gtracedriver
(Banned)
- 603
"Standard Car" does not correspond to the interior view.Update read 1st page
- Thread starter JDMKING13
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- Toronto
- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
I am just sayingBecause I think it is easily possible, there are some PC games in which modders can do it. To include or not ? is going to be PD decision. Also it will look far superior to that video as everything there is low res.
If the models aren't updated, even GT5's fantastic lighting engine won't be able to hide how poor those interiors are, unlike the exteriors.
I'm fine with them not including cockpit views on convertible Standards, just because I feel seeing a brand new track like Toscana with a blocky interior of a few hundred polys and flat, simple textures (and non-working guages) might ruin the overall feeling of quality. And going to the effort of giving just convertible/topless Standards a new interior seems like an odd choice for the team... essentially giving us a three-tier system.
gtracedriver
(Banned)
- 603
- 6,804
- The Netherlands
All good and well but you do realise those interiors visible on the open top cars are part of the exterior?
Meaning that everything you see using chase cam ( including seats, steering wheel and even the driver ) are part of the exterior model.
Even with those visible interiors you still have to completely model the interior you see in cockpit view just as you would on those cars which have a fixed or closed roof.
Cockpit view is a seperate feature, you can't just use the same interior you see on those open top cars in chase cam.
- 4,323
High res textures on low poly count actually often emphasizes the low poly count... the contrast between sharp detailed textures and harsh awkard edges makes things worse.
That and the fact that they need to go GET those high quality textures. They might have some source for them already but if all that was kept was the GT4 quality textures, they can't just magically make them better without going and getting new high quality ones.
I wouldn't be so sure of that... I don't think they have to model an interior for interior view and a seperate one for interior view... just stick the camera in the right place.
- 6,804
- The Netherlands
No maybe with a Premium car they could use the same interior model, but those GT4 models didn't have cockpit view and unfortunately it seems they won't be having cockpit view ( although still not certain ofcourse ) as Standard cars either ( if they did, the interiors would probably have to be modelled again to be suitable for cockpit view ).
gtracedriver
(Banned)
- 603
I am not sure about it. Because anyways they have to model those things in other views. Like they have done in premium interior views and they are showing it. The only problem they have in close ups because they would only like to show it if it looks good. S600 does seems to have high quality interior as it is some 50yrs old. If it was, say SLR Sir Stirling Moss edition then they have to do lots in interior.
- 6,804
- The Netherlands
Just because a car is old doesn't justify it being less detailed, the interiors of those classic cars take just as much time and care to model than a modern one I guess.
You must not confuse the graphics of a game which is outdated with the details of a classic car interior...........
See?
gtracedriver
(Banned)
- 603
If it is not premium there is no way they will model all that stuff. I am just talking about the wheel and the dash board as it is quite basic. Which I think they can include it. Whether or not they will have it ? I do not know.
Never underestimate the power of pixels thousands more of pixel will always help
Image quality will be better of course definitely not as blurry as that 
Never underestimate the power of pixels thousands more of pixel will always help
Image quality will be better of course definitely not as blurry as that - 4,323
Well I am not talking quality, but purely from a functional standpoint, in a 3D game like GT, if you want a cockpit view, all you really have to to do is set the camera location inside the cabin. How ugly or what you will see is all a seperate issue.
The point was it's not like using sprites or an overlay image where you use one for outside view, and then for another you load a whole different set of assets to show.
Never underestimate the power of pixels thousands more of pixel will always help
I have seen it go both ways... being at low resolution hides a lot of uglies... take an old game like Tomb Raider... at 320x240 software rendered the chunkies rounded out weird corners and smoothed blotchy textures.
Run that at 1280x1024 and all of a sudden her arms are made of triangles and her hair is paper thin! And her skin is some weird stripey chunky gradient of pinkish orange.
Up the texture quality and now the chunky may go out of stuff but it the low polygon shapes REALLY stand out.
Look back at that old C5R comparison... even between GT4 and GT5 you can see in the low resolution interpolated GT4 world the spot where it hits the door is kind of camoflaged... but in the GT5 standard car shot, when things are higher res, it's a pretty ugly seem that makes the mirror appear to not even be attached to the car from some angles.
- 6,804
- The Netherlands
To be honest I don't have a clue how they're doing it and I guess what you say might be true although I wasn't only relating purely to quality.
I always ( perhaps wrongly ) assumed that the interior modeling for cockpit view and the interior visible in chase cam ( both open top and closed cars ) were seperately done using shared data ofcourse.
