...

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Try starting 5th to 10th on Monza for a while and you'll see

I would like to see people gridded relative to their ability as well, yet that rarely happens. It's the reason I don't want to start mid pack. You usually have some fast qualy times yet not so fast drivers up front. Then you have the low effort qualy yet faster drivers behind. It's not a good place to be in between on a lot of tracks with the way the penalty system works. Any time requirements for qualifying won't fix that.

Fix the penalty system and the problem goes away. Then the correct people get put in the correct rooms according to SR and you don't have the problem of dirty blockers slow racers up front with impatient fast racers behind. The order will still be mixed up, yet when the front defends fairly and the back shows some patience everything will be fine.

Anyway first thing that should have been fixed a long time ago, invalidate the lap time when going outside track limits, penalty or not. You might as well learn to drive on the actual track while qualifying

I don't really believe in hot lapping for practice. Imo it conditions people to stick to one line which causes a lot of incidents in races. The car handles differently as well in the race, brake points are different especially when behind another car. The best place to learn to race is in the race. Now, I'm not opposed to requiring people to complete the track experience before unlocking a track in sport mode. People should at least know where to brake and where not to brake. It's amazing how a lot of people (with qualifying times) don't know the basics...

I've started races in all sorts of grid positions, including at Monza.

I realise you enjoy the challenge of starting at the back.
So I understand why you would be against my suggestion.
And that's fine. 👍

 

[Veinz]

All you are describing is the early stages of the practice process for any activity. I've done lots of sports, and it's the same process every time. I try to achieve a given act (home run, long pass, whatever). At first. I can't do it at all. Then, I can do it ok, but not well. Then I get what could be termed a "golden" execution. Then, golden becomes a regular occurrence. Lastly, "golden" becomes the norm. No one performs well on a regular basis without putting in the time.

I don't believe in the whole golden lap thing either, at least in the lobbies I join. 99% of A+ and A DR drivers I see are fast and very consistent during the races, I have to do a **** load of practice to keep up with them. The ones who do massive cuts are still very fast on the other parts of the track. If the track limits were more strict, they would still be at the top.

Racing people like this makes it relatively easy to maintain max SR. Very few are unpredictable or do malicious things.

 

[Dorofint]

I don't believe in the whole golden lap thing either, at least in the lobbies I join. 99% of A+ and A DR drivers I see are fast and very consistent during the races, I have to do a **** load of practice to keep up with them. The ones who do massive cuts are still very fast on the other parts of the track. If the track limits were more strict, they would still be at the top.

Racing people like this makes it relatively easy to maintain max SR. Very few are unpredictable or do malicious things.

I believe you about that. But you drive with A+ and A drivers. Almost all of these drivers are fast and know the rules. Unfortunately, I am only a B driver and often have C and D drivers in the field. There, the races are sometimes quite different than in your race although all drivers are mostly SR S. In my race I see a lot of dirty or over motivated drivers. Many try to balance their lack of speed or consistency with high risk or dirty tricks. It just makes a big difference with who you drive. If I look at the races of the top 200 drivers they are great and very fair. But that's not the case with worse drivers. I think the different opinions on the topic are very much related to the race we are experiencing. Good drivers who ride with other good drivers do not see a problem and mediocre riders who ride with other mediocre or bad riders experience one catastrophic after the other. Basically, the system should offer great races for all riders. But it does not do it for a variety of reasons. One of the main reasons in my opinion are the wrong penalties and the errors in the track limits.

 

[rono_thomas]

I think the different opinions on the topic are very much related to the race we are experiencing. Good drivers who ride with other good drivers do not see a problem and mediocre riders who ride with other mediocre or bad riders experience one catastrophic after the other.

The idea of the rating system is to group like drivers with like drivers. Which you explain above.

I honestly think that its more to do with expectations, the difference even between B dr and A dr rated drivers is huge and can quite easily be picked up by just watching replays of two drivers without knowing their dr.

What am I getting at? The point being that without an understanding of being able to drive the quickest line from A to B around a track its logical to expect that racecraft would also be poor and therefore catastrophic incidents are more likely.

 

[Dorofint]

The idea of the rating system is to group like drivers with like drivers. Which you explain above.

I honestly think that its more to do with expectations, the difference even between B dr and A dr rated drivers is huge and can quite easily be picked up by just watching replays of two drivers without knowing their dr.

What am I getting at? The point being that without an understanding of being able to drive the quickest line from A to B around a track its logical to expect that racecraft would also be poor and therefore catastrophic incidents are more likely.

Absolutely right. My problem is that although I am a very fair and clean driver but my speed is only mediocre. I have family and kids and just do not have as much time to exercise as needed for A or A +. But I still have a good understanding of the races and want to have a fair race. My problem is that I often have to drive with drivers who are totally over motivated and sometimes dirty. I would just like to have clean races with riders who have a similar speed but are fair. That's basically the problem. With DR and SR that should theoretically be possible. In reality, this does not work because there are the errors I have mentioned in the system.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

The idea of the rating system is to group like drivers with like drivers. Which you explain above.

