Project CARS 3: General Discussion Thread - Out August 28th, 2020 on XB1/PS4/PC

[Benny44]

Checks notes....

...'Nathan Bell, Online Marking Director'

....kind of needs to do PR well!


The customer is not always right, but how you communicate that to the customer is actually far more important, and the manner in which Nathan and his dad have always worked on that has never been good. I learnt working customer service for an automotive OEM.

I'm an ardent fan of the Project Cars series, I have been since the first one came out, but any objective view of the marketing from the company shows it's been one of a company that is fine when they get positive feedback and praise, but the moment they have to deal with issues (be they real or not) they are defensive, dismissive and at times insulting and condescending. It's an area of the SMS business that I firmly believe Codemasters needs to (and given Ian's silence on PC3 already is) get a firm hand on.

They're usually dismissive and argumentative with people who deserve it, to be quite honest. I appreciate that its not the same PR BS that most companies do. But I also realize that in this day and age of social media, what you say and how you say it is important. More important than actions, IMO. Public perception can make or break companies. I do think it's a little too overly sensitive, though, to be upset at 'if you don't like it, don't buy it'. It's 100% the truth

 

[Famine]

Don't forget this is the forum where Ian Bell received death threats.

Can you clarify which forum you're talking about?

If it's theirs, that's pretty stupid behaviour from someone; if it's ours the user would no longer have an account nor would ever have an account again... as a starting point.

 

[gregc]

Can you clarify which forum you're talking about?

If it's theirs, that's pretty stupid behaviour from someone; if it's ours the user would no longer have an account nor would ever have an account again... as a starting point.

It happened on theirs.

 

[Benny44]

I've been on here a long time and don't remember a death threat. As much as I sometimes disagree with people on here, I find it overall a good community and hope that never happened

 

[Scaff]

They're usually dismissive and argumentative with people who deserve it, to be quite honest. I appreciate that its not the same PR BS that most companies do. But I also realize that in this day and age of social media, what you say and how you say it is important. More important than actions, IMO. Public perception can make or break companies. I do think it's a little too overly sensitive, though, to be upset at 'if you don't like it, don't buy it'. It's 100% the truth

Having followed the AMA's, the Discord and the official forums (the latter since the days of the very first PC) I can assure you that its not only those they consider being dismissive or argumentative, I've seen it happen with people asking perfectly valid and honest questions. It's also happened on here, the very fact that a moderator on the official forums has created a thread that is specifically an echo chamber that will see any negative comment removed is an example of the kind of culture they have created (and take a look at the end result of exactly how many people are posting in it). The official forums have a reputation for banning people they consider to be too critical (regardless of attitude).

Let's be honest 'if you don't like it, don't buy it can be easily framed in a better way, and would not have even be needed if the very people trying to validate using comments of that nature had not lied to the audience in the first place. The vast majority of the negative feedback could have been easily avoided if they actually had an online marketing director wh actually knew what that job role entails (ironically I type this while taking a break from writing a paper for my masters on Digital and Social Media Marketing).

Can you clarify which forum you're talking about?

If it's theirs, that's pretty stupid behaviour from someone; if it's ours the user would no longer have an account nor would ever have an account again... as a starting point.

I certainly don't recall that happening at all, and quite agree that action would have been taken above a simple ban from the forums (as most certainly has happened in the past).

 

[Benny44]

Who here has had their comment removed? Everyone acting like this is 'what they do'. And why was it removed? Was the question or statement said in at least a semi-literate way without mocking and belittling?

The ridiculous claim earlier that people latched onto because it fits their narrative of 'deleting comments on Twitter'.... I'd still like to know how that's possible on Twitter. It's just said and everyone is saying tsk tsk without checking the facts. Maybe you can, and I don't know. But someone who clearly hates SMS and has said as much spouting that shouldn't be taken at their word.

I'm still in disagreement about PR @Scaff .But I'm also probably a lot older than you, and things have certainly changed. I hate PR speak and worrying about the way a question is framed

This is a legitimate question though - did Konan start a thread here? I started a hype thread. But that was me.

 

[Northstar]

Forums are for discussion and they're dictating what the discussion can be about.

Which is well within their rights as owners of the forum. Again, they're using that control in a negative way and the entire company ends up looking bad as a result, but technically speaking there is nothing wrong with how they are running their forum.

 

[Wolfe]

Freedom of speech is still a principle outside of the 1A or a private platform's right to moderate speech, IMHO. It is something to ideally uphold in a certain balance and fairness with that right to moderate.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Which is well within their rights as owners of the forum. Again, they're using that control in a negative way and the entire company ends up looking bad as a result, but technically speaking there is nothing wrong with how they are running their forum.

Yeah im not denying its within their rights. Just saying given the situation its only serving to make things worse for themselves.