It would seem logical that a "downgraded" version of a highly detailed interior in cockpit view might be used for the one visible from the exterior ( as it might not need all the detail not seen from the exterior ) but as you say it could perhaps also apply the other way around.
gtracedriver
(Banned)
- 603
lower res never helps it only make it little blurry where nothing can be seen clearly. You cannot compare with that video pics of standard cars. It was not meant to show the side rear view mirrors. Probably they improve it. For non hardtop cars to have the option of cockpit view they know they will have to model very few things apart from the wheel and since the player will be right in front of it they will obviously much better quality texture not very blurry ones.
If they are going to include then it will look something like this I guess:
- 4,323
I beg to differ... lower resolution can often cover up minor imperfections similarly to how photographers often use a difuse focus filter. While I wouldn't say a lower resolution is better overall, often I have found upgrading to new hardware that lets me run stuff at higher resolutions than before has resulted in the uglies being more clear and easier to see.
Go back and grab some really old games like Unreal or Quake. In low resolution software rendering they are pretty ugly overall but things look reasonable for the resolution. Show them at high resolution and all of a sudden nothing looks even remotely believable anymore, it's jsut a big collection of triangles and weird geometry.
Blurry can be your friend sometimes...
Please explain this logic... you can't use the frame grabs from the video? Why not? If anything in the case we are looking at video distortion would HELP the cause not hurt it... we are trying to see telltail harsh edges and detail similarities, the only thing that might happen from being captured from a video is (ironically) the softening and blurring I was talking about before. And actually it's not the case in the C5R picture a lot of it is very sharp and what's not is not very much obscured at all. In this is about the best source short of photo mode. You are getting direct capture video of replay mode... that's almost as good as it gets, hardly an unfair source.
As for they didn't mean to show the sideview and they probably improved it, what reasoning do you have to back that? From what I have seen PD carefully choose all the media they officially release to be as beneficial as possible.
Other than a convenient excuse, what makes you say that the video is not an acceptable source and that they have probably improved this mirror (mind you that is not even addressing the entire rest of the car which would also need improving - basically it wasn't JUST the mirror, that just happened to be what I pointed out).
- 302
I think people are missing a few very important facts. First, and most importantly we all know how perfectionist Kaz is; although perfectionist this doesn't mean he has all the time in the world to release GT as he would have wanted to, but I am sure that there's a whole team over at polyphony studios, trying to hide all their 'imperfections'... as they see it that is.
So, I am absolutely positive that if there's an interior view and considering that the playstation camera is used, the whole inside of the car HAS to complete or not be there at all. It seems strange to me that there won't be interiors for the standard cars since it's essential for a racing game especially of this magnitude. It still sounds curious to me for them to spend 2.5 years modeling a track and leave interiors out..
Moreover, I am sure that they will sort things out so that previous versions' models aren't alien to the rest of the environment.. So, we'll have to wait and see. Although I am a pessimist in my life, I am very optimistic about the standard car issue...
So, I am absolutely positive that if there's an interior view and considering that the playstation camera is used, the whole inside of the car HAS to complete or not be there at all. It seems strange to me that there won't be interiors for the standard cars since it's essential for a racing game especially of this magnitude. It still sounds curious to me for them to spend 2.5 years modeling a track and leave interiors out..
Moreover, I am sure that they will sort things out so that previous versions' models aren't alien to the rest of the environment.. So, we'll have to wait and see. Although I am a pessimist in my life, I am very optimistic about the standard car issue...
- 6,804
- The Netherlands
I agree that it probably is all or nothing regarding interiors, as much as I love interior view I can't really see the point of a generic or blackframe option either.
Like you I'm a pessimist or cynic in general ( it somehow works better for me
) but unfortunately that's also the outlook I have on this issue at the moment and I agree that although being far from a perfect situation a compromise consisting of poor looking interiors isn't most likely an option a "perfectionist" like Kaz would choose over simply not offering them.It's either going to be perfect or not showing imperfection.
- 924
- Engine Block
sorry for gitting out of topic
but that AI is amazing .. that what we want in GT5
- 2,110
- Russia
Holy crap!!!Sorry if I late, but look at this!
http://us.gran-turismo.com/us/news/d5247.html
"*Standard cars do not support vehicle interior camera views."
http://us.gran-turismo.com/us/news/d5247.html
"*Standard cars do not support vehicle interior camera views."
- 2,586
- trk29
I thought you already knew about this? Thats what this whole thread is about.
- 2,110
- Russia
^^^ Hope is dying last...
- 10,269
- Bonn
- GTAce
sorry for gitting out of topic
but that AI is amazing .. that what we want in GT5
It isn't that amazing, it always depends on the track.
