Project Cars vs. Forza 6 - Poll added September 18th

[gtracedriver1]

It's a rough transition for many gamers used to GT or Forza when driving street cars in a sim. With a single tire model, cars tend to be more responsive than they really are. When you introduce more variables into the equation as PCars, Assetto Corsa and others do, all of a sudden your formerly pointy and precise street car has softer carcass tires with more flexible sidewalls and a lot less grip. Responsiveness slows down and it gives the impression of awful handling when it's actually, IMO anyway, more realistic handling.

This is not true at all. It depends on the car. I have not played GT6 for a while but once they update will try again. VGT are very responsive but not easy to control while going fast. But normal cars behave properly. Forza6 I guess is the same but going by the videos. it is like driving on a ice ( teamvvvi vids) especially open wheel it is worst than GT5 F1 car which was really bad. GT6 aryton senna decent though. Just like any game some cars handle better than others.

Have both on my X1. Forza 6 obviously has about 100 times the budget which shows in menus, car models, car count, track detail, sounds, etc. It's very polished and plays very well. Easily the best Forza yet.
As for PCars comparison, I just couldn't get into PCars, the career is stale and barebones, hardly any cars, the tracks look horrendous, bugs waiting at every corner. The experience just doesn't feel thought out or complete. It could use another 2-3 years in development, but they probably ran out of money.
Physics wise on a gamepad it's no contest, FM6 blows PC away like it's nothing. PC has nice things like dynamic ToD and weather but pays the price of lower resolution and horrible framerates.

Talk about exaggeration. Pcars looks good to me. In fact the lighting is much better and realistic. Cockpit view Pcars got that spot on with option to adjust FOV. Forza6 has good presentation but car models are not that impressive during gameplay. It may runs much smoother but certain things like mirror, rain, reflection update slowly. Forza6 is probably much better for most people but you make it sound like Pcars is the worst game or Forza6 is a generation ahead

 

[SimTourist]

Talk about exaggeration. Pcars looks good to me. In fact the lighting is much better and realistic. Cockpit view Pcars got that spot on with option to adjust FOV. Forza6 has good presentation but car models are not that impressive during gameplay. It may runs much smoother but certain things like mirror, rain, reflection update slowly. Forza6 is probably much better for most people but you make it sound like Pcars is the worst game or Forza6 is a generation ahead

Never said anything of that sort. Just said that I didn't dig the game's structure and the physics were weird on a pad. But then again I've already spent more time playing FM6 in 5 days than I have PCars since it's launch. As for realism I think the tracks that are found in both games are not only far better detailed in Forza 6 but are also more accurate because laserscanning. PCars basically pulled their tracks from Shift 2 with some road surface adjustments because those were totally out of shape in Shift.

 

[FLX1981]

As for realism I think the tracks that are found in both games are not only far better detailed in Forza 6 but are also more accurate because laserscanning. PCars basically pulled their tracks from Shift 2 with some road surface adjustments because those were totally out of shape in Shift.

Well, sometimes ignorance is bliss. Except for those who have to read it, of course.

If the Nordschleife in Forza 6 is the same as in FM5, the "laserscanned" curbs for example are less accurate than those in pcars. And the Shift 2 nonsense is so far away from the truth, its not even worth discussing.

 

[SimTourist]

Well, sometimes ignorance is bliss. Except for those who have to read it, of course.

If the Nordschleife in Forza 6 is the same as in FM5, the "laserscanned" curbs for example are less accurate than those in pcars. And the Shift 2 nonsense is so far away from the truth, its not even worth discussing.

Just my opinion, take it or leave it, but don't try to change it

 

[FLX1981]

Your statements are false claims, not opinions. I ve seen them model the tracks from scratch during development with my own eyes and now you tell me they just quickly recycled them from Shift 2. Thats not an opinion, opinion would be: "I dont like how these tracks look." - the end. If you would have stopped there, I would have no issue with what you re saying. But if you are spreading false things as fact, no amount of "Its just my opinion" will save your bacon from getting corrected.