 

[Benny44]

Did he actually remove comments though? Was said comment abusive/profanity-laden/mocking? Again, you're just going by what @Sam714 is saying. The same one who said they're deleting Twitter comments. And taking one comment without any surrounding conversation can be taken out of context very easily.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Did he actually remove comments though? Was said comment abusive/profanity-laden/mocking? Again, you're just going by what @Sam714 is saying. The same one who said they're deleting Twitter comments. And taking one comment without any surrounding conversation can be taken out of context very easily.

And with Twitter it wouldn't be overly surprising anyway as most of that is just abuse.

 

[Benny44]

And with Twitter it wouldn't be overly surprising anyway as most of that is just abuse.

Can you delete Twitter comments though? I don't think you can. You can report it as abuse and Twitter MAY delete it. At least to my understanding

Edit - I believe you can block people, but it still shouldn't just delete your comment

 

[MagpieRacer]

Can you delete Twitter comments though? I don't think you can. You can report it as abuse and Twitter MAY delete it. At least to my understanding

Ah sorry I misunderstood what you meant. I dont belive you can, like you say I think the report method is the only way really. Perhaps its where he's getting confused as if genuine abuse gets reported and the comment gets deleted, it still shows that there was a comment there that was removed. As you say, most likely by twitter.

Blocking hides them from your view but not from everyone else.

 

[PJTierney]

Getting back to the game for a moment, in addition to cars and tracks these pages were added with a brief overview of features:

• https://www.projectcarsgame.com/three/single-player/
  
  
• https://www.projectcarsgame.com/three/multiplayer/

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff .But I'm also probably a lot older than you, and things have certainly changed. I hate PR speak and worrying about the way a question is framed

This is a legitimate question though - did Konan start a thread here? I started a hype thread. But that was me.

I’m 49, and no, the concept of not treating customers or potential customer like arseholes has not changed since I worked customer service over a quarter of a century ago! I worked a number of Trade shows in the UK specifically to interact with negative customers, to treat them well regardless of the complaint because that's far better for the brand than having a public shouting match with them!

 

[amazed]

It happened on theirs.

IIRC someone expressed a wish that he developed cancer. Definitely a good reason to restrict your own posts on your own company's forum.

 

[T0MMY3688]

Can you delete Twitter comments though? I don't think you can. You can report it as abuse and Twitter MAY delete it. At least to my understanding

Edit - I believe you can block people, but it still shouldn't just delete your comment

He can delete his own tweet, that scatters all the comments others have made. The tweet that he said removing pit stops was done early in development is deleted. I can't seem to find it and it just turn up as "unavailable" when I scroll up my reply to it.

 

[Sentry87]

And @Konan has the echo chamber I said he wanted, complete with jolly comments about how a company director ripped a potential customer a new one! Daddy must be so proud of Nathan.


View attachment 947612

A bit appalling. It's one thing to try to suppress opinions. But to go against what you're trying to accomplish which is a constructive, non hostile environment by sinking to their level is another thing.

I haven't seen the original discussion but all this could come back to bite them if their original fan base like me gets totally driven off by this franchise.

*edit*

As for Nathan's role as online marketing director, I used to (still kind of do) worked in customer service. I've never seen someone so easily baited, and in all situations that'd be unacceptable.

 

[Scaff]

A bit appalling. It's one thing to try to suppress opinions. But to go against what you're trying to accomplish which is a constructive, non hostile environment by sinking to their level is another thing.

I haven't seen the original discussion but all this could come back to bite them if their original fan base like me gets totally driven off by this franchise.

*edit*

As for Nathan's role as online marketing director, I used to (still kind of do) worked in customer service. I've never seen someone so easily baited, and in all situations that'd be unacceptable.

Indeed, one of the first things you teach new Customer Relation roles is how to defuse these situations, the technique of matching, mirroring and pacing are all easy to use and put in place; ask questions understand what people actually want, etc. None of it is rocket science, and for a director to seemingly not understand it, let alone be able to put it into practice is something that should be a red flag in any business (regardless of role).

 

[MagpieRacer]

Indeed, one of the first things you teach new Customer Relation roles is how to defuse these situations, the technique of matching, mirroring and pacing are all easy to use and put in place; ask questions understand what people actually want, etc. None of it is rocket science, and for a director to seemingly not understand it, let alone be able to put it into practice is something that should be a red flag in any business (regardless of role).

All of this. I work as a senior advisor for a major UK mobile network, if I spoke to any of my potential or existing customers the way he did, I wouldn't be working there any more. The fact its his job makes it all the more laughable, I'd almost forgive him if he was just there to support daddy and was being a nuisance but the fact his role is online marketing is a bit of a joke when you look at how he conducts himself.

 

[Benny44]

Good post @PJTierney - actual helpful posts get lost because everyone is more concerned about how they market the game than what's in it.

