Should PD have let the modding slide? ... OP Updated.
- Thread starter MOTORTRENDmitch
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To get back on topic...
"Should PD have let the modding slide".
No.
Pre 2.12 there were a couple of edge cases where the modding allowed undetectable "cheating" in online lobbies (e.g. the ultra-low aero NASCAR). In this case no restrictions, BHP/Weight, PP or a combination of the two (if possible) were able to remove them from the lobby. This is simply due to the [in this case beneficial] reduction of aero lowering the PP of the car in question.
Unfortunately this deprecates the assertions made that hybriding is accounted for by the PP system as in this edge, but not uncommon, case it simply doesn't and can't.
NASCAR also brings up another edge case...
Due to the slider options in setting up HP not being granular down to a single figure you can only limit HP to a "near enough" setting (in the case of most NASCAR rooms 897HP). When everyone is running standard tuned cars this limit IS good enough (fully broken in NASCARs come in at ~892HP) however once you bring externally modded cars to the party this limit is no longer sufficient.
This small sounding 5HP makes one hell of a difference on a oval in a race where the three main strategic elements are fuel saving in a draft, pit strategy and solo, no draft pace.
Where this extra 5HP is combined with lower aero than is possible on a car tuned using only PD provided tools you have an undetectable AND virtually unbeatable combination (given an approximately equal level of "skill").
I appreciate that drive train swaps etc. are wanted by many but unfortunately this method of applying swaps/mods has removed the level playing field in online racing (in some cases, outlined above) and PD should therefore do everything in their power to limit this modding to offline only usage.
Though NASCAR is only one small part of the a wider community it deserves the same respect and rights (to run without fear of "cheating") as any other segment of the GT5 community supported by in game functions/features.
From what I have read in this thread (beyond the usual vocal and oft incoherent extremists on either side), the hybriding community asserts that they don't want to introduce "cheating" into the online community anyway so I am surprised there is such outrage to 2.12 (disregarding the poor implementation).
Off topic:
To be honest, the level of angst shown in this thread (and the "will you update to 2.12" thread) by both sides is silly and unfair. Calling each other names and baiting one another is NEVER acceptable and casts the GT5 community in less than positive light.
"Should PD have let the modding slide".
No.
Pre 2.12 there were a couple of edge cases where the modding allowed undetectable "cheating" in online lobbies (e.g. the ultra-low aero NASCAR). In this case no restrictions, BHP/Weight, PP or a combination of the two (if possible) were able to remove them from the lobby. This is simply due to the [in this case beneficial] reduction of aero lowering the PP of the car in question.
Unfortunately this deprecates the assertions made that hybriding is accounted for by the PP system as in this edge, but not uncommon, case it simply doesn't and can't.
NASCAR also brings up another edge case...
Due to the slider options in setting up HP not being granular down to a single figure you can only limit HP to a "near enough" setting (in the case of most NASCAR rooms 897HP). When everyone is running standard tuned cars this limit IS good enough (fully broken in NASCARs come in at ~892HP) however once you bring externally modded cars to the party this limit is no longer sufficient.
This small sounding 5HP makes one hell of a difference on a oval in a race where the three main strategic elements are fuel saving in a draft, pit strategy and solo, no draft pace.
Where this extra 5HP is combined with lower aero than is possible on a car tuned using only PD provided tools you have an undetectable AND virtually unbeatable combination (given an approximately equal level of "skill").
I appreciate that drive train swaps etc. are wanted by many but unfortunately this method of applying swaps/mods has removed the level playing field in online racing (in some cases, outlined above) and PD should therefore do everything in their power to limit this modding to offline only usage.
Though NASCAR is only one small part of the a wider community it deserves the same respect and rights (to run without fear of "cheating") as any other segment of the GT5 community supported by in game functions/features.
From what I have read in this thread (beyond the usual vocal and oft incoherent extremists on either side), the hybriding community asserts that they don't want to introduce "cheating" into the online community anyway so I am surprised there is such outrage to 2.12 (disregarding the poor implementation).
Off topic:
To be honest, the level of angst shown in this thread (and the "will you update to 2.12" thread) by both sides is silly and unfair. Calling each other names and baiting one another is NEVER acceptable and casts the GT5 community in less than positive light.
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- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Johnny, please reread my post. In the case I outlined combining PP, weight and HP will still NOT allow NASCAR hosts to remove ultra low aero cars from the lobby as removing downforce LOWERS PP.
It's Monday so imperfect reading comprehension can be blamed on a hangover.
