Shootings and explosions in Paris.

  • Thread starter Dennisch
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zzz_pt
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killerjimbag
Here is a very interesting article people should read.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
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This here is just sad. These are the kind of people who makes things worse through his lack of knowledge. Taking the first video link, he has not got a clue.
"Muhammad got the Qur'an from the archangel Gabriel in a cave" Only partly true. The first verses were revealed in that cave. The rest were revealed over the period of 23 years after that. He then goes on to act as though the Qur'an as an independant book with no context behind it. Makes sense as if it was all revealed in a cave then there is no context. Except that is incorrect information right there. Hole number 1. And with that hole, his entire reasoning falls apart. Considering that even a young Muslim child knows that the Qur'an was revealed over 23 years and only the first few verses were revealed in that cave, it shows me and should hopefully be clear to everyone here that this man has no clue whatsoever about Islam and therefore cannot speak about it.

Now onto the article:

"We can gather that their state rejects peace as a matter of principle; that it hungers for genocide; that its religious views make it constitutionally incapable of certain types of change, even if that change might ensure its survival; and that it considers itself a harbinger of—and headline player in—the imminent end of the world."
Not going to disagree with the fact that they reject peace and hunger for genocide. It is obviously true and scary. Religious views make it incapable of certain types of change? Maybe in the evil minds of ISIS yes, but NOT in Islam itself.

"The most-articulate spokesmen for that position are the Islamic State’s officials and supporters themselves. They refer derisively to “moderns.” In conversation, they insist that they will not—cannot—waver from governing precepts that were embedded in Islam by the Prophet Muhammad and his earliest followers. They often speak in codes and allusions that sound odd or old-fashioned to non-Muslims, but refer to specific traditions and texts of early Islam."
What? That the Prophet Muhammad and his Earliest follows sought out to suicide bomb everyone, destroy everything in their path, rape women and get AIDS, behead people etc etc? Strange... this is the same Muhammad that signed a treaty IN Madinah that swore that he would protect the lives, property, wealth and religious freedoms, among others with the Jews, Christians, and Zorastrians? This is the same Muhammad who shed a tear when the funeral of a Jewish man passed? The same Muhammad who gave visiting Christian preists access to his mosque so they could pray? The same Muhammad who helped an old lady on her journey although she cursed him the whole way without knowing that it was Muhammad who she was talking to Muhammad about? The same Muhammad who let his cousin jump on his back whilst he was in prayer? The same Muhammad who said that if war did occur then there were very specific rules that should never be broken, of which some were never to harm crops, destroy a religious building, fight beyond a permitted battlefield and without an official warning of at least four lunar months. The Muhammad who was known for his qualities that any bickering between the tribes was sorted by him on the tribes request? That Muhammad? That's the one they are following with the traditions of Islam? Really? The hell they are.

"The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam."
I call BS of the highest level. IS are as far from Islam as you can get. They are devils in human form, they are the lowest of the low and they are a disgrace to humanity. Every one of you here could be considered more Muslim than they are in many ways.

Both the video and the article are by people who know little of Islam (that being said the second did know a little more, but even then it was half truths or twisted lies either simply out of ignorance or perhaps, and I would say highly unlikely, purposefully). They know just as little about Islam as ISIS do, and for the second who seems to have got his knowledge FROM ISIS, well that is just the worst place to get knowledge from.

I'm sorry but on one side you have the ISIS devils destroying Islam and humanity, and on the other side you have people like these who are just spewing out whatever junk that comes out of their mouths. In the middle you have us, who try to make heads or tails of all of this and if we don't have the knowledge, what are we to believe. I know if I did not, what I would believe. And what I would believe that Islam is is a very very horrible thing to believe.
 
Turkey foiled "major terror plot" on the same day as the Paris massacre.

Meanwhile, senior Iraqi intelligence officials are said to have warned coalition countries of imminent assaults by Isis just one day before last week’s deadly attacks, according to the Associate press.
 
Dennisch
It isn't fake, since social media was full of it. But apparently people want to create a conflict over the backs of others.
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Should be easy to find a good source then if it was all over social media. All I see are right wing tabloids running with the same unconfirmed handful of tweets.
 
