Should PD have let the modding slide? ... OP Updated.

[Tornado]

It is marketed as the real driving simulator, so real life statistics are relevant.

Real life statistics (which you still need to prove or they are meaningless for this discussion) aren't relevant to your statement for preventing detailed customization just because it is uncommon. Might as well strip all of the customization already in the game and turn the next GT game into a GTPSP style affair if we're following your logic.


In fact, you know what else is uncommon? People racing their production street cars. So best take out the racing too. All you get to do with road cars now is Photo Travel.

Regardless of that, legitimate car racing leagues have terms and conditions which the teams and drivers must abide by. Modding game saves goes against the terms and conditions specified by PD/Sony, which all of us agree to every time there is a firmware or software update.

This is also a different (and actually valid) argument from the above.

It could also be detrimental to future games - manufacturers may not grant licenses if their virtual product is being tampered with by people that are trying to compensate for something.

Yes, everyone knows that hybriding in GT3 is the real reason that Posrche isn't in GT still.


And no one really is fussed by whatever reasons you want to label the people making hybrids under, btw.

When was the last time you took a 2.4 litre V8 out of a Ferrari F1 car and put it into your Honda Civic?

Did you mount it horizontally?

This is incredibly disingenuous of you to put forward as an argument. Because people don't do the one extreme example and take Formula 1 engines and put them into Honda Civics in real life, it means it is barely done in real life at all and thus shouldn't be included? There are cars in the game right now (nevermind cars from previous games in the series) whose major point of interest is that they have an engine in them from something else. Should those be taken out, then?

So, you are saying that isn't common practice?

I have had 9 cars, and have never swapped an engine. Out of all of my friends, family and work colleagues, over a 20 year period, I know of one engine swap - a 2 litre Nissan motor into a Datsun 1600

My parents have, over a 20 year period, had 4 cars (out of 7) with engine swaps. Whoo!

How common Is engine swapping in real life. Hmm out if every person I have ever known in 30 years, 1. 1 person who put an old m5 engine into an older BMW.

Congratulations?

I can only surmise that ecocet is a troll based upon his continued ignorance and his forza SIG.

Love to know what the ignorance is beyond just "something I don't agree with" as it has typically been misused to mean throughout this thread.

 

[roflcoptor]

How common Is engine swapping in real life. Hmm out if every person I have ever known in 30 years, 1. 1 person who put an old m5 engine into an older BMW.

I've swapped the engine in my daily drive for something bigger. Engine swaps are fairly common in the UK car-modding scene.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

It is marketed as the real driving simulator, so real life statistics are relevant.

Regardless of that, legitimate car racing leagues have terms and conditions which the teams and drivers must abide by. Modding game saves goes against the terms and conditions specified by PD/Sony, which all of us agree to every time there is a firmware or software update.

It could also be detrimental to future games - manufacturers may not grant licenses if their virtual product is being tampered with by people that are trying to compensate for something.

No, they are not. If you want to apply real life statistics, then we shouldn't be able to own as many concept cars, race cars, and cars that are of limited production as we want. But we can do that in the game anyway. Your logic is flawed. The only thing your statement applies to is the actual driving.

 

[jimipitbull]

Real life statistics (which you still need to prove or they are meaningless for this discussion) aren't relevant to your statement for preventing detailed customization just because it is uncommon. Might as well strip all of the customization already in the game and turn the next GT game into a GTPSP style affair if we're following your logic.

It was an educated guess. If you are not happy with that figure you are welcome to disprove it. Out of the 60 million cars produced in 2012, how many would you think have been modified? There's over a billion cars, on the road, in the world at the moment. Do you honestly think that 5 million of those have been modified?

In fact, you know what else is uncommon? People racing their production street cars. So best take out the racing too. All you get to do with road cars now is Photo Travel.

It's not uncommon at all. Have you ever played arcade mode > nurburgring, and gone for the GTR trophy? What do you think that is based off? Then there's the Bathurst 12 hour production race. The celebrity challenge before last weeks F1 race. And there's traffic lights all over the world where production cars race each other. Just to name a few.