It's Monday so imperfect reading comprehension can be blamed on a hangover.
t_w_a_h, 2.12 did nothing to address the issue of lowering Aero beyond what is normally allowed I can still edit the aero values to 0/0 on a race car (thus lowering PP), or, 15/20 on a street car (thus increasing PP) with this patch.
in fact, 2.12 still allows ALL the 'undetectable' stuff while patching the stuff that was 'detectable' out.
what you cannot do anymore is swap engines/chassis. both these items were 'detectable' in the sense that they affected PP.
in fact, 2.12 still allows ALL the 'undetectable' stuff while patching the stuff that was 'detectable' out.
what you cannot do anymore is swap engines/chassis. both these items were 'detectable' in the sense that they affected PP.
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- 61
- N/A
- N/A
The hybriding was fine with the realistic mods, and super tuned for only SSRX.
But now that they are gone, I felt a little part of me missing as to my really nice cars.
So after a couple days of thinking, "Should I update or??.."
But I did some diggin' around and made a realistic 1500HP SpeedHunters Viper GTS.
Long live twin turbo!
But now that they are gone, I felt a little part of me missing as to my really nice cars.
So after a couple days of thinking, "Should I update or??.."
But I did some diggin' around and made a realistic 1500HP SpeedHunters Viper GTS.
Long live twin turbo!
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Johnny, please reread my post. In the case I outlined combining PP, weight and HP will still NOT allow NASCAR hosts to remove ultra low aero cars from the lobby as removing downforce LOWERS PP.
It's Monday so imperfect reading comprehension can be blamed on a hangover.
Still can be resolved by a simultaneous PP/HP check. On a Nascar 15 aero is about 5PP. While everyone is on track before the race starts a random HP/PP check by keeping HP at 892 and lowering PP by 5 points will boot off all the legit drivers and the cheater will be able to remain on track. Problem solved. Since you can adjust PP by as little as 1 you can catch someone cheating with as little as -3 aero if you want.
It'll mess up the grid order if you do qualifying but it solves the problem of cheating. If you use reverse grid or based on previous race it will have no effect on the starting grid.
The HP is a little trickier because it depends on where the PP ticks over when adding HP but we're operating under the assumption that PD has accepted hybrids and adjusted the room parameters accordingly. That being the case, if someone was concerned about it, they could just hybrid their cars to 897 and it becomes the de facto standard. Or PD could make the HP slider so it works in increments of 1, which it should anyway. Having hybriding allowed would completely change Nascar anyway because you'd have a big advantage by adding 100hp and using the engine limiter to detune and flattening out the HP and torque curves so you'd have bigger problems on your hands than a couple of extra HP.
But those problems can also be solved. Adding a "hybrid" check box to disallow hybrids altogether in any room if the host chooses. Again, problem solved.
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- 1,130
- Mexico City
- ppmike921
- MikeB0ssMan
I'm glad that all of you hackers/cheaters are pleased with GT5 and will continue to play it just to keep cheating, great!
Now, does that mean we (honest people) won't see you in GT6? Oh god, yes please!!! Please make that happen.
Stay with you perfect/broken/hacked GT5, don't make it to GT6, you guys won't be welcomed.
Now, does that mean we (honest people) won't see you in GT6? Oh god, yes please!!! Please make that happen.
Stay with you perfect/broken/hacked GT5, don't make it to GT6, you guys won't be welcomed.
- 61
- N/A
- N/A
- 6,985
- United States
PepeMickey
Who are you talking about?
I play GT5 still with or without hybriding.
Also get your facts straight about hybriding before you call people cheaters. Not everyone that made/owned a hybrid were cheaters.
I have no interest in cheating hints why even after the update I am not making ridiculous HP cars (which by the way are still in the game after the 2.12 update. You can thank PD for their half *** update)
Realistic swaps are gone but the unrealistic cars (that most people who made hybrids were against by the way) are still there.
Mitsubishi
Some people just have no idea what they are talking about and still comment about the subject. I am still laughing in amazement at people like him that have absolutely no knowledge on what they are talking about.
- 1,130
- Mexico City
- ppmike921
- MikeB0ssMan
Lock2Lock
Good, please stay in GT5, the **** stain in the GT family, that's where you cheaters belong.
- 3,768
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
Keep in mind that on this forum, the accused "cheaters" are avid fans and from what I've seen, very accomplished players. The modding offered a new challenge rather than an easy win.
If I wanted an easy win, I'd race with an LFA.