Noob616
Should be easy to find a good source then if it was all over social media. All I see are right wing tabloids running with the same unconfirmed handful of tweets.
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A good source? As in unbiased you mean? Good luck finding that.
The tweets were there, it's just that they most likely were posted by people who had nothing to do with the Mizzou situation. But that's the Internet. You know, that place that can convince people that a software update can make your phone waterproof. :dopey:
 
Four French officials acknowledged that police had Abdeslam in their grasp, when they stopped a car carrying him and two other men near the Belgian border early Saturday. By then, hours had passed since authorities identified Abdeslam as the renter of a Volkswagen Polo that carried hostage takers to the Paris theater where so many were killed.

Three French police officials and a top French security official confirmed that officers let Abdeslam go after checking his ID. They spoke on condition of anonymity, lacking authorization to publicly disclose such details.
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http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-11-15-16-18-50

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Dennisch
You wanted proof for terrorists disguised as refugees, you got it.
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Do you know what I am also getting? "Proof" that mass migration is a bad thing because terrorists can slip through. This is faulty logic because the terrorists would have found a way in with or without mass migration. How do you know that terrorist wasn't radicalised by his experiences as a refugee, of being turned away? It hasn't even been twenty-four hours since the attacks, so how is anyone in any position to know anything so conclusively when the investigation has barely started? More importantly, what do you propose is done with the millions of refugees who aren't terrorists? The logic here is that "terrorists got in disguised as refugees, so no more refugees should be allowed in", but doesn't do anything about the millions left stranded because Europe shuts its borders. The same millions who have been left at the mercy of the terrorists.

But hey, so long as Europe is safe, I guess everything is great. After all, it's not really terrorism if it doesn't affect us.
 
prisonermonkeys
But hey, so long as Europe is safe, I guess everything is great. After all, it's not really terrorism if it doesn't affect us
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But hey, let's make Europe just as unsafe as the Middle East.
Easy to say when you're safe typing from 25000km away.

Stop wearing these :

oogkleppen.jpg


And come back to reality.

Edit.

The refugees should have stayed in the region. As proposed. In safezones. But thanks to bureaucracy and a big mouthed Merkel they all came to Europe. And even Germany can't handle the stream anymore. Sweden is ready to say it's full, and all across Europe people are getting fed up with the policies caried out by our politicians. Because the politicians are like you PM, they think they can change and save the world. Well guess what. The world has an incurable disease.
 
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ECGadget
This here is just sad. These are the kind of people who makes things worse through his lack of knowledge. Taking the first video link, he has not got a clue.
"Muhammad got the Qur'an from the archangel Gabriel in a cave" Only partly true. The first verses were revealed in that cave. The rest were revealed over the period of 23 years after that. He then goes on to act as though the Qur'an as an independant book with no context behind it. Makes sense as if it was all revealed in a cave then there is no context. Except that is incorrect information right there. Hole number 1. And with that hole, his entire reasoning falls apart. Considering that even a young Muslim child knows that the Qur'an was revealed over 23 years and only the first few verses were revealed in that cave, it shows me and should hopefully be clear to everyone here that this man has no clue whatsoever about Islam and therefore cannot speak about it.
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Erm, no, it's not a hole and doesn't make his entire reasoning fall apart because it's pretty much irrelevant to the point he's making. And it's a massive leap to go from pointing out a small oversimplification to essentially "everything this guy is saying is wrong and he knows nothing about Islam". Just because you might not like what he's saying, to prove him wrong you actually have to address his point, which you didn't do in the slightest.
 
Dennisch
The refugees should have stayed in the region. As proposed. In safezones. But thanks to bureaucracy and a big mouthed Merkel they all came to Europe. And even Germany can't handle the stream anymore. Sweden is ready to say it's full, and all across Europe people are getting fed up with the policies caried out by our politicians. Because the politicians are like you PM, they think they can change and save the world. Well guess what. The world has an incurable disease.
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And this is how you know that ISIS won this round.

It's not about the refugees, Europe worked as a huge legal framework to create a equal status for all it's citizens, the problem is the "freedom of religion", we (as the west, or the non Muslim) have recognized that at some degree Religion is a political system also wanting to gain powers for itself. State should differ from Religion, the problem with the muslim world is that their Legal framework for their nations is based on their verbatim "Bible" (Quran), but this in itself is highly evaluated by non-extremist states (remember the "Ba'ath" Party, they did such a thing, Hence why Gaddafi's Libya, Assad's Syria and Mubarak's Egypt were somewhat more stable on this regard).