 

[Imari]

PCars basically pulled their tracks from Shift 2 with some road surface adjustments because those were totally out of shape in Shift.

No, they didn't. They had to be rebuilt, because the Shift 2 assets belong to EA.

It was many of the same people making the pCARS assets, probably from many of the same reference materials, but they were remade. At various stages of the alpha most of the tracks were only drivable as tarmac ribbons with a bit of grass on the sides, so unless you think that they spoonfed the alpha people unfinished assets just to make it look like they were building stuff then you're way off base.

And if you do think that they spoonfed the alpha, then I've got a tin foil hat to sell you.

 

[Ialyrn]

Your statements are false claims, not opinions. I ve seen them model the tracks from scratch during development with my own eyes and now you tell me they just quickly recycled them from Shift 2. Thats not an opinion, opinion would be: "I dont like how these tracks look." - the end. If you would have stopped there, I would have no issue with what you re saying. But if you are spreading false things as fact, no amount of "Its just my opinion" will save your bacon from getting corrected.

Disclaimer: My opinion is not centered around the track side details. i.e the fences/shrubbery/grandstands/etc. Just about the portion of the track we drive on in these racing games!

If Pcars Nordschleife is so accurate, then why is it that between the track limits of the track is Assetto Corsa's own laser scanned version is damn near identical to the one in FM5/FM6? Both the FM5/6 and assetto versions of the track feel flat, from what some say who have driven on the track. That could be down to any number of factors, but it probably comes down to the view point of the camera's in both games. Pcars camera's are adjustable in every view, and the track feels anything but flat. That could be more a trick of the mind than anything, and will effect how we see such things as the kerbing.

I am not saying that Pcars version is bad though, because it isn't. It is very very close to the nords in Assetto and Forza. But it isnt as accurate as you are making out. The deciding factor in this debate though, will not happen until we see the iRacing laserscanned version of the nords. That will end the argument once and for all. If it is identical to the Pcars version, then that means T10 and Kunos have both taken artistic liberties between the white lines of the track. I will happily change my opinion if Iracing's version is the same as Pcars version.

As for the overall graphics in Pcars though, which is what sparked the current line of discussion. I have to say that Pcars takes the cake between FM6 and itself. The graphical details are far more abundant in Pcars, and the lighting is far superior. And this is coming from someone who doesn't like Pcars, but there have been noticeable improvements as of the last major patch.

Saying that though, I did buy the last DLC to release for Pcars on my PC. I just couldn't resist those 2 mustangs! Never thought I would see myself giving SMS more of my money, go figure, lol.

 

[OooAhh Cantona]

Your statements are false claims, not opinions. I ve seen them model the tracks from scratch during development with my own eyes and now you tell me they just quickly recycled them from Shift 2. Thats not an opinion, opinion would be: "I dont like how these tracks look." - the end. If you would have stopped there, I would have no issue with what you re saying. But if you are spreading false things as fact, no amount of "Its just my opinion" will save your bacon from getting corrected.

Welcome to the Internet. We have our own dictionary where opinions, assumptions, facts and truth are all the same thing. Our dictionary is fact.

 

[Johnnypenso]

This is not true at all. It depends on the car. I have not played GT6 for a while but once they update will try again. VGT are very responsive but not easy to control while going fast. But normal cars behave properly. Forza6 I guess is the same but going by the videos. it is like driving on a ice ( teamvvvi vids) especially open wheel it is worst than GT5 F1 car which was really bad. GT6 aryton senna decent though. Just like any game some cars handle better than others.

Of course it's car dependent, but GT uses a single tire model which makes all cars relatively easier to drive because the cars handle much more similarly than they do in PCars. A Merc VGT is a faster version of a Ferrari 458 is a faster version of an 246 Dino etc. In PCars or any sim really, there would be a dramatic difference in those cars because they'd have era specific tires on them.

