Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

[Event]

I got a slap for cheering when Padme died (although I believe my precise words were "Well thank **** for that. The second most annoying character in Star Wars history has died. How long did it take to get rid of her?")

I was happy too, you're not alone.

If the Death Star is being built - and Anakin has become Vader - at the end of the film when Luke & Leia are infants, how come it takes 17+ years to finish, when the second Death Star takes just a few months?

Maybe they started building the other one when the first Death Star was still being built? Plus, the second time around probably wouldn't take as long as the first time.

(and Vader ages about 40 years by the time we next see his face)

There was probably significant scarring from the burning, and I'm sure the Dark Side doesn't do wonders for someone's apperance...

 

[Famine]

Maybe they started building the other one when the first Death Star was still being built? Plus, the second time around probably wouldn't take as long as the first time.

They were building a replacement one for a moveable space weapon which was impregnable, but ironed out all the design flaws WHILE the first one was being built?

Mind you, that's Lucas for you...

 

[Event]

They were building a replacement one for a moveable space weapon which was impregnable, but ironed out all the design flaws WHILE the first one was being built?

Mind you, that's Lucas for you...

Touché.

Also, in one of the old movies, Leia said she remembered her mother. Was she talking about Padme? or her guardian?

 

[Swift]

I've just done watching this.

Oh man.

I got a slap for cheering when Padme died (although I believe my precise words were "Well thank **** for that. The second most annoying character in Star Wars history has died. How long did it take to get rid of her?")

Good points: Umm. Some of the lightsabring was good.

Wookies!


Bad points: Now, I may be suffering from memory loss with the first (last) three films, but has Lucas suddenly acquired Attention Deficit Disorder? Every 30 seconds there's an artful fade into another scene. Including in the middle of fights (many times) and a chase scene. Way to build drama, Lucas!

What happened with Windu/Palpatine/Anakin was about as believable - in terms of dialogue and plot progression - as someone claiming to see the face of Boss Hogg in their ice cream. My girlfriend thought she'd fallen asleep for a second and missed a bit (her usual excuse).

General Grievous. McGuffin extraordinaire (if you don't know what a McGuffin is, look it up).

If the Death Star is being built - and Anakin has become Vader - at the end of the film when Luke & Leia are infants, how come it takes 17+ years to finish (and Vader ages about 40 years by the time we next see his face), when the second Death Star takes just a few months?

Why was (person fighting Palpatine) perpetually surprised by the fact he was using energy/lightning rather than his lightsabre?

How come Anakin couldn't sense twins?

Where did Padme's "bump" suddenly appear from, between landing on Mostafar and leaving again?

And the Anakin/Padme dialogue STANK, even by Star Wars standards. I've seen more convincing love inside a Baci.

Famine, for one of the few times we see eye to eye

Edit:
I'm not quite sure of the time for the death star. I know in Episode IV they "tested" the main gun. But who knows how long it took to actually builde the death star.

Also, have you ever noticedt that it was exactly the same sequence used in Episode IV as Episode VI to fire the death star?

 

[smellysocks12]

I didn't read this topic, but I watched the movie yesterday and it was definitely a worthy ending of this trilogy.

 

[VIPFREAK]

 

[///M-Spec]

Bad points: Now, I may be suffering from memory loss with the first (last) three films, but has Lucas suddenly acquired Attention Deficit Disorder? Every 30 seconds there's an artful fade into another scene. Including in the middle of fights (many times) and a chase scene. Way to build drama, Lucas!

Every single lightsaber fight in every Star Wars film is intercut with action in another locale. Even in the first one with Vader/Kenobi. Personally, I think it does add dramtic tension as many other films and novels do as well.

What happened with Windu/Palpatine/Anakin was about as believable - in terms of dialogue and plot progression - as someone claiming to see the face of Boss Hogg in their ice cream. My girlfriend thought she'd fallen asleep for a second and missed a bit (her usual excuse).

I don't know how any story writer can make this scene any MORE believable than it is, actually. Especially if you've seen I & II.

1- The most tramatic event in Anakin's life is when his mother dies and he arrived too late to do anything about it but watch.