I honestly think that its more to do with expectations, the difference even between B dr and A dr rated drivers is huge and can quite easily be picked up by just watching replays of two drivers without knowing their dr.

What am I getting at? The point being that without an understanding of being able to drive the quickest line from A to B around a track its logical to expect that racecraft would also be poor and therefore catastrophic incidents are more likely.

Yet the rating system fails to group like drivers with like drivers.

This week I'm down to C/S and on the way down there are plenty people with great race craft. There are also a lot with bad race craft, and the occasional dirty driver.

There is a difference between starting at the top or in the back. Start at the top you have all the time in the world to prepare an overtake. The pool of players at the top is much smaller, reputations are more valued, less anonimity, and far less cars to over take if you're aiming for a win.

It's not logical to expect that slower drivers have worse race craft. I've seen terrible race craft from A+ pole sitters that crash and try to barge their way back to the front. If anything, the slower drivers have more patience and don't feel entitled or the pressure of having to finish at the top. Yes, there are more stupid moves at the back. Understandable as there are less positions to lose and much more to gain as opposed to being in 3rd where a mistake can be very costly.

The rating system is to separate the patient, carfeul, contact free racers with good racecraft from the rest. It's not doing that very well. Sure it's better at SR.S yet there are still far too many incidents for it being SR.S.

 

[rono_thomas]

It's not logical to expect that slower drivers have worse race craft

Not disagreeing with you here, but the importance difference that I did say was that it’s logical to expect more incidents in lower DR, because DR is a measurement in essence of finishing position, unfortunately as @Dorofint’s example shows thats likely to group the people who cant keep the car on track but have poor racecraft but can be quick, with slower drivers who have have good racecraft.

Im also not saying that there are no A+ drivers that have poor racecraft but there are far fewer.


For me there needs to be another category of measurement, just like you’ve mentioned before, something historic, perhaps how many incidents your involved in over an accumulative amount of races, this is where DR reset could be used in a more logical way. For you to stay in A+ an x amount of incidents are allowed, drop beneath this then you get demoted, likewise to be promoted that x amount of incidents needs to be less than whatever x should be, and this replicated downwards through the DR groupings.

 

[weazelgt]

Seems like merging the NA and SA people made it even worse, last night was a **** show. It was bad all night and on the last race before I lost it I came out of the chicane and a dude in a ferrari starts bouncing his car off my side all the way down the track trying to knock me off, it doesn't work but then the guy behind me punts me into the wall at the hairpin. I spend the rest of the race chasing these clowns down and take them out and then I get a message saying that my next collision I will be disqualified. One of the idiots nails me from behind again and sure enough I get disqualified.

I think I'm done with this game, its just a horrible ****ing mess and not worth anyones time. The people playing this game are the same type of person that races in Grand Theft Auto, sadly.

 

[rono_thomas]

. I spend the rest of the race chasing these clowns down and take them out

The people playing this game are the same type of person that races in Grand Theft Auto, sadly.

 

[Gage128888]

i love how this guy can post bad words and crap in here and his post stays but when i post something that has bad words that really gets to them they delete my post i bet its because i was right about what i was complaining about and they didnt wanna get ganged up on by everyone agreeing with me sad life

 

[daan]

i love how this guy can post bad words and crap in here and his post stays but when i post something that has bad words that really gets to them they delete my post i bet its because i was right about what i was complaining about and they didnt wanna get ganged up on by everyone agreeing with me sad life

I'd take a guess that your posts are being removed because they are unreadable rubbish.

 

[weazelgt]

RONO_THOMAS... I was a very clean driver and worked my way to A, A but sadly it doesn't matter who you're racing in this game, most are douchebags. You must be one of them, is that why you had to post that?

Yes, I chased them down... I have had enough of the ******** and have given up trying to race clean on a track full of idiots.

 

[HERE4BEER3]

I recently came back from a 2 month hiatus from GT Sport, I raced my first race last night since coming back.

My thoughts on the penalty system for SR down is that it penalizes the exact opposite of who should be penalized.

So I was having a close race with another driver, I was slightly ahead of him. After a few laps he decides to go for it and takes the inside of a turn and rides me along the inside, bumping me off to the outside. Sure enough I get an SR down. His move wasn't anything to egregious, he just took the inside and used my car to stay on the inside, I was able to maintain control of my car. So I figure "Okay, that's how you want to race?" So I did the same move he did to me on the next possible turn. I forced myself to the inside, rode him through the turn and I come out of the turn ahead and with no SR penalty, I assume he got one like I did previously.