No, they are not. If you want to apply real life statistics, then we shouldn't be able to own as many concept cars, race cars, and cars that are of limited production as you want. But we can do that in the game anyway. Your logic is flawed. The only thing your statement applies to is the actual driving.

There is nothing stopping you from producing concept vehicles. I used to make billy karts when I was a kid.
You just need some imagination.

 

[Tornado]

It was an educated guess. If you are not happy with that figure you are welcome to disprove it.

Nah, burden of proof isn't on my shoulders since I didn't bring it up. I'm instead just going to ignore it, because it's completely meaningless to the conversation now that you've admitted you made it up.

Out of the 60 million cars produced in 2012, how many would you think have been modified? There's over a billion cars, on the road, in the world at the moment. Do you honestly think that 5 million of those have been modified?

So you are saying that all customization should be removed from future GT titles, then. Good to know.

It's not uncommon at all. Have you ever played arcade mode > nurburgring, and gone for the GTR trophy? What do you think that is based off?

That's based off of the dick waving contest Nissan got into with the GT-R vs. Porsche with the 911 a few years ago; plus the Nurburgring is used as a testing ground anyway. Furthermore, Nissan have sold thousands of GT-Rs since then, and they've only taken a handful to the Nurburgring to set laptimes. Certainly less than 0.5% of the amount they've sold.

Then there's the Bathurst 12 hour production race. The celebrity challenge before last weeks F1 race. And there's traffic lights all over the world where production cars race each other. Just to name a few.

There's over a billion cars on the road. Do you think 5 million of them are raced in structured events as they are in GT5?

There is nothing stopping you from producing concept vehicles. I used to make billy karts when I was a kid.
You just need some imagination.

 

[jimipitbull]

So you are saying that all customization should be removed from future GT titles, then.

No, that's not what I am saying. The current level of customization would fall somewhere between common practice and 0.5%, which I deem sufficient. Customization (and photo mode, livery editor etc) aren't high on my priority list. I would rather see PD spend that time developing some interesting AI

That's based off of the dick waving contest Nissan got into with the GT-R vs. Porsche with the 911 a few years ago; plus the Nurburgring is used as a testing ground anyway. Furthermore, Nissan have sold thousands of GT-Rs since then, and they've only taken a handful to the Nurburgring to set laptimes. Certainly less than 0.5% of the amount they've sold.

I heard Nissan sits down to urinate, let alone waving their dicks around Germany.

It does get me thinking though - shouldn't hybriding cars also be classed as a dick waving contest?

 

[SunsetSailor]

This game really needs to be able to limit pp, hp, and weight simultaneously. The grip hack adds pp. Loads of it. Add too much and the car will do an endless wheelie, or drive on two wheels around turns. It will drive horribly and go off track and out of control on every bump.

I do hybrid cars myself, but sometimes you don't want to see hybrids in races. Like in leagues. I can tell most cars are modded by ride height, wheel width, engine noise, or by general speed. If i have a hp and weight limited lobby, i'll switch it up to pp for a quick bit as a way to catch modders. Really catches them off guard. I don't mind them, as long as you are honest with your specs, and are willing to take no for an answer.

Your choice of transparency is noble. However, there are so many more out there who wouldn't be so forthcoming. Let's face it: we're basically hoping to trust the word of hackers. We're hoping that cheats won't lie! Seriously?!

On another note:

I was just chatting with my friend in my open lobby about my post earlier. This friend feels the same way i do about hacked cars. When i suggested it was going to reach a point where people with legitimate cars, well-tuned and well-driven will be wrongly assumed of having a hacked car..

He exclaimed that he was falsely accused of that yesterday! What i just foretold is already happening! The name and reputation of Gran Turismo is being tarnished because we are losing confidence in the game's fairness.

This is why Sony can't possibly let this slide.

 

[Tornado]

No, that's not what I am saying. The current level of customization would fall somewhere between common practice and 0.5%, which I deem sufficient.

That is what you're saying, though. If what is "common practice" is the yardstick by what the GT series should allow, then all we should be able to do is change the air filter, the intake, the exhaust, the tires and the wheels. The current level of customization allowed would be far more involved in real life for most cars. Certainly farther removed from common practice than changing an engine to a more powerful one.