The US and the west, during the cold war used Islam as support for their proxy wars, but just as the Ba'ath parties we failed to realize that they, themselves were fighting against the consequences of an extremism will cause.

Everyone forgot who put them there, so we are blaming this into the refugees because of their race, who were trying to get out of the mess (FSA) that the west started in the first place. Part of the problem is knowing the Quran, for fear of indoctrination and possible retribution, we you read into it, you find that it's a historical records of a self sufficient person who was in the middle of an imperial war (akin to Jesus), he had two followers who "claim" that they translate everything into the teachings, problem with this is that war atrocities, pillage and were also described while that text was produced.

Part of Quran's writings are indeed written in constant war, just as a legal framework it works to adapt to a changing and more evolved society, but there is a point where society requires religion to cease its existence, as we now consider that a religion is not universal, and thus cannot have a weight on a legal system because it no longer consider human values. The contradiction is that the legal system in itself is the religion, as such we simply say that is an Islamic Problem.

It's not a racial problem, but a problem with doctrination and ideologies, the west must not go after the Muslim world, it should simply go against those who want to keep power by using the Quran, the real people we are looking for is simply the equivalent of a sect, the real enemy is Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, their leaders (which happen to be the wealthiest mother****ers on the planet) are the ones working as mediators to supply ISIS, because they will not compromise their influence in the region, and they will not compromise their influence on their local and regionals politics, because they are based on the same principles that ISIS use to have influence.

1 Billion muslims are not the enemy, the real enemy a few thousands sectarian leaders that want to have perpetual regional powers, we go after them in their Qatari and Saudi offices, we capture them rather than killing them, we capture them alongside the ISIS leaders that they are employing.
 
Akira AC
And this is how you know that ISIS won this round.

It's not about the refugees, Europe worked as a huge legal framework to create a equal status for all it's citizens, the problem is the "freedom of religion", we (as the west, or the non Muslim) have recognized that at some degree Religion is a political system also wanting to gain powers for itself. State should differ from Religion, the problem with the muslim world is that their Legal framework for their nations is based on their verbatim "Bible" (Quran), but this in itself is highly evaluated by non-extremist states (remember the "Ba'ath" Party, they did such a thing, Hence why Gaddafi's Libya, Assad's Syria and Mubarak's Egypt were somewhat more stable on this regard).

The US and the west, during the cold war used Islam as support for their proxy wars, but just as the Ba'ath parties we failed to realize that they, themselves were fighting against the consequences of an extremism will cause.

Everyone forgot who put them there, so we are blaming this into the refugees because of their race, who were trying to get out of the mess (FSA) that the west started in the first place. Part of the problem is knowing the Quran, for fear of indoctrination and possible retribution, we you read into it, you find that it's a historical records of a self sufficient person who was in the middle of an imperial war (akin to Jesus), he had two followers who "claim" that they translate everything into the teachings, problem with this is that war atrocities, pillage and were also described while that text was produced.

Part of Quran's writings are indeed written in constant war, just as a legal framework it works to adapt to a changing and more evolved society, but there is a point where society requires religion to cease its existence, as we now consider that a religion is not universal, and thus cannot have a weight on a legal system because it no longer consider human values. The contradiction is that the legal system in itself is the religion, as such we simply say that is an Islamic Problem.

It's not a racial problem, but a problem with doctrination and ideologies, the west must not go after the Muslim world, it should simply go against those who want to keep power by using the Quran, the real people we are looking for is simply the equivalent of a sect, the real enemy is Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, their leaders (which happen to be the wealthiest mother****ers on the planet) are the ones working as mediators to supply ISIS, because they will not compromise their influence in the region, and they will not compromise their influence on their local and regionals politics, because they are based on the same principles that ISIS use to have influence.

1 Billion muslims are not the enemy, the real enemy a few thousands sectarian leaders that want to have perpetual regional powers, we go after them in their Qatari and Saudi offices, we capture them rather than killing them, we capture them alongside the ISIS leaders that they are employing.
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Finally someone who makes complete common sense.
 
Dennisch
But hey, let's make Europe just as unsafe as the Middle East.

Edit.