 

[SimTourist]

Of course it's car dependent, but GT uses a single tire model which makes all cars relatively easier to drive because the cars handle much more similarly than they do in PCars. A Merc VGT is a faster version of a Ferrari 458 is a faster version of an 246 Dino etc. In PCars or any sim really, there would be a dramatic difference in those cars because they'd have era specific tires on them.

It's like you're describing Forza 6. My problem with the game is that all cars drive well and behave. Where in GT6 the Dino feels like a boat that has crazy body roll in Forza 6 it's stiff and drives like any modern car in the game. I think this aspect is poorly done.

 

[super_gt]

If the Nordschleife in Forza 6 is the same as in FM5, the "laserscanned" curbs for example are less accurate than those in pcars.

Yep
Here's a little comparison
Hatzenbach curb:

Real life

Project CARS

Forza 5

Forza 6

Assetto Corsa

Gran Turismo 6

 

[Cote Dazur]

@ lalyrn, I do not know how FMx and Pcars nordschleife has been created, but AC is laser scanned, I am curious on why you write that we would have to wait on IRacing laser scanned version is going to be like to know how Nordschleife is really like. we know, we have a very accurate AC laser scanned version.
Camera position used or different FOV will alter the perspective and possibly perception of some of the elevation changes, but the laser scanned track in AC remains 99.99% accurate.

 

[Johnnypenso]

@ lalyrn, I do not know how FMx and Pcars nordschleife has been created, but AC is laser scanned, I am curious on why you write that we would have to wait on IRacing laser scanned version is going to be like to know how Nordschleife is really like. we know, we have a very accurate AC laser scanned version.
Camera position used or different FOV will alter the perspective and possibly perception of some of the elevation changes, but the laser scanned track in AC remains 99.99% accurate.

The FM version is also laser scanned.

 

[Mike_grpA]

As far as track accuracy goes I can kinda see where SimTourist is coming from, as I've noticed some glaring faults in a couple of Pcars' tracks. I don't think all of FM6's tracks are laser scanned, correct me if I'm wrong, so I'm sure not all of the track in that game are perfect either, but it's version of Nordschleife is undoubtedly better, as is AC's, just because of the higher accuracy of the road's surface.

With that said, Pcars has a few laser scanned tracks of it's own and those are brilliant. It does however have the worst version of bathurst I've driven since Race Driver 3 on PS2. It's not bad per se, it's just not as good as FM's or GT's. I still regard GT6's version of Bathurst as the closest to the real thing. The surface is so accurate it must have been scanned. Prob the most accurate track in GT6 IMO. However since this is FM6 v Pcars, I'd give FM6 the award for best Bathurst.

The biggest problem is any comparison of road side graphics like the crowds or tents over a fence is it's pointless, as it's obvious SMS has focused more on the racing experience than taking pretty photos of the scenery. The tracks look fine, not amazing, but definitely good enough, and some tracks do look pretty damn good.

The big difference is the ability to experience all of those tracks in changing conditions. Starting a support race in career in the evening as the sun is beginning to set, and having to contend with the sun glaring at you in some corners, and big outstretched shadows over other corners, hampering your view of the apex. Doing even a short endurance race that starts during the day and runs into the night, and feeling the pressure as you see the headlights in your mirror hunting you relentlessly. Then the dread that comes over you when you notice the first spots of rain hitting the windscreen, and you know you'll have to start planning a change in strategy. Wondering how quickly the rain will fall. Will it get heavier? How many laps can you get in before there's too much water on the surface for your slicks. Is it worth gambling on one more lap? Or maybe if I come in now it'll be too early.

It's all well and good to have one race in perfect sunny conditions and the next in the rain. That's just two static scenarios. It's a whole other thing to have to deal with everything from clear, to fog, to light rain, to thunderstorms, and everything in between, all changing dynamically while you race.

If you ask me, it's a miracle SMS has been able to keep the graphics in Pcars as good as they have on console, as everything going on on screen with the dynamic weather and time, and the ability to have over 40 cars on track at once, would make you expect the graphics to be worse.