On some tracks, the AI will bump you almost lke in GT4, in a game with so much realism and a damage model, it can get really annoying.
gtracedriver
(Banned)
- 603
Actually I hope they can update the texture do various other enchantment. Since the standard cars is a part of GT5 not a separate game like GT4 port. It looks really good just even from the grabs taken by that video
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4446/gt5std1.jpg
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/4373/gt5c5rstd2.jpg
Also there must be some reason why they haven't shown standard cars pics. Probably it is not ready and other is obviously they want to show the gorgeous premium cars instead to wow the public. Your theory about low res texture is so wrong
They always try to make it as high as they can but there is always a limit. All these decision was probably taken some years back but I do not think they have to take shortcuts for the convertible and non hardtop cars like they did with PS2
Yes because its the way that it is,or at least it seems to be,but think about it if they are saving that for themselves,then announce standard cars will have cockpits,it will be a huge lol over forza fans,but we have to wait until new info but get use to the idea its what it seems more likely.
- 4,323
Your theory about low res texture is so wrong
I think this is a case of not understnding what I am saying but what can I really do about that since I have explained it as best I can.
It just comes down to sometimes ugly textures help hide ugly geometry or at least not make it stand out as much.
If you don't understand how that works, ok, but it absolutely does.
the Interceptor
Premium
- 4,114
- Germany
- theInterceptor77
Well, there were drivers in all cars in GT4 as well. So given that the standard cars were ported from GT4, there will be drivers in the cars. I still see both options as possible until we get more soild information, but at least this video frame is not an indication that we will have cockpits in standard cars.
- 9,295
- Duisburg
The reason is a pretty simple one. Showing stuff like the dated models that are used for the standard cars isn't going to be positive PR. Not at all. And I doubt it will ever be. They don't look nowhere near as good as what PD was showing since they moved on from GT HD/Visions. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm quite certain that PD will keep the amount of footage they're going to release of the standards to a minimum.
Well, personally, I think this theory is spot on. For example, I've recently picked up Starcraft, in preperation for Starraft II's release this month. Played the game in full screen mode, and guess what, it looks horrible. But, when playing it in window mode at 640x480 (or somethign), it doesn't look nearly as bad, because you can't actually spot all of the shortcomings that easily. And that's about it, it's not better looking, you just can't see the shortcomings that easy.Your theory about low res texture is so wrong
Did you expect PD to model standard and premium driver models? They just took the same driver model and stuck it both inside the premiums and the standards. You could see the driver in GT4 as well, but the cars still did not have modelles interiors.
SrRd RacinG
(Banned)
- 2,948
- SrRd-RacinG
lol, GT4 cars have drivers. Check out the convertibles. You can see their entire body in chase cam view. Doesn't mean much.
In my honest opinion, either there are no cockpits or PD is scrambling since E3, after we rioted, to make up something adequate for the standard models.
In my honest opinion, either there are no cockpits or PD is scrambling since E3, after we rioted, to make up something adequate for the standard models.
what you are trying to mention in your post is the use of low quality textures to hide the low polygon count for each model,maybe you have work in 3D max,where there is a huge example of this,lower resolution textures will hide low polygon count,now as you know the 3D element had to be also integrated to the game engine and its features in example the mechanical damage,the dirt, scratches and other features if the weather is a feature in GT5.
Since this are 3D models that will be in showcase(in example garage)you point will be right,sadly the cars will not be only on showcase and the will be on the game engine, which have to manage the calculations for crashes,mechanical damage, lighting(but it will be another part of the cell that have to manage this)dirt accumulation and more features if they include weather then you will be wrong because they have to use newer dev tools.
Since this is a new console with different programming language and newer features they will not use old textures and re-script them to match newer standards,instead they use newer dev tools since is where my whole point goes.
Since 3D models are mostly use to be shown but not to be use,and for games the actual 3d model have to be use(in precise terms scripted) it has to keep up with the engine, which process and it has to maintain a certain amount of memory to don't crash or charge the console itself,what Kaz meant with"PS3 limits" he meant amount of memory usage because for the PS3 is 512 MB,and the ram model is faster but it has a limit of 512 MB.
Obviously we will see mixed races with premiums and standards but then the engine is configure to keep up with a single calculation for illumination that have to use a single calculation for a single programmed textures not two to avoid the massive memory usage with 2 textures types,even if they are from old gen it wont be as efficient as 1 single programmed texture.
you could be right about this but PD is not stupid and probably they use a single texturing to avoid a complex memory administration and usage.