The refugees should have stayed in the region. As proposed. In safezones. But thanks to bureaucracy and a big mouthed Merkel they all came to Europe. And even Germany can't handle the stream anymore. Sweden is ready to say it's full, and all across Europe people are getting fed up with the policies caried out by our politicians. Because the politicians are like you PM, they think they can change and save the world. Well guess what. The world has an incurable disease.
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Those safe zones you're talking about do not have the capacity nor the resources to support that kind of volume. Which is why we need to do our part, and not just turn a blind eye to the deaths of what could be millions.

We have a responsibility as decent human beings to offer help to those who genuinely need it, and to even contemplate shutting down the borders just because a few terrorists might make it through with them, is absurd in my opinion. Even more so when we know for a fact that the terrorists can make it here in other ways, with several being born and raised in the countries they commit the atrocities in.
 
Dennisch
Easy to say when you're safe typing from 25000km away.
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You think I am wearing blinders, but I think distance gives perspective. Say Europe does close its borders to refugees - what's going to happen? It will send a very clear message that Muslim lives aren't worth saving, or that saving them isn't worth the cost to Europe's security. It will send the message that Muslims aren't to be trusted, and that you're innocent until proven Muslim. It might not be your intention, but it is the net affect, and all it will do is create more radicals. It was Jihadi John's justification for joining ISIS - the assumption that he was going to Africa to join al Shabaab. Whether or not that was his intention and whether or not the security services is beside the point: in this case, perception is nine tenths of the law, and enough to push him over the edge. Now send that message to every single refugee trying to get into Europe, and see what happens.

Fortunately for you, you don't have to do that. Just look to my country instead. We have already done everything that Europe is thinking of, and then things that they couldn't even begin to imagine. Our national security laws are some of the tightest and the most restrictive in the world. Our borders are welded shut. Our customs and immigration services are all but the fourth branch of the armed forces (and they were granted the power to stop and search anyone on suspicion of "visa fraud" without probable cause until the public heard about it). Our citizenship laws are weaponised with no judicial oversight. Our police forces have the power to detain anyone without charge for days, and in theory could hold someone indefinitely. Our courts have the power to restrict that person's movements in the community without the state providing the burden of proof any other crime would require. Our phone and internet providers are required to retain all metadata from all devices for a minimum of two years. Our official policy on radicalisation is "Muslim community leaders need to do more to prevent it". And the end result is predictable - the relationship between the Muslim community and the wider community is at an all-time low.
 
Jawehawk
We have a responsibility as decent human beings to offer help to those who genuinely need it, and to even contemplate shutting down the borders just because a few terrorists might make it through with them, is absurd in my opinion. Even more so when we know for a fact that the terrorists can make it here in other ways, with several being born and raised in the countries they commit the atrocities in.
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One thing almost everyone seems to be forgetting are the conditions in which these refugees will live their lives. Its foolish to think that even a quarter of them will be able to find themselves decent, stable jobs, fully integrate into western society, and feel at home in Europe.

Instead, most of them will spend their lives living in the ghettos and housing projects @prisonermonkeys was talking about a few pages back. Living in the exact kind of environment where they will feel marginalised and will be that much easier to radicalise.

There may be no direct, causal link between refugees and terrorism, but whoever thinks letting so many of them in over such a short period of time won't make a difference, especially in the long run, is living in another reality.
 
Johnnypenso
Yes. If you have evidence that refutes the information contained or updates it to something newer, feel free to post it. It's a developing story.
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Picking such a blatantly biased (CONFIRMED!!!), cluttered clickbait site makes it look like grabbing straws though, when that's not even necessary as the information came from Greek officials and was widely reported.

Regardless, the point that terrorists now supposedly sneak into Europe so much easier is stupid.
 
Johnnypenso
Yes. If you have evidence that refutes the information contained or updates it to something newer, feel free to post it. It's a developing story.
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Bad news: Breitbart is the even more biased cousin than Daily Mail. Both are sometimes loose to what actually happened but the latter atleast just for sake of sensationalism. Breitbart is basically biased toward certain political views to the point it sometimes twist and divert whats actually happened IRL to suits their views.

Good news: I just saw your Breitbart post. Its actually pretty much what almost all publications and others said already and its tone isnt really biased aka surprisingly raw. So said article got a free pass.

Just a reminder for you though. Scan the entire news publications and Social Media confirmations to justify and verify that as the real evidence. Not all publications pass off as fair, subjective, unbiased, and unpolitical.
 

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