Shootings and explosions in Paris.
- Thread starter Dennisch
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mister dog
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- misterdog
- misterdog7
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- Johnnypenso
If the next 7 do a better job and kill 1000 people, would it still be worthwhile to help the others? If it's not 7 but 700 and they kill 10,000 is it still worth it? Is there no other solution that doesn't involve mass, permanent migration?
mister dog
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Indeed, we always want to be the ethical and political correct ones. They don't take that into account, not even human rights so why would we?
Ah yes i hear you say; "because we are better than them", and meanwhile our people continue getting shot up in the street, but at least we have the moral high ground no?...
- 30,023
- Thailand
Most likely. It's very much evident in the form of Islamic hate preachers in the UK who will brainwash young Muslims to go and join and fight for ISIS and Islam but haven't got the balls to do it themselves.
There are things that can be done but many of them would infringe on human rights and civil liberties. If, to curb terrorism, those rights and liberties are breached then where does it stop? If, in protecting the masses, a few must be deprived of their rights and liberties then a case may be argued that it is necessary but who is just enough to make that decision?
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- Furinkazen_54
Who said that?
Who said that?
Exactly what ISIS are doing and they are heroes to themselves.
Problem is they still exist.
- 2,726
- England
- ECGadget
- Eh???
I did not say that, nor do I think this can be allowed to continue. The post was a response to a subdiscussion that was focussed on capturing terrorists and what to do with them. You're right that these things are increasing, and that is not on but then perhaps it is a time for the governments to actively declare war on the so called Islamic State and get the job done once and for all. That being said though, that is more difficult when you have them in someone elses country.
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- GTP_Famine
Sure thing. Where do we do that? Only dropping bombs into someone else's country is a bit rude and risks innocent lives.
Nevertheless, we must follow our own laws. If the UK has not declared war on Da'esh, the killing of "Jihadi John" is a state execution without trial on the basis that he is an enemy of the state. If that's how the UK operates, I'm an enemy of the state too.
When we abandon our values out of fear, they win.
Their goal is to sow fear. They want to provoke anti-Islamic feeling to increase the persecution of Muslims in our countries in order to justify their existence and hatred, and to recruit more people for their cause.
A million Muslims flee them to come to us and we respond by saying that some of them must be terrorists... and that's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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- Spurgy777
I'm not sure on this years figures, but going by last years, the majority of the refugees aren't from Syria, only about 30% (which was 79,000).
@Famine wasn't it a US airstrike that killed Jihadi John, or am I wrong on that?
- 10,270
- Bonn
- GTAce
As always you make good points, but you're also forgetting reality here.
The Daesh declared war on all infidels and the west, they're actively fighting a war, neither the UK nor anyone else has to officially declare anything else beyond, only one side has to. Also, I don't see how we abandon "our" values if we fight them all out. We abandoned our values when we created that mess, now we have to clean up.
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- Thailand
I didn't know about this. At least now he can have his raisins.
Joey D
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When things like this happen I not only feel for the victims and their families, but the countless Muslims that will be ran through the wringer because of this. I know several people who practice Islam, and they're no different than anyone else I know except their from the Middle East originally and not Michigan. They're good, kind, normal people that will probably now have to endure another onslaught of idiots thinking they're out to kill everyone. Extremist will ruin anything and everything, especially in a world where the media turns incidents like this into infotainment and tried to sway popular opinion in the name of ratings.
I'll be curious to see what the response is from the world after all the hashtags, lights, and whatnot subside. I really hope this isn't going to step-up and make more conflict in the Middle East than there already is.
I'll be curious to see what the response is from the world after all the hashtags, lights, and whatnot subside. I really hope this isn't going to step-up and make more conflict in the Middle East than there already is.
- 30,023
- Thailand
I suppose a body would be needed and a positive ID made to confirm. Still, if it was him, it seemed inevitable that death would find him so I can't say I'm surprised.
@Joey D - I don't think these events are directly going to effect anything in the Middle East. It's clear that this Islamic 'war' is being waged against Western populations (outside of the ME, of course) and the focus should be to deal with it in these regions, not impose more suffering on the Middle East. That said, if the root cause is dealt with, and that happens to be in the ME, then I suppose that is where action should be taken, but not at the expense of the innocent masses.
- 2,726
- England
- ECGadget
- Eh???
On that topic, I saw these two articles, the first that relates to what you just said in many ways.
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2015/11/14/paris/
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2004/10/12/ignorance-is-no-excuse/
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- GTP_Famine
Good question, and one I don't know.
Of course if it was it changes the complexion of the execution somewhat - I believe that the US has declared war "on terror" (whatever that means) and the person in question is not a US citizen and not protected by the Constitution. But then Al-Sawlaki and his son both were and that didn't make much difference at the time.
Actually we do. It's in the Geneva Convention.
Of course the problem, as I alluded to earlier, is that Da'esh is not a state or nation and the Geneva Conventions deal with nations. It's an ideology - and you don't fight ideologies with autonomous missile strikes.
Killing our own citizens without trial on the basis that they are a threat to the state is a complete abandonment of all principles of law. We are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by our peers. We have no capital crimes, so execution is not a valid punishment.
Incidentally, we sit here and lambast Da'esh for decapitating, crushing with tanks or throwing off towers 'their' citizens that they say are a threat to their 'state', while using remote control rockets to kill our citizens that we say are a threat to ours.
It's wrong to say that we created 'that mess', but certain individuals like Tony Blair - who fabricated intelligence to justify an actual war in Iraq - certainly haven't helped. He absolutely needs to be brought before a war crimes court.
Or just killed with a drone strike. After all, after what he did, does he really deserve a trial...
- 30,023
- Thailand
I wouldn't say the the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan was completely responsible for the rise in terror attacks.
If that was the case then (in a similar situation) the Tibetans would be attacking and killing the Chinese left, right and centre for completely taking over their state. The big difference here are the religious cultures. There's no way Buddhist teachings can be twisted to inspire or justify acts of violence, but Islamic teachings...well that's a different story. The people behind these attacks are using the Qur'an as a means to justify their actions.
If that was the case then (in a similar situation) the Tibetans would be attacking and killing the Chinese left, right and centre for completely taking over their state. The big difference here are the religious cultures. There's no way Buddhist teachings can be twisted to inspire or justify acts of violence, but Islamic teachings...well that's a different story. The people behind these attacks are using the Qur'an as a means to justify their actions.
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