 

[Ialyrn]

@ lalyrn, I do not know how FMx and Pcars nordschleife has been created, but AC is laser scanned, I am curious on why you write that we would have to wait on IRacing laser scanned version is going to be like to know how Nordschleife is really like. we know, we have a very accurate AC laser scanned version.
Camera position used or different FOV will alter the perspective and possibly perception of some of the elevation changes, but the laser scanned track in AC remains 99.99% accurate.

When I say that the laserscanned I racing version will be the end to all the disagreements with regards to the Nords, it is because I racing never usually take any artistic license at all with regards to the tracks they create. What we all drive on in that game, as more often than not the most accurate virtual representation. So if the Iracing version is like T10's version for Forza 5/6, and the version on Assetto, then that means FM5/6 version is indeed accurate. If the Iracing version looks like that of Pcars, then it means that both FM5/6 and Assetto versions are wrong. As I said in my post, the FM5/6 version is damn near identical to the one in Assetto Corsa. And both where laser scanned.

 

[SimTourist]

It's all well and good to have one race in perfect sunny conditions and the next in the rain. That's just two static scenarios. It's a whole other thing to have to deal with everything from clear, to fog, to light rain, to thunderstorms, and everything in between, all changing dynamically while you race.

It would all be nice if rain physics in PCars weren't so awfully implemented, the AI was any good or even had less traction than it does in the dry. As it stands it's a graphical feature more than it is a gameplay feature.

 

[Mike_grpA]

It would all be nice if rain physics in PCars weren't so awfully implemented, the AI was any good or even had less traction than it does in the dry. As it stands it's a graphical feature more than it is a gameplay feature.

It's not awfully implemented, when was the last time you played the game? The physics shine in the wet, and the AI being too fast was fixed a long time ago. There's never been a problem with the player's physics in wet conditions. Statements like "it's a graphical feature more than a gameplay feature" make it sound like you haven't even played it. The graphics of the rain aren't anything special, the gameplay is better when you have dynamic weather.

Edit: I'll also add that the reason the AI has had to be tweaked is due to them running far simpler physics than the player. The player's physics uses most of what the PS4 and X1 have to give, there's not much left for everything else. You wouldn't even be able to have one AI driver running the same physics. They're too complex.

 

[VBR]

Hey guys, I just figured it out, & it all makes perfect sense now. Sim Tourist is Dan Greenawalt, his avatar kinda gave it away!

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Edit: I'll also add that the reason the AI has had to be tweaked is due to them running far simpler physics than the player. The player's physics uses most of what the PS4 and X1 have to give, there's not much left for everything else. You wouldn't even be able to have one AI driver running the same physics. They're too complex.

That sounds like a pretty terrible, major design flaw for a game, if you ask me. Surely that wasn't the case... right?

 

[ImaRobot]

Doesn't that zooming phenomenon come from the FOV Speed Sensitivity adjustment? Not sure what the particular adjustments are, but it gives you a larger FOV and hence a greater sense of speed the faster you go, then a smaller FOV and hence the zooming/slowing effect, when you slow down. I tried it and hated it but I've seen it in some videos so some people must like it. I turned it off, just didn't work for me.

I don't think its that, as the whole game feels like its slowing down. If that is what's causing it, then that is the most ridiculous setting I have ever encountered in my life. If that setting is effecting the game visually, and physically, then it should be removed. Still, I believe that it is just the X1 version doing it's usual thing.

This is not true at all. It depends on the car. I have not played GT6 for a while but once they update will try again. VGT are very responsive but not easy to control while going fast. But normal cars behave properly. Forza6 I guess is the same but going by the videos. it is like driving on a ice ( teamvvvi vids) especially open wheel it is worst than GT5 F1 car which was really bad. GT6 aryton senna decent though. Just like any game some cars handle better than others.

It is not the same, and if anything, FM5 was more like driving on ice and that wasn't even the case either if you tune a car after modifying it(like anyone should.) FM6 seems to have upped the grip and is sitting in a nice zone between the two and feels much more realistic now. The Forza assumption is far off base.