Changing an engine to forced induction could be as simple as buying a kit off the internet if you have a sufficiently hardy or popular engine; or you might have to custom fabricate everything about the intake to accept a turbocharger, and rebuild the engine block from the ground up to take the extra stress and/or lower the compression. To say nothing how adding even a hundred horsepower to a car without resorting to forced induction or engine swaps requires tons more work then even that; and usually requires you to custom build the engine from the block as well.

 

[1241Penguin]

Certainly less than 0.5% of the amount they've sold.

 

[arora]

.5% of people have either a fart tip or a bumper sticker on their car, is that the point?

 

[jimipitbull]

That is what you're saying, though. If what is "common practice" is the yardstick by what the GT series should allow, then all we should be able to do is change the air filter, the intake, the exhaust, the tires and the wheels. The current level of customization allowed would be far more involved in real life for most cars then swapping an engine would (which is a relatively straightforward modification for many popular car/engine choices. Certainly farther removed from common practice than changing an engine to a more powerful one.

Changing an engine to forced induction could be as simple as buying a kit off the internet if you have a sufficiently hardy or popular engine; or you might have to custom fabricate everything about the intake to accept a turbocharger, and rebuild the engine block from the ground up to take the extra stress and/or lower the compression. To say nothing how adding even a hundred horsepower to a car without resorting to forced induction or engine swaps requires tons more work then even that; and usually requires you to custom build the engine from the block as well.

A thicker head gasket will lower the compression....

Depending on which country/state you live in, it may be illegal to simply drop a larger engine in. Pollution laws in California would make such a task extremely difficult... unless you were putting a smaller engine in?

Some regions will require you to upgrade brakes and drivetrain, and then get modification plates. Then there's engine mounts, bellhousing, clutch, wiring, fuel system which may also require upgrading.

It can be much easier to port and polish the heads, install roller rockers, different cam profiles, stroker kit etc.

It really depends on where you live and what make/model/year the vehicle is.

In most cases you are better off buying a faster car from the UCD. Though I doubt you will find a 3000hp Honda Civic there.

 

[nickg07]

I've swapped the engine in my daily drive for something bigger. Engine swaps are fairly common in the UK car-modding scene.

YEA BLUD SOUNDS LEGIT. Dropping crated LS1's into Honda civics happens all the time round madchester. You should have seen this one guy. Blew me away at the lights said he had 3000 bhp...

 

[Exorcet]

YEA BLUD SOUNDS LEGIT. Dropping crated LS1's into Honda civics happens all the time round madchester. You should have seen this one guy. Blew me away at the lights said he had 3000 bhp...

 

[hogger129]

I think if people really have a problem with it, they should start their own room in Open Lobby and kick people who are using hacked cars. Otherwise, what's the big deal? I bought the game to have fun, and I'm having fun by hacking my cars. Engine swaps are done often in real life and if GT is a simulator, why shouldn't you be able to do engine swaps? Or build a drag car with 3000hp? It's not as "unrealistic" as people here are making it out to be.



Besides, I think it adds a level of skill to the game to build custom cars. Obviously not 100,000hp X1's, but if you do realistic mods, for example, my '69 Camaro Z/28 with the NASCAR motor in it. I did a '69 Corvette with a big block, too, since PD left the big block Corvettes out of the game all together.

 

[nickg07]

Real life statistics (which you still need to prove or they are meaningless for this discussion) aren't relevant to your statement for preventing detailed customization just because it is uncommon. Might as well strip all of the customization already in the game and turn the next GT game into a GTPSP style affair if we're following your logic.


In fact, you know what else is uncommon? People racing their production street cars. So best take out the racing too. All you get to do with road cars now is Photo Travel.


This is also a different (and actually valid) argument from the above.


Yes, everyone knows that hybriding in GT3 is the real reason that Posrche isn't in GT still.


And no one really is fussed by whatever reasons you want to label the people making hybrids under, btw.



This is incredibly disingenuous of you to put forward as an argument. Because people don't do the one extreme example and take Formula 1 engines and put them into Honda Civics in real life, it means it is barely done in real life at all and thus shouldn't be included? There are cars in the game right now (nevermind cars from previous games in the series) whose major point of interest is that they have an engine in them from something else. Should those be taken out, then?


