Plane crash in Southern France.

[McLaren]

The best method IMO would be to redesign the door locking system.
If a pilot has locked out the other pilot, the other pilot can use an emergency code that will open to the door straight away regardless if the pilot has flipped the switch to LOCK, this code can change daily like it does in some military bases.

That's already in place & was over-ridden.

Lubitz deployed a five-minute override when captain Patrick Sonderheimer tried to re-enter the cockpit after briefly leaving, thwarting Sonderheimer’s attempt to punch in an emergency number that would open the door.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...tigation-press-conference-live-updates-4u9525

 

[CodeRedR51]

In this situation I'd take my chances.

Yeah I would rather strap on a parachute and jump out of the plane with only seconds to figure out how to open the chute and have a chance at living, than go down in the plane with zero chance of surviving.

 

[Sanji Himura]

I'm quite a nervous flyer myself, for years i didn't want to fly until i gave in because of practical reasons, so all possible disaster scenarios run through my head when i step on one although i try to calm myself (usually involving some booze).

I thought of this before, 'what if' the pilot wants to kill himself? With these anti hijacking doors he could just lock out his colleague (i was hoping there was an emergency code to get back in, yet i didn't know it could be overwritten in the cockpit).

Now a full passenger airplane had to crash killing 150 innocent folks before they are gonna revise that system and take that scenario into account themselves... Very sad indeed.

It's redesign is going to have to do something with biometrics, that much I can promise you.

 

[Grayfox]

That's already in place & was over-ridden.

I am talking about a way to by pass any lock out command that a pilot may enter with the use of a code that changes daily.

What good is this security door if it keeps out people that should belong in the cockpit as well as the people that shouldn't belong in there?

It's redesign is going to have to do something with biometrics, that much I can promise you.

Biometrics are not that secure, kill one person that can get in and use their finger print, eye, palm print to unlock the door.

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/03/27/03/39/tributes-flow-for-melb-plane-crash-duo

Funny there use to be 3 people in the cockpit.
Pilot, Co-Pilot and Flight Engineer.

Once cockpits became computerized the role of the flight engineer was not needed.
I wonder how many airlines will want to follow with this 3rd person in the cockpit and how many jobs or cost cutting will be done because of it

 

[terminator363]

Going back to emergency precautions have you seen this?:

(Skip to 6:40)

 

[Barra333]

I can't believe I'm entertaining the idea... but some chance of survival is better than none. That said, you'd need to set up a line-chute (where the chute begins to deploy in part as you leave the aircraft) and you have to egress in a way that allows you to clear the tailplanes. Airlane passengers aren't trained parachutists.

I have done enough flying to know this could never work. There are far too many people who struggle with the concept of sequentially numbered rows to even contemplate giving them a parachute. I wish I had a dollar for every person I have seen backtrack down the aisle because they passed their seat.

 

[NLxAROSA]

They can implement all the security features at the door they want, but that still won't stop the pilot(s) is/are the attacker(s) scenario. The only way to stop that is to have a remote failsafe (e.g. operated from the airport).

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

"Malfunction with the door" is absurd. I can't see a reason for one pilot to not be in the cockpit during such a critical maneuver. (The decent).

It was steady (the descent), and thus potentially not noticeable from outside the cockpit until the mountains got closer to those outside the cockpit. You know the area where the yolk and instrument panels and readings cant be seen. Also how is the door malfunctioning absurd? A fuse can be tampered with, without be noticed but it can't possibly blow...which indicates a malfunction or even just a full burn out of wires in general. It's an old plane, things tend to happen when least expected so say "absurd" is the only absurd thing about it at this point.

I want to see if the recording reveals knocks before or during the decent. The only other scenario that is as plausible as suicide is the cabin filling with thick smoke making it impossible for the pilot to use the keypad.

...what...?

Anyways since those groups are now confirming that it was deliberate, it would fine to say it since those sources investigating and at the heart are the only ones with the tools and current knowledge to siphon through the facts and come to the conclusion. You nor the original user doing that had such an ability and were just "assuming" with the guise of "I'm correct cause I don't know what else". Every dog has their day as it goes.

 

[Barra333]

I am going to try this one last time...

Guessed?
I stated a fact and the statement of a fact can only be true or untrue, never a guess.
How can a statement be wrong, if it is true?

At the time, you made a guess as to what the cause of the crash was. Yes, it turns out it was true, but at that time, you did not have enough information (or did, and refused to share) for it to be more than a guess.

The statement was:

Based in all information that we known at moment, the only reason for the crash is a suicide.​

The only way for this statement not to be true, is if there is another reason (or explanation) based in the information that we had when I posted it for the first time (before the revelation of the contents of the cockpit voice recorder).