By the way, here's another real life example of modding.
http://jalopnik.com/for-11-500-be-rude-loud-and-obnoxious-483843105
Chevy engine, 911 suspension...lots of drool
There is also this one truth about business; The customer is always right. The right move is to support the users desires for more extensive modification of the cars. My hope is that all of this will affect the feature set of GT6. If we get modding in GT6, hooray. If we get 10 year old tracks with new texture maps...well...It's not really worth paying for something I already have.
If I wanted an easy win, I'd race with an LFA.
By the way, here's another real life example of modding.
http://jalopnik.com/for-11-500-be-rude-loud-and-obnoxious-483843105
Chevy engine, 911 suspension...lots of drool
There is also this one truth about business; The customer is always right. The right move is to support the users desires for more extensive modification of the cars. My hope is that all of this will affect the feature set of GT6. If we get modding in GT6, hooray. If we get 10 year old tracks with new texture maps...well...It's not really worth paying for something I already have.
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- 6,985
- United States
PepeMickey
Your lack of knowledge on hybrids is just making you look more and more stupid every time you post.
Nope I will be on GT6. I don't need hybrids to play. That's what you don't get. You are not any different from the ignorant/bias people that come into this thread with absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Gain a little knowledge on the subject before you comment with stupidity.
Might just make you look smarter than the other people.
So once again your childish name calling doesn't apply to me, I have never cheated.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
I find it endlessly ironic, as someone mentioned several times already but it bears repeating, that the one thing that started all the hybriding hysteria, massively overpowered cars that break the PP system, are still possible and still out there, but all the realistic stuff that actually enhanced the game and brought people back to GT5, are now gone.
You know if this stuff was happening in a TV show or movie, you'd look at it and say, "seriously, no one can be that stupid, you can't run a business that way"...and yet here we are.
Just as funny is the small minded people hopping up and down with glee thinking hybrids were all cheating and are so happy because they think they are gone, when the absolute worst thing about them remains.
You know if this stuff was happening in a TV show or movie, you'd look at it and say, "seriously, no one can be that stupid, you can't run a business that way"...and yet here we are.
Just as funny is the small minded people hopping up and down with glee thinking hybrids were all cheating and are so happy because they think they are gone, when the absolute worst thing about them remains.
- 1,130
- Mexico City
- ppmike921
- MikeB0ssMan
Lock2Lock
Nope, I know a crapload about hybrids but I choose to stay away from it and call you a cheater because you did illegal stuff, you didn't play by the rules, simple as that. Got it?
- 6,985
- United States
PepeMickey
Nope not that simple. I never used them in a race or competition so no i didn't cheat.
Yeah I do agree I violated the ToS. Big whoop. I have accepted that. Doesn't mean i can't play without hybrids. You obviously don't know what they are used for. And now you obviously have no clue how to use the term cheat correctly either.
What's next are you going to call me a thief too? Or have I graduated to another false criminal offense? Maybe next is going to be rape or murder.
CallmeDan
Exactly right.
- 5,759
- USA
- TPC_Raccooon23
- CRaccoon23
Why don't you cut out the holier than thou attitude and actually learn what cheating is.
- 3,768
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
I think we should simply make that 914 our poster child 💡
As for the "well I don't like hella flush, drifting, modding is stupid" group. When the discussion involves a game that is supposed to sell close to 10 million copies, you will run into a lot of differing opinions.
With the rise of sites like http://www.stanceworks.com/ it's easy to see that despite a vocal group of staunch purists, there is a greater movement in the car culture and not keeping pace would be a detriment to the franchise.
As for the "well I don't like hella flush, drifting, modding is stupid" group. When the discussion involves a game that is supposed to sell close to 10 million copies, you will run into a lot of differing opinions.
With the rise of sites like http://www.stanceworks.com/ it's easy to see that despite a vocal group of staunch purists, there is a greater movement in the car culture and not keeping pace would be a detriment to the franchise.
Yes, I was aware of this but it didn't seem relevant to the point. I appreciate that writing "pre 2.12..." may have implied that it was - blame the aforementioned Monday hangover.
Thanks however for bringing that to the attention of others on GTP who perhaps did not know these variables could still be amended outside of the game itself.
Interestingly, for me at least, this illustrates another issue with hybrids: GTP and fansites in general only account for a limited number of end users. I have been into several lobbies with good and regular hosts who had no idea hybrid cars existed (pre and post 2.12).
This is understandable given the new "rules of engagement" are not in anyway part of the game itself and rely on the host being a well informed netizen or at least to keep their proverbial ear to the proverbial ground.