Now call me crazy, but I would think the aggressive driver who forces his way to the inside and basically pushes the driver he is passing out of the way should be the one being penalized, not the other way around.

 

[rono_thomas]

most are douchebags. You must be one of them, is that why you had to post that?

You can check for yourself surely to confirm douchebag status?

I actually didnt post anything - not of my own, they were your own posts, so I guess using your logic your calling yourself one?

 

[weazelgt]

yeah its broken, here4beer.

 

[Mr616]

RONO_THOMAS... I was a very clean driver and worked my way to A, A but sadly it doesn't matter who you're racing in this game, most are douchebags. You must be one of them, is that why you had to post that?

Yes, I chased them down... I have had enough of the ******** and have given up trying to race clean on a track full of idiots.

I'd put a lid on the emotion and wind your neck in a touch. SR:S is easily achievable with a bit of racecraft and respect for your opponents.

Don't retaliate, drive your own race trying to avoid contact and your experience will improve. Or don't listen, keep doing what you are doing and your experience will be crap. Choice is yours.

 

[VolkswagenX]

For me there needs to be another category of measurement, just like you’ve mentioned before, something historic, perhaps how many incidents your involved in over an accumulative amount of races, this is where DR reset could be used in a more logical way. For you to stay in A+ an x amount of incidents are allowed, drop beneath this then you get demoted, likewise to be promoted that x amount of incidents needs to be less than whatever x should be, and this replicated downwards through the DR groupings.

I don't think we need another category, what we need are penalties that do what they are supposed to do. When you can take a win by taking out the person in first position without penalty, than the penalty system is useless. Being able to lose a 3 second penalty in one second should not be possible but we see it all the time in GTS. An actual penalty system that penalizes bad behavior will make it harder for punters to gain DR and will reward players that drive clean.

I'd put a lid on the emotion and wind your neck in a touch. SR:S is easily achievable with a bit of racecraft and respect for your opponents.

I have seen many SR S drivers with bad behavior. You don't need race craft to achieve SR S.

 

[weazelgt]

It doesn't matter what level of SR you race against, like you said, S is easily attainable. 90% or more of the drivers in this game would rather wreck you than try and race you. It doesn't matter what PD does, this won't change.

 

[HERE4BEER3]

It doesn't matter what level of SR you race against, like you said, S is easily attainable. 90% or more of the drivers in this game would rather wreck you than try and race you. It doesn't matter what PD does, this won't change.

Yup. In the scenario I mentioned earlier, the opponent I was racing with came back and did the same move to the inside again. This time a little rougher, and I tried to avoid contact so I hit the grass a bit and lost a few 10ths, nothing major. But I decided that's not how I race so I didn't try the move again.


You pretty much have to sacrifice a few positions for the sake of racing clean. Usually the only way to pass some guys is to get a little rough, but that tends starts a battle you don't want to be in if your trying to maintain SR 99.

 

[rono_thomas]

You pretty much have to sacrifice a few positions for the sake of racing clean. Usually the only way to pass some guys is to get a little rough, but that tends starts a battle you don't want to be in if your trying to maintain SR 99.

You do not need to sacrifice DR for the sake of SR.

 

[Mr616]

I have seen many SR S drivers with bad behavior. You don't need race craft to achieve SR S.

I agree. My post was replying to somebody who was SR:A though. Once at SR:S, your experience will improve, but you really need to hold an SR of 96 upwards. You'll still come across idiots, but the poster I was replying to quoted 90% or more drive like idiots, which is just wrong (at SR:S anyway).

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Not disagreeing with you here, but the importance difference that I did say was that it’s logical to expect more incidents in lower DR, because DR is a measurement in essence of finishing position, unfortunately as @Dorofint’s example shows thats likely to group the people who cant keep the car on track but have poor racecraft but can be quick, with slower drivers who have have good racecraft.

Im also not saying that there are no A+ drivers that have poor racecraft but there are far fewer.


For me there needs to be another category of measurement, just like you’ve mentioned before, something historic, perhaps how many incidents your involved in over an accumulative amount of races, this is where DR reset could be used in a more logical way. For you to stay in A+ an x amount of incidents are allowed, drop beneath this then you get demoted, likewise to be promoted that x amount of incidents needs to be less than whatever x should be, and this replicated downwards through the DR groupings.

I mostly agree with you, except the replication downwards. I'm not sure if you mean that it should be easier at lower DR, which is the part I don't agree with if you were trying to say that. SR and DR should be two separate measurements imo with no influence on each other.

SR is the primary match factor so who cares when there are A+/E drivers. Let them play with other SR.E drivers and be king of the **** pile SR deductions and time penalties should not be lower for lower DR. SR.S should be as hard to maintain for DR.D as it is for DR.A+. The more forgiving nature of the SR system at lower DR is what's causing the extra friction at lower DR levels, made worse by DR resets mixing in the bad fast apples with the clean slower crowd.

SR is too easy to gain and to lose as it is now. In SR.E you can gain 50 SR in one clean daily C race, probably more this week as Tsukaba is already worth 24 SR in SR.S.

There are many ways to improve the SR system:
- Average over time, last 10 races for example.
- Deduct SR for reckless driving, going outside track limits, touching walls, spinning out (without involvement of other cars)
- Require a clean race bonus to enter the next SR bracket, 2 consecutive for SR.S.
- Equalize the max SR gains for race A,B and C. For example, A max 5, B max 7, C max 12 and lower the boosts for SR.E to SR.C
- Do not mix different SR classes in races, the rules are too different.

Of course first fix the faulty penalties

 

[rono_thomas]

I mostly agree with you, except the replication downwards. I'm not sure if you mean that it should be easier at lower DR, which is the part I don't agree with if you were trying to say that. SR and DR should be two separate measurements imo with no influence on each other.

I meant replication as in the same for “promotion” from E / D, D / C etc as well as demotion.

Part of me thinks that SR is easy to gain because its potentially easy to lose, easy to lose because the penalties may not be right, and because it can be gamed.

Also agreed that there should be no differentiation between categories for penalties, while Im thinking about it the cynic in me thinks that just like the SR thought above PD realise that with a system that is too strict the lower ranks would swell, meaning matchmaking at the top of the “pyramid” would be even worse than it already is.

 

[HERE4BEER3]

You do not need to sacrifice DR for the sake of SR.

I find I need to alot of the time. Like I said sometimes the only way to pass a guy is to get aggressive and do it with a bit of contact. If you can't get way ahead of them right away they tend to try to get you back on the next turn. Some guys try and kill you on the next turn if you so much as touch them. So I usually sit back and wait for a mistake, but at the higher level those mistakes don't always happen. On the otherside, if someone is coming up behind me they usually bump me a few times trying to pass so I'll move over and give them the inside rather than risk them putting me into the dirt.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I meant replication as in the same for “promotion” from E / D, D / C etc as well as demotion.

Part of me thinks that SR is easy to gain because its potentially easy to lose, easy to lose because the penalties may not be right, and because it can be gamed.

Also agreed that there should be no differentiation between categories for penalties, while Im thinking about it the cynic in me thinks that just like the SR thought above PD realise that with a system that is too strict the lower ranks would swell, meaning matchmaking at the top of the “pyramid” would be even worse than it already is.

Perhaps, yet I have been getting consistent full C/S rooms now I'm in DR.C. I always wondered where the C/S drivers were, no clue why you get D/S mixed in with the A/S rooms all the time? Anyway, there seems to be plenty room for some culling in the lower DR/S ranks.

I just went back to DR.B and now have a mixed B/S C/S room next. Matchmaking is working at the lower ranks, yet SR could be a lot more strict. On KP SR.S in 15%, higher than SR.A. You would expect that SR.S is the smallest group.

 

[D-Max]

I find I need to alot of the time. Like I said sometimes the only way to pass a guy is to get aggressive and do it with a bit of contact. If you can't get way ahead of them right away they tend to try to get you back on the next turn. Some guys try and kill you on the next turn if you so much as touch them. So I usually sit back and wait for a mistake, but at the higher level those mistakes don't always happen. On the otherside, if someone is coming up behind me they usually bump me a few times trying to pass so I'll move over and give them the inside rather than risk them putting me into the dirt.

As mentioned, racecraft. If you are that close to someone and quick enough to sit back, then you are obviously faster. It’s not always a mistake that makes someone passable, it’s the turns that you are faster. Read your opponent and see where you are the better driver and make your move.

My last 2 races on this weeks group 4 daily I’ve been using the cayman. I get destroyed in most places by the fwd cars but where I excel is after the hairpin. I’ve taken my time and used my ability to make most of my passes through that section

 

[VolkswagenX]

I agree. My post was replying to somebody who was SR:A though. Once at SR:S, your experience will improve, but you really need to hold an SR of 96 upwards. You'll still come across idiots, but the poster I was replying to quoted 90% or more drive like idiots, which is just wrong (at SR:S anyway).

To me it sounded like you said that everything will be ok once you get to SR S. Sorry if I misunderstood. I replied because at SR 99 (only DR C) and most of the people I encounter have terrible race craft. All my opponents are at SR S and are fast on a q lap but can't do a clean pass. It's not like they position their car to make a move, they just drive through you like you're not there. The worse that can happen is a 3 second penalty that they will serve at the line and doesn't have a penalizing effect. You can win a race this way and still increase in DR and keeping SR still in the S rating. A good penalty system encourages clean driving, the current penalty system rewards bad behavior.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Is there any chance that the FIA race penalty system comes to the daily races? Really getting tired of people gaining DR with dirty driving..