Anyway, I'm curious about the multiplayer modes. While I hope they add private lobbies ASAP, what's there looks decent. Not sure what they all are though. And the career mode looks outstanding to me. Getting old school GT vibes in the best way. I hope what's there will keep me interested until private lobbies are introduced

 

[Konan]

The only reason i created that thread and am going to delete all the negativity has nothing to do with censorship.
Against what most of you think, there ARE in fact people who are interested in the game, pre-ordered it and want to discuss about it. EVERY single thread created about pCARS 3 has ended up in a discussion about the missing features. It should be clear by now to those (and they're always the same ones) repetitive complainers that those features are not going to be implemented at any stage of the game.
I tried all the "common sense" arguments but they kept coming back. I could have easily deleted the negativity out of all those threads and ban the posters for trolling... I did not...
The only thing us "likers" wanted was to discuss the game in peace, they have all the other threads to spew their negativity in.
If trying to stop the useless arguments is a bad move, so be it, but no alternative motives are hidden here.
I have nothing to hide nor do i try to hide anything, i'm recognized everywhere because my name is the same everywhere...

 

[Scaff]

The only reason i created that thread and am going to delete all the negativity has nothing to do with censorship.
Against what most of you think, there ARE in fact people who are interested in the game, pre-ordered it and want to discuss about it. EVERY single thread created about pCARS 3 has ended up in a discussion about the missing features. It should be clear by now to those (and they're always the same ones) repetitive complainers that those features are not going to be implemented at any stage of the game.
I tried all the "common sense" arguments but they kept coming back. I could have easily deleted the negativity out of all those threads and ban the posters for trolling... I did not...
The only thing us "likers" wanted was to discuss the game in peace, they have all the other threads to spew their negativity in.
If trying to stop the useless arguments is a bad move, so be it, but no alternative motives are hidden here.
I have nothing to hide nor do i try to hide anything, i'm recognized everywhere because my name is the same everywhere...

And some of us who have pre-ordered it want to be able to discuss the pros and the cons without fear of unwarranted censorship.

The optics of what you have done goes only one way, and it’s not a positive one, not helped by mocking people within it safe in the knowledge that it will be both protected and supported by the staff.

 

[Konan]

Protected and supported by the staff?
Where did you get that?
Discussing the pros and the cons is something totally different then repeating the same grieves you have over and over again, knowing very well it's of no use... That's not discussing, that's trolling.
I changed the thread title this morning to "constructive" instead of "positive".
That should say enough.

 

[Scaff]

Protected and supported by the staff?
Where did you get that?
Discussing the pros and the cons is something totally different then repeating the same grieves you have over and over again, knowing very well it's of no use... That's not discussing, that's trolling.
I changed the thread title this morning to "constructive" instead of "positive".
That should say enough.

So you apply the same standard to the pros, people get to mention the gem once and then it’s done, yeah I don’t think so.

 

[Konan]

So you apply the same standard to the pros, people get to mention the gem once and then it’s done, yeah I don’t think so.

I don't know if you realise how ridiculous that statement sounds, or if you even know the definition of a moderator?
In fact i DID a bad job... My job is eliminating trolls (amongst many other things)
So thanks for making me aware of that, i will remember that and won't be so lenient next time i encounter one... No threat, in fact your posts over at the forum are pretty good, i wish you wouldn't change attitude once you get into your own little safe house...

 

[Morgoth_666]

It's not as if we haven't had "all positive" and to be fair "all negative" threads created for games here before. As long as it's just one specific thread where "wtf this arcade rubbish physically pains me" isn't allowed it's not really a major problem. I'm aware of their reputation of heavy-handedness all along but don't go there all that often and have no interest in trying to confirm or deny it.

The one thing that is a bit of a bad look of course is that this thread was created by a mod on an official forum which means that it -- at least in some tenuous way since I'm assuming the mods are community volunteers as usual -- looks connected to the company.


Edit: And also the threads here were generally just self-policed IIRC, I don't think mods got too involved except when people got out of hand bickering. This forum has detractors for it's "heavy-handed" moderation too, but I've found since it is generally only based around decorum while it can be a little strict at times it's resulted in one of the more consistently overall well-behaved populations I've encountered online. 👍

 

[Scaff]

I don't know if you realise how ridiculous that statement sounds, or if you even know the definition of a moderator?
In fact i DID a bad job... My job is eliminating trolls (amongst many other things)
So thanks for making me aware of that, i will remember that and won't be so lenient next time i encounter one... No threat, in fact your posts over at the forum are pretty good, i wish you wouldn't change attitude once you get into your own little safe house...

I know very well what’s involved in moderation and my posts over here are just fine, if the were not within the AUP the staff would take action, something I know full well, being a retired moderator right here.

I can assure you that the staff here would never condone a staff member creating a thread with the sole intention of shutting down one side of a conversation.

Do you honestly know how many GT sounds like vacuum clean comments we have had here? Now have a guess how many of those were shut down, threatened or banned from commenting in certain threads, the answer is none.

 

[Konan]

I can assure you it's not.
It's just an attempt to be finally able to discuss the game, nothing more, nothing less...

 

[Blob_91]

Maybe a stupid question but what exactly does no private lobby's at the start mean? Is that private lobby as in not available for everyone or private as in set up by yourself?