This again leads to a playing field that is not level: how can a host mitigate for something he has no idea exists?
Problem worked around, not really solved.
Whilst I appreciate this is a good enough work around in many cases, as you note below this doesn't work when you run online qualifying laps so it can't be considered a solution.
Some of my German friends use just this method for a variety of pre-race checks however it still doesn't stop the hardy, willful and genuinely deceitful cheats (who simply swap cars between checks if he/she knows they are coming and give it some flannel if questioned).
The host in question has even taken to not joining the track until the race is starting (the countdown hits 20) to ensure no late car swaps and no late tyre swaps but this is a hardly ideal (and the poor dude misses the count in 1 in 5 races so we have to restart).
Expecting the host to be attentive to every change a player makes pre-race is asking a lot. This isn't our day job after all!
Additionally, I'm not even sure why hosts should have to do even more work in order to get around issues caused by a different subsection of the community with desires for the game which do not fall within the "known norm" (i.e. the tools provided by the game itself). This probably doesn't seem like much to many members of GTP but if you have ever run any online series, or even just a regular online lobby, you'll know what a chore the admin can be.
On an anecdotal note, these additional checks and the uncertainty that they will catch out all "cheats" has made big [gap] wins a little uncomfortable and has led to several "you must be cheating" conversations that should not be necessary.
I myself finished 40 seconds up on the rest of the pack in a 3 stop NASCAR race (through good/risky/lucky fuel strategy) and was accused of all sorts of "hacking" before being slammed with a number of less than friendly names.
Luckily I had raced with the host many times before so he made light of it telling the room to "man up and realise he's a jammy b'tard but not a cheat, he's too dumb and waaaay too British for that".
This would be an ideal solution but I have no idea how practical this would be, I would also suggest that given the game is three years old PD want a quick and dirty solution and would prefer not to unpick and rebuild too much (at cost).
Anyway, I have nothing further to contribute specific to the issue at hand so the next couple of paragraphs should be considered rambling...
My personal feelings are that this needs to be patched properly in the short term and in the longer term PD needs to work on introducing additional customisation options in later episodes of the series (or explain to fans why they don't want to/can't).
I do think however that whatever PD adds it won't be enough and the community will still work hard to "get around" the limitations set in place by the game itself.
Forza has endless customisation but it still quickly became common knowledge that patching default.xex led to all sorts of possibilities for modding outside of the game....
The human condition I guess.
Have a lovely evening all folks.
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- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
....snip...
Have a lovely evening all folks.
Understood, and therein lies the problem. PD allowing hybriding within the game, does not affect hybriding outside the game. That is, assuming PD allowed certain things to happen like drivetrain swaps, engine swaps etc, does not preclude someone doing what was already done and also introducing grip mulipliers, hidden downforce etc. Unless they find a way to completely block all cars modded outside of the game, allowing it inside the game will have no effect on the "aero cheaters, grip mulitipliers, power multipliers" etc.
That's why, even if they allow some kind of modding in the future within the game, they still need to introduce controls to keep cars hybrided outside the game, out of lobbies. If I were PD I'd do my best to control it with internal programming, but I would also assume people will get around it, and introduce parameters into lobbies like simultaneous HP/PP/Weight/Aero etc. settings, which will also benefit the game used "legally" for lack of a better word.
Allowing aero settings to be set to 0/0 for example would instantly eliminate the d-bag who decides he must drive a race car in a room entitled, "STREETCARSONLY". Would also allow series organizers that wish to run with limited aero to choose allowable aero settings for their lobbies.
The cat is out of the bag and he's not going back in. Either PD finds a way to bulletproof lobbies or they have to introduce more controls for hosts. Do both and there's much less to worry about.
- 5,139
- SLO
- playnthru
All I got is your butt is hurt from your "crapload" of knowledge.
Keep posting, it's the funniest stuff on GTP right now.
Hey Johnny, it's nice to have an adult discussion on GTP even if it is book ended by schoolyard antics... 👍
Hybrid proponents, read what Johnny says and how he says it. You'll trap way more ants with sugar than with vinegar.
Yes, I am aware of this.
The most simple (but not least costly) way to avoid it is to implement cars and parts checks server side for online lobbies so although you can mod your cars in anyway you desire offline, a code modified car can be allowed/disallowed online.
All of the cars, parts and variables are simply numbers stored in a database (broadly speaking) so performing this kind of validation is pretty bread and butter.