My parents have, over a 20 year period, had 4 cars (out of 7) with engine swaps. Whoo!


Congratulations?


Love to know what the ignorance is beyond just "something I don't agree with" as it has typically been misused to mean throughout this thread.

You know the espace f1 example was a horrible one right? It was firstly made by Renault. Not upgraded in some back alley garage. Virtually no parts were from the espace from the chassis up it was custom. Except the shell.

Who else has access to Renault f1 engines?

Most of these engine swaps would be impossible due to space restrictions under the bonnet. Not to mention the electrics required to run it.

Or that they are changing chassis which effectively makers it a different car altogether. Your just re using the shell to purport that your car is x when its not at all.

Does the game calculate engine weight? How does the change impact the cars weight or the centre of gravity. Its not coded for that level if behind the scenes cheating.

 

[jimipitbull]

I think if people really have a problem with it, they should start their own room in Open Lobby and kick people who are using hacked cars. Otherwise, what's the big deal? I bought the game to have fun, and I'm having fun by hacking my cars. Engine swaps are possible in real life and if GT is a simulator, why shouldn't you be able to do engine swaps? Or build a drag car with 3000hp?

 

[Exorcet]

I think if people really have a problem with it, they should start their own room in Open Lobby and kick people who are using hacked cars. Otherwise, what's the big deal? I bought the game to have fun, and I'm having fun by hacking my cars.

Well there are a couple of real issues. The modded cars are harder to regulate than normal cars, not everyone wants to risk the consequences in trying to get them. Also the ability to do unregulated mods puts many parts of the game at risk.

There is certainly no reason to think that people should not be upset. It doesn't help when people go mindlessly blaming modders for all the problems though. The best end result would be incorporating mods into GT5 in a controlled manner. I see that as unlikely though.

 

[nickg07]

Exocet did they do a full chassis swap too? Did the extra weight screw the car up as anything but a one off freak show?

 

[Exorcet]

Who else has access to Renault f1 engines?

Who owns multiple original 1967 Ford MKIV's? GT Players.

Most of these engine swaps would be impossible due to space restrictions under the bonnet. Not to mention the electrics required to run it.

Does the game calculate engine weight? How does the change impact the cars weight or the centre of gravity. Its not coded for that level if behind the scenes cheating.

Vanilla GT5 doesn't calculate tire grip. For a long time it ignored induced drag.

Exocet did they do a full chassis swap too? Did the extra weight screw the car up as anything but a one off freak show?

The chassis was rebuilt in the later two cases, yes. The cars don't seem "screwed up" to me.

 

[Hei]

Your choice of transparency is noble. However, there are so many more out there who wouldn't be so forthcoming. Let's face it: we're basically hoping to trust the word of hackers. We're hoping that cheats won't lie! Seriously?!

On another note:

I was just chatting with my friend in my open lobby about my post earlier. This friend feels the same way i do about hacked cars. When i suggested it was going to reach a point where people with legitimate cars, well-tuned and well-driven will be wrongly assumed of having a hacked car..

He exclaimed that he was falsely accused of that yesterday! What i just foretold is already happening! The name and reputation of Gran Turismo is being tarnished because we are losing confidence in the game's fairness.

This is why Sony can't possibly let this slide.

It happens all the time. I know. It has always been an honor game. I hag around people who know when to use hybrids and when to use normal cars. If someone believes me of winning because of hybrids, I tell them to set up a recommended car race from the settings and to choose a car of their choice. You can't tune, hack or even touch those outside of aids and tires.




As for anyone who thinks swaps aren't commonplace, research more into the Honda community. Most swaps are possible even if they aren't practical. Here in Michigan, Civettes are common. Sure, not everyone has 3k hp, but then again, none of my hybrids do either. I am currently working on a 5.4l Shelby mustang. Is that so impractical?

 

[hogger129]

Well there are a couple of real issues. The modded cars are harder to regulate than normal cars, not everyone wants to risk the consequences in trying to get them. Also the ability to do unregulated mods puts many parts of the game at risk.