Talk about exaggeration. Pcars looks good to me. In fact the lighting is much better and realistic. Cockpit view Pcars got that spot on with option to adjust FOV. Forza6 has good presentation but car models are not that impressive during gameplay. It may runs much smoother but certain things like mirror, rain, reflection update slowly. Forza6 is probably much better for most people but you make it sound like Pcars is the worst game or Forza6 is a generation ahead

Every single game ever uses lower poly models in game, that is not a mystery. To say they look bad though is just ridiculous, really. Bad compared to what? Mirrors, and reflections update at 30fps, but why is that a problem? It would be wasted resources that can be used in other places if it was higher than that.

Well, sometimes ignorance is bliss. Except for those who have to read it, of course.

If the Nordschleife in Forza 6 is the same as in FM5, the "laserscanned" curbs for example are less accurate than those in pcars. And the Shift 2 nonsense is so far away from the truth, its not even worth discussing.

Curbs are not laserscanned, track surfaces are. Trackside objects are added in by the developer to their taste. Still, its like you're grasping for straws.. It's just a small thing to try to pull out to show an inaccuracy on a track.

The biggest problem is any comparison of road side graphics like the crowds or tents over a fence is it's pointless, as it's obvious SMS has focused more on the racing experience than taking pretty photos of the scenery. The tracks look fine, not amazing, but definitely good enough, and some tracks do look pretty damn good.

I completely agree with this. Two completely different game designs, based around one niche idea. Some area's have to take hits to be able to achieve their separate goals, and that's what people fail to realize. If they both tried to do what the other was doing, while still holding their original features and development, it would not hold well at all on this gen.

It's all well and good to have one race in perfect sunny conditions and the next in the rain. That's just two static scenarios. It's a whole other thing to have to deal with everything from clear, to fog, to light rain, to thunderstorms, and everything in between, all changing dynamically while you race.

I would love that, I really would, to be honest. I, however, cherish locked 60fps and with those features implemented they very well hindered the performance on the Xbox One. I'd be interested in one day giving the PS4 version a try, but as it sits, the Xbox One version has let me down in that department.

 

[FuriousDemon]

Just give the latest patch a go, see what you think. It only takes you 5-10 mins, you might have a new game on your hands

The AI cars in the rain has been fixed in 2.0 and improved further in 3.0.

As far as physics, I'm sure FM6 is also using simplified physics to an extent for AI.

Anyway, I'm enjoying FM6 for what it is now - a great hotlapping game that I can play with a controller without too much tweaking around. That's actually what I have time for lately - 30 minute stints, which prevent me from running a 10-20 lap race in pCARS. Still, for racing, pCARS wins hands down.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't think its that, as the whole game feels like its slowing down. If that is what's causing it, then that is the most ridiculous setting I have ever encountered in my life. If that setting is effecting the game visually, and physically, then it should be removed. Still, I believe that it is just the X1 version doing it's usual thing.

You don't need to remove the setting, just go into the camera settings and disable speed sensitive FOV. I don't know if the default is on or off, but it's a simple solution worth checking. You might be experiencing something else, but I know when I used that setting it felt exactly as you and @SlipZtrEm describe, the whole game seems to slow down as you enter a corner and the FOV gets smaller. As I said, some people must like it because I've seen it on more than one Youtube video. I'm glad the option is there, I just don't like it myself. It has no effect physically on the game, but the change in perception might trick your mind into thinking there is one.

 

[ImaRobot]

You don't need to remove the setting, just go into the camera settings and disable speed sensitive FOV. I don't know if the default is on or off, but it's a simple solution worth checking. You might be experiencing something else, but I know when I used that setting it felt exactly as you and @SlipZtrEm describe, the whole game seems to slow down as you enter a corner and the FOV gets smaller. As I said, some people must like it because I've seen it on more than one Youtube video. I'm glad the option is there, I just don't like it myself. It has no effect physically on the game, but the change in perception might trick your mind into thinking there is one.