I couldn't agree more. I have been a proponent for this since (and before) GT5 came out. Ideally as host I want to be able to set very very explicit regulations right down to individual parts and variables within parts, for example I might want to run a series where cars can be adjusted in terms of power, weight and balance but cannot have the suspension or LSD values amended or perhaps a fixed gearbox ratio for each track in a series.
I even want to control tiny lobby details like which view you can use. A friend and I were discussing how much fun it would be to have a 'ring track day lobby where only premium cars and only cockpit view (sans HUD) is enforced to try for a fully virtual and immersive track day experience.
Combine that with Occulus Rift-esque technology and the [relatively] high power of the PS4 and holy mama, I get a little moist...
It won't happen but why spoil a cracking fantasy.
I see GT5 as PD going through their spotty, unsure, why-is-my-voice-all-squeaky, teenage years. GT5 smacks of idealistic naievity in the way many things have been designed and implemented. They haven't quite yet adapted to the brave new world of online anything goes gaming where your consumers have as many technical skills as a chunk of your dev team and they have a forum for creativity and information sharing as large as the internet.
I just hope they move through this learning stage and grow into well rounded, optimistic, client responsive developers, and not a bunch of cynical "the client is always evil" b'tards like many have and many more will....
Have a great day y'all.
Hybrid proponents, read what Johnny says and how he says it. You'll trap way more ants with sugar than with vinegar.
Yes, I am aware of this.
The most simple (but not least costly) way to avoid it is to implement cars and parts checks server side for online lobbies so although you can mod your cars in anyway you desire offline, a code modified car can be allowed/disallowed online.
All of the cars, parts and variables are simply numbers stored in a database (broadly speaking) so performing this kind of validation is pretty bread and butter.
I couldn't agree more. I have been a proponent for this since (and before) GT5 came out. Ideally as host I want to be able to set very very explicit regulations right down to individual parts and variables within parts, for example I might want to run a series where cars can be adjusted in terms of power, weight and balance but cannot have the suspension or LSD values amended or perhaps a fixed gearbox ratio for each track in a series.
I even want to control tiny lobby details like which view you can use. A friend and I were discussing how much fun it would be to have a 'ring track day lobby where only premium cars and only cockpit view (sans HUD) is enforced to try for a fully virtual and immersive track day experience.
Combine that with Occulus Rift-esque technology and the [relatively] high power of the PS4 and holy mama, I get a little moist...
It won't happen but why spoil a cracking fantasy.
I see GT5 as PD going through their spotty, unsure, why-is-my-voice-all-squeaky, teenage years. GT5 smacks of idealistic naievity in the way many things have been designed and implemented. They haven't quite yet adapted to the brave new world of online anything goes gaming where your consumers have as many technical skills as a chunk of your dev team and they have a forum for creativity and information sharing as large as the internet.
I just hope they move through this learning stage and grow into well rounded, optimistic, client responsive developers, and not a bunch of cynical "the client is always evil" b'tards like many have and many more will....
Have a great day y'all.
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- 13,267
- GTPlanet
- Street-King-07
- Quattro Saltire
- 8,843
- Ottawa
- Automotive_Buff
Well yeah... it has becoming all out mudslinging, but the hybriders have stated they're reasons and solutions to the problem of cheaters (Johnny has stated it a lot of times, actually) and now it's just new anti-hybriders who came late to the thread stating the same thing as every other anti-hybrider out there.... For now, let's enjoy the mudslinging....
Downhill Dino
Premium
- 11,753
- Maryland
- DownhillDinosaur
I just thought about this. When people talk about cheaters, how do you know they're talking about every person who creates or uses a hybrid? Unless they say so of course, but it seems people may be getting offended and throwing insults for not even being called out in the first place.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Don't paint everyone with the same brush. Most of us are having an adult discussion on this. When the odd joker comes with no facts and nothing but attitude you can't expect people not to respond. Doesn't get overlooked in any other thread and this one is no different.
Agreed, with all of it. PD's two greatest weaknesses are incredibly poor communication, especially given the tools available in 2013, and their lack of responsiveness to consumer demands. I get the whole "things cost money" argument that many put forward for why this or that isn't in the game, but a great many of the changes that would make the game much better in my opinion, cost peanuts, things such as allowing many more toggle switches in setting up lobbies, including the aforementioned limiting of views, simultaneous HP/PP/Weight/Aero settings etc. Hybriding is just another piece of the puzzle, and until you get the basics of online gaming down pat, which they surely have not, hybriding just improves an already weak online racing setup.
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