There is certainly no reason to think that people should not be upset. It doesn't help when people go mindlessly blaming modders for all the problems though. The best end result would be incorporating mods into GT5 in a controlled manner. I see that as unlikely though.

So we should only be allowed to do modifications that the game's creators "think" are realistic? Didn't that Kaz guy go on record saying you couldn't do engine swaps in real life? LOL. I would rather do the modding myself instead of what someone else deems "realistic."

Like I said, if people really take issue with it, they are still able to start their own lobbies and kick modded cars.

The real issue is when people jack up the horsepower to unrealistic levels. So perhaps instead of trying to get hackers banned, people should just sick PP or horsepower limits on their rooms if they want to control hacking.

Or kick people that are doing it and stop having a period.

 

[nickg07]

But does it calculate that a v8 in the front of a civic weighs more than a 2.0 and therefore would screw up the handling completely by making it nose heavy and effecting the distribution of the weight ? If not then clearly the notion of it being in anyway fair or close to real life is moot

 

[hogger129]

But does it calculate that a v8 in the front of a civic weighs more than a 2.0 and therefore would screw up the handling completely by making it nose heavy and effecting the distribution of the weight ? If not then clearly the notion of it being in anyway fair or close to real life is moot

I have had a few hybrids that handle poorly because the engine weighs so much. Such was the case with my W12 GTI. (For the record, they actually did make a W12 GTI, it was featured on Top Gear). Such was also the case with my Lotus Elise '96 that I put the engine from a '97 Supra RZ into.

 

[esoxhntr]

I have had a few hybrids that handle poorly because the engine weighs so much. Such was the case with my W12 GTI. (For the record, they actually did make a W12 GTI, it was featured on Top Gear). Such was also the case with my Lotus Elise '96 that I put the engine from a '97 Supra RZ into.

false, swapping engines does not transfer the donor motor's weight / physical characteristics.

the only swap that affects weight / weight distribution is the chassis swap.

 

[arora]

Are you saying you have a small penis?

 

[jimipitbull]

I am currently working on a 5.4l Shelby mustang. Is that so impractical?

Considering there were 5.8l versions, it does sound a bit strange. Should have cycled the UCD a few more times.

 

[Tornado]

Depending on which country/state you live in, it may be illegal to simply drop a larger engine in. Pollution laws in California would make such a task extremely difficult... unless you were putting a smaller engine in?

Pollution laws don't have much to do with the size or power of the engine anyway, and is a matter of bureaucracy rather than difficulty of the modification. You'd also face the exact same problems with emissions laws if you attempted to make such power without changing the engine, so it's a moot point.

YEA BLUD SOUNDS LEGIT. Dropping crated LS1's into Honda civics happens all the time round madchester. You should have seen this one guy. Blew me away at the lights said he had 3000 bhp...

Where exactly did he say people in the U.K. specifically put LS1 engines in Honda Civics?

You know the espace f1 example was a horrible one right? It was firstly made by Renault. Not upgraded in some back alley garage. Virtually no parts were from the espace from the chassis up it was custom. Except the shell.

Who else has access to Renault f1 engines?

Who said I was referring to the Espace F1 in the first place? GT2 had several cars which were started life with different engines than the ones they had. The RUF CTR2 started out life as a 993 Carrera, which Ruf swapped the 911 turbo engine in and then worked from there (because not all Ruf models are built from the ground up). The HKS Drag Silvia presumably didn't originally come with a Skyline GT-R engine in it. Shelby Cobra wasn't originally designed to take a 7 liter Ford NASCAR engine. There are more examples; those are just off the top of my head and before even getting to GT4/GT5.


I'm actually curious if you're arguing against engine swaps, period; or if you're arguing against hybriding. Your arguments take a little bit from both columns.

 

[jimipitbull]

So we should only be allowed to do modifications that the game's creators "think" are realistic? Didn't that Kaz guy go on record saying you couldn't do engine swaps in real life? LOL. I would rather do the modding myself instead of what someone else deems "realistic."

You might want to research the relevant Japanese vehicle emission laws before making such comments.

Unless you put smaller motors in your Civic?

 

[Tornado]

Engine swaps exist in Japan too.

 

[playnthru]

Are you saying you have a small penis?

That's what she said..................