There were other possibilities before the revelation of the CVR data - did you miss the discussion about the decompression and CFIT?

You said early (also before that revelation) on another post:

there are myriad explanations

So, if you said this, certainly it is very easy for you to produce one explanation who prove (like you has claimed in various comments) that my statement is untrue.
Of course, if you can not produce that, then my statement is true and you has posted a bunch of garbage about it.

Again, before the CVR data was released, there were multiple possible explanations, including suicide and the decompression mentioned above. Yes, it turns out that the CFIT theory was incorrect, but based on the information we had at the time, it was not a bunch of garbage. Just because your suicide theory turned out to be the correct one, that doesn't excuse the fact that you were stating that it was the only option before the relevant information was available.

If your attitude from the start was
Based in all information that we known at moment, suicide is still a possibility.
instead of
Based in all information that we known at moment, the only reason for the crash is a suicide.
We wouldn't be wasting our time with this conversation.

 

[terminator363]

...what...?

My comments were from before the fact that we thought the pilot hijacked the plan.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

My comments were from before the fact that we thought the pilot hijacked the plan.

That's not a fact. Are you saying your thoughts were from before you actually knew what had happened and then only could confirm it with a later fact that just recently came out in the last 24 hours?

Either way doesn't matter at this point since we know the reality of the situation due to the investigation teams. Now all one could do is ponder ideas of how to prevent said situation from happening.

 

[squadops]

...what...?

Unruly passengers?

 

[McLaren]

I am talking about a way to by pass any lock out command that a pilot may enter with the use of a code that changes daily.

What good is this security door if it keeps out people that should belong in the cockpit as well as the people that shouldn't belong in there?

Spohr said that it appears the captain punched in the emergency number into the cockpit door to gain entry, but the co-pilot deployed the five-minute over-ride. He said that, irrespective of all the sophisticated safety devices, “you can never exclude such an individual event”, adding “no system in the world could manage to do that”.

It was never assumed the very person inside the cockpit would use the override code against a fellow pilot.

 

[squadops]

There should be armed air marshals on every flight, I know in the U.S. there where quite a few in the late 60's in response to hijackings.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

There should be armed air marshals on every flight, I know in the U.S. there where quite a few in the late 60's in response to hijackings.

Yeah but how does that solve the issue of what happened here. There needs to be something engineered to prevent this. The air marshal solution doesn't work here.

 

[squadops]

It doesn't? What if he was in the cockpit? Maybe they wouldn't need the cockpit door to be a vault? It could be the simple fact of his presence would have deterred the co-pilot.

It's a better idea than a parachute

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

It doesn't? What if he was in the cockpit? Maybe they wouldn't need the cockpit door to be a vault? It could be the simple fact of his presence would have deterred the co-pilot.

It's a better idea than a parachute

...One problem with this...Liam Neeson showed us why even Air Marshals have a bad day

 

[TenEightyOne]

It was never assumed the very person inside the cockpit would use the override code against a fellow pilot.

Precisely. Ultimately the pilot (or first officer) have to be trusted. Remote monitoring/control wouldn't work (the government can't even keep its computers secure, let alone a budget airline), cockpits have to be accessible to the pilots.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Precisely. Ultimately the pilot (or first officer) have to be trusted. Remote monitoring/control wouldn't work (the government can't even keep its computers secure, let alone a budget airline), cockpits have to be accessible to the pilots.

So perhaps an override code that can't be tampered with or a double security system where the second key pad only comes in use for these very rare emergencies. However, I agree that an evolution in Auto-pilot systems should happen as well as these quick and simple fixes.

The simple fixes just iron out these very rare incidents, the big fix irons out all other situations that end in the same tragic result. Whether it be this or pilots passing out or something else.

 

[TenEightyOne]

So perhaps an override code that can't be tampered with or a double security system where the second key pad only comes in use for these very rare emergencies. However, I agree that an evolution in Auto-pilot systems should happen as well as these quick and simple fixes.

The simple fixes just iron out these very rare incidents, the big fix irons out all other situations that end in the same tragic result. Whether it be this or pilots passing out or something else.

But after 11/9 airlines have to ensure that someone with "insider knowledge" (or someone with a gun to the head of someone with insider knowledge) isn't able to open the door. Ultimately the pilot has to have full control of cockpit security. When the pilot is the weak link then it's all academic.

Evolving autopilot systems... are you suggesting that with a living, breathing pilot in the cockpit that the autopilot should have the discretion to lock him/her out of the controls and to fly the aircraft? I think we'd see a rise in the number of crashes to be honest.