The odd thing is that the FOV never changed when this occured. It actually does effect the game, because not only is the game slowing down, but the game reacting to my inputs is also slower.

I'll try to make some time later today, and check out my settings, though.

Looking at a video of how the setting works, I am almost positive I do not even have that on as I don't even remember editing any of those settings, or even seeing the fine tuning of it with the option selected. Even more so, the camera is not zooming in or out, it is steady, the game itself is the thing slowing down.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Check the official Pcars Xbone forum, the slow down is one of the Xbone issues, not related to the fov whatsoever.

 

[FLX1981]

Curbs are not laserscanned, track surfaces are. Trackside objects are added in by the developer to their taste. Still, its like you're grasping for straws.. It's just a small thing to try to pull out to show an inaccuracy on a track.

I dont have an adequate "Not sure if serious?!" gif at hand but you dont seem to understand how laserscanning works... Or racing, for that matter. Curbs are an important part of a track and of course they are all scanned as well while scanning a track. This is how a scanned track looks:

In general to the people quoting me: I havent said that pcars version of Nords is the best or the most accurate or that Forzas version is garbage or not laserscanned or anything. I just tried to correct simtourists nonsense posts.

 

[Mike_grpA]

That sounds like a pretty terrible, major design flaw for a game, if you ask me. Surely that wasn't the case... right?

As far as I am aware all sims use simplified physics for AI. If a racing game uses the same physics for AI as it does for the player, the player's physics would have to be pretty basic. Even Codies F1 games run simplified physics for AI to allow CPU room for other things.

The flaw was with the AI's speed in certain conditions, due to their simplified model. No other game devs will go into as much detail as SMS have with exactly what is missing from the AI model, but Doug from SMS has explained that the AI's tyre model doesn't include temp, so until they changed other things in their behaviour, the AI didn't have a problem with tyres going cold when it started raining. The same reason is why they don't have to warm up their tyres when leaving the pits during practice sessions.

As has already been said though, the AI has been tweaked to fix these issues in both 2.0 and further in 3.0, and they will continue to tweak the AI in the areas where it needs attention, like currently they are too agressive at certain tracks or certain corners, and SMS know about it, so they'll continue to tweak them to make them better from their feedback.

 

[diesel97]

You can have three different company's laserscan the same track and come out with three different versions . It all matters what the devs do with all that info its not like they push a button the track draws . They have to input all that info in and that were thing change. Laserscan tracks are not all the same.

 

[killerjimbag]

You can have three different company's laserscan the same track and come out with three different versions . It all matters what the devs do with all that info its not like they push a button the track draws . They have to input all that info in and that were thing change. Laserscan tracks are not all the same.

Uhm,a laser scanned track is down to millimetres. I'm pretty sure they,devs,are not going to get Joe blows laser scanning Co. Kerbs are kerbs, are kerbs. They are either flat or not flat. Remember, its a "video game"

 

[diesel97]

Uhm,a laser scanned track is down to millimetres. I'm pretty sure they,devs,are not going to get Joe blows laser scanning Co. Kerbs are kerbs, are kerbs. They are either flat or not flat. Remember, its a "video game"

I wasn't talking about the equipment that scans the track.I'm talking about what they do with that info after .They have to put it into lines of code and every dev can interpret that differently

 

[jimipitbull]

It's a rough transition for many gamers used to GT or Forza when driving street cars in a sim. With a single tire model, cars tend to be more responsive than they really are. When you introduce more variables into the equation as PCars, Assetto Corsa and others do, all of a sudden your formerly pointy and precise street car has softer carcass tires with more flexible sidewalls and a lot less grip. Responsiveness slows down and it gives the impression of awful handling when it's actually, IMO anyway, more realistic handling.

The majority of gamers have probably never even driven a manual, with no power steering, no brake booster, leaf springs, drum brakes and needing a wheel alignment. Which I assume the default settings in pcars is trying to replicate.