2- He now faces the prospect of the same thing happening to his wife and possibly unborn child.

3- His faith in the Jedi order has been deeply shaken. (being asked to spy, Palps' speech about the moral ambiguity of the order, etc..)

4- He is prone to making aggressive snap judgements, sometimes for the worse rather than the better. (attacking Dooku alone in II, beheading him when they meet again...)

5- One of the single most consistant aspects of his character is that he always comes to the aid of those who needed his help. (risks his life in pod race, runs to his mother on Tatooine, to save Obi-Wan on Geonosis, etc..) And Palatine did play the helpless victim fairly well. This impluse to help the helpless is what snaps him into action in ROTJ when it is his son's turn to be helpless. --a mirror image of this scene.

6- Palpatine has already offered to make sure 1 and 2 doesn't happen again.

7- The person he betrays in this scene has spent his entire time in the movie making Anakin his little Jedi beyotch. ("Take a seat, young Skywalker", "You are on the council, but we do not grant you the rank of Master", "I don't trust him", etc.) In fact, Windu was the one who didn't want him to be trained in the first place.

Not to mention that it is clear, to me at any rate, that when he takes the name Vader in the scene he has not completely turned, only forced to choose the option that keeps 1 and 2 from occuring. And his line "thank you, my master" is less than geniue. I think the scene is quite believable.

General Grievous. McGuffin extraordinaire (if you don't know what a McGuffin is, look it up).

No arguments there. Well, maybe one.

Consider that Palps engineered the entire Grievous mission in order to seperate Anakin from the only person that could prevent his turn, it makes the diversion an internal plot mechanic, rather than a lazy excuse on the writer's part.

In fact, as an audience, it is easy to assume Sidious also ordered the invasion of Kashyyyk as well, just to make sure that Yoda and Kenobi was far away from his office when he lets the cat of the bag.

So there... less McGuffiny.

If the Death Star is being built - and Anakin has become Vader - at the end of the film when Luke & Leia are infants, how come it takes 17+ years to finish (and Vader ages about 40 years by the time we next see his face), when the second Death Star takes just a few months?

The second Death Star was ordered into secret construction shortly after the first was destroyed. According to The Ultimate Star Wars Timeline (not an official source), 4 years pass between New Hope and Jedi.

So given that the Death Star II is still not complete by movie's end (only armed and operational) and that the very first scene in ROTJ involves Vader arriving on Death Star II to "find new ways to motivate" the construction crew to "do the impossible", I don't think the timeline defies that much logic.

If you've ever built anything complex.... and I bet you have, Famine, you know it always takes much less time the second time around.

Why was (person fighting Palpatine) perpetually surprised by the fact he was using energy/lightning rather than his lightsabre?

Legitimate gripe. Don't know.

How come Anakin couldn't sense twins?

Yep. Plot hole. Apparently people in the Star Wars universe can travel at lightspeed, but haven't yet invented the ultrasound machine. But hey, if you can accept the notion of a small portable object that makes a sword out of light by BENDING IT, then I think you can over look this little shortcoming, eh?

Where did Padme's "bump" suddenly appear from, between landing on Mostafar and leaving again?

I didn't notice any bump discrepancies. I doubt the costume dept. let something that obvious slip. Maybe it was the camera angle of certain shots.


M

 

[Saleen Man]

I saw this on Sunday night. I thought it was a great movie, I loved watching Anakin turn to the dark side and become Darth Vader. I thought it was great. I wish there would've been more of General Grievous, he's supposed to be this Jedi hunting/killing machine, and he gets taken out by the first one he fights.
I also thought it had a very weak ending, it seemed that they just had to find a way to tie up all the loose ends. Overall, I thought it was a great movie, and in my opinion the best out of the six, probably just because the special effects are so much better though.

 

[Famine]

I don't know how any story writer can make this scene any MORE believable than it is, actually. Especially if you've seen I & II.

It would have been marginally more believable had pigs been flying past with the face of the Madonna in the sky.

He goes from "You is bad man! Me tell on you!" to "What have I done?" to "I'm YOUR biznitch now master..." in the blink of an eye. In many ways the "birth" of Vader in Attack of the Clones was a much more significant and well-written event.

The decision he makes to defend the Senator is a snap decision, yes. But immediately after that he hauls off and slaughters children. He's traumatised by what he's just done, yes. But his solution is to kill kids? That's SOME snap decision. He starts off as just an angry, confused young man and 20 minutes later he's a serial homicide maniac.

There should have been a short interim of a couple of months of mind-twisting and schooling in the dark side - with investigations into the Senator's involvement in the death of a Jedi (after all, only one Jedi other than Anakin knew about the Senator being a Sith and he's not about to tell anyone else) BEFORE Anakin goes all mediaeval on those sprogs. But they couldn't have done that thanks to the cul-de-sac Lucas had worked himself into.

The scene at Mostafar with Padme was MUCH more compelling and, dare I say it, likely. Had that happened BEFORE he went to the Temple, I'd have believed it more.

If you've ever built anything complex.... and I bet you have, Famine, you know it always takes much less time the second time around.

Were the same thousands of workmen building the second one?

Event makes a good point - how can Leia remember her mother? Amongst other things, how does she get to be PRINCESS Leia, when her "father" as far as she knows, is merely a senator? Her mother WAS a queen, but she was hidden from her father so he never knew of her existence, so she wouldn't have been aware of this fact to get her status...

 

[Mark T]

=Famine The decision he makes to defend the Senator is a snap decision, yes. But immediately after that he hauls off and slaughters children. He's traumatised by what he's just done, yes. But his solution is to kill kids? That's SOME snap decision. He starts off as just an angry, confused young man and 20 minutes later he's a serial homicide maniac.

Star Wars fans would argue that he was completely consumed by the Dark Side and for the survival of his Wife, he would do anything.

 

[Omnis]

i think it has something to do with Mr. organa being the head of the rebel alliance, and possibly he and his wife's status on their home planet.

 

[///M-Spec]

It would have been marginally more believable had pigs been flying past with the face of the Madonna in the sky.

Would you settle for little green frog aliens that can fly (or at least, jump absurdedly high) and move things around with his mind?

He goes from "You is bad man! Me tell on you!" to "What have I done?" to "I'm YOUR biznitch now master..." in the blink of an eye. In many ways the "birth" of Vader in Attack of the Clones was a much more significant and well-written event.

The decision he makes to defend the Senator is a snap decision, yes. But immediately after that he hauls off and slaughters children. He's traumatised by what he's just done, yes. But his solution is to kill kids? That's SOME snap decision. He starts off as just an angry, confused young man and 20 minutes later he's a serial homicide maniac.

There should have been a short interim of a couple of months of mind-twisting and schooling in the dark side - with investigations into the Senator's involvement in the death of a Jedi (after all, only one Jedi other than Anakin knew about the Senator being a Sith and he's not about to tell anyone else) BEFORE Anakin goes all mediaeval on those sprogs. But they couldn't have done that thanks to the cul-de-sac Lucas had worked himself into.

The way I see it, he had no desire to pledge allegience to Sidious and attack the Jedi temple. That is what makes it believeable.

The first clue is his sarcasm when he says "thank you, my master." He doesn't WANT to be Sidious' beyotchboy. He hates the idea. But he does it to get what he wants: to save Padme. The story drives this point home at least twice.

This very nicely sets up the parasitic nature of the Sith. Sidious uses Vader to get what he wants, Vader uses Sidious to get what he wants. It is not an alliance, but the opposite.

Qui-gon explained in Ep I that the force is created from life forms living for mutual benefit. Symbiosis. Of course, the dark side of this force is the opposite of this. Two life forms using each other for their own needs without regard for the survival of the other.

I think it's pretty well done. And surprisingly deep.

Of course the second clue is the crying scene on Mustafar. As I posted earlier (don't know if you read it), this scene shows that he had remorse for what he had done. It is also pivotal, as he then turns away from his conscience and ignores his sins and reaps the benefits of his wrong doing.

His willingness to kill children is a tough pill to swallow, I admit. I wouldn't believe it for a second if he hadn't already done it in Ep II. But these are not exactly defenseless kids. They are Jedi in training. They have lightsabers. If they were let go the "Galaxy would be caught