All the legislation in the world won't stop a single human on a single day who wants to do something bad.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

But after 11/9 airlines have to ensure that someone with "insider knowledge" (or someone with a gun to the head of someone with insider knowledge) isn't able to open the door. Ultimately the pilot has to have full control of cockpit security. When the pilot is the weak link then it's all academic.

Then nothing gets solved if everyone always worries about that. I'm saying an override from the outside for when things like this happen again as unlikely as it seems, that only the pilot or co-pilot should know. Separate codes as well for each.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Then nothing gets solved if everyone always worries about that. I'm saying an override from the outside for when things like this happen again as unlikely as it seems, that only the pilot or co-pilot should know. Separate codes as well for each.

How many serving airline pilots are there in the world now? How much of a secret would the override be, and how do you stop it being operated by someone with a gun to their head?

Remember that until the pilot crashes the plane we don't know that he's not just a normal pilot who doesn't want to crash the plane. In the Germanwings crash there was nobody unauthorised in the cockpit.

 

[Ibonibo]

Yeah I would rather strap on a parachute and jump out of the plane with only seconds to figure out how to open the chute and have a chance at living, than go down in the plane with zero chance of surviving.

Doesn't the plane have to have a certain speed and be at a certain alltitude for a jump to be even survivable?

Funny there use to be 3 people in the cockpit.
Pilot, Co-Pilot and Flight Engineer.

Yup


On the other side, a 2 person rule would be easy to implement. But as sad as this is, you can not get 100% security. It's like a gost driver driving deliberatly into an other vehicule.

If the pilot wouldn't have left, the 1st officer could have knock him out if totally committed.
...

Maybe implement some psyc tests on regular even if it still gives 100% security as even there can be people slipping through the security net.

Yesterday on the newschannel, there was a pilot telling a story about an other pilot that learned minutes before the fly that his wife was getting a divorce and was clearing out the house while he was there at work.
That pilot said he was able to fly...

In situations like these there needs to be a lock down on pilots, maybe a reevaluation...

But no matter how much we try to secure it, 100% securiy never will exist, same as with terrorists, same as on the road....

It's especially sad when such a large number of people get ripped out of life from one second to another... but we shouldn't jump the gun

 

[Grayfox]

Yesterday on the newschannel, there was a pilot telling a story about an other pilot that learned minutes before the fly that his wife was getting a divorce and was clearing out the house while he was there at work.
That pilot said he was able to fly...

In situations like these there needs to be a lock down on pilots, maybe a reevaluation.

Think your thinking of this, where the flight engineer tried to hijack the plane and crash it for the life insurance his wife would get.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705

I have watched way too much air crash investigation.

 

[TenEightyOne]

In their statement, prosecutors said they seized medical documents from the Mr Lubitz's home indicated "an existing illness and appropriate medical treatment".

But "the fact that, among the documents found, there were sick notes - torn-up, current and for the day of the crash - leads to the provisional assessment that the deceased was hiding his illness from his employer", the report states.

Is this a different illness from the depression that we know about?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32087203

 

[Robin]

News is reporting a 'Significant Find' during the search of his home. They haven't said what it is yet. Might be a note or something on his computer etc.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The way I see it, a 2 persons in the cockpit rule is still a good idea but won't entirely prevent the possibility of suicide by plane. The remaining pilot could simply pummel the other person into unconciousness, then proceed to ditch the airplane. The use of a secret override would also make the plane vulnerable to terrorism. Take the pilot's family hostage, have the video uploaded to a phone, then play the video for the pilot as he returns from the john. "We have your kids and we know you have a secret code the bypasses the lock...etc."

 

[Ibonibo]

Latest news are that they found in his flat in Düsseldorf, medical certificated that he shreded, apparently also for the day of the flight.

Certificated are from psyciatrics and neurology. So he shouldn't have been at work, hid it from his employer....

What his actual illness now is is still not know, undisclosed.

But after a burnout, depression, and then this now. Seems like he had a severe fallback into a depression....

 

[Johnnypenso]

Latest news are that they found in his flat in Düsseldorf, medical certificated that he shreded, apparently also for the day of the flight.

Certificated are from psyciatrics and neurology. So he shouldn't have been at work, hid it from his employer....

What his actual illness now is is still not know, undisclosed.

But after a burnout, depression, and then this now. Seems like he had a severe fallback into a depression....

I missed the part about his former burnout and depression. Is there a link for that?

 

[Ibonibo]

http://www.n24.de/n24/Nachrichten/P...ilot-verheimlichte-psychische-erkrankung.html

Use google translate...

The burnout seems to be in 2009 when he took a break from his training.
The depression was before he got hired by geman wings.

Apparently he had a special entry (SIC) in the agency for flights for regular checkups because of this

I get most information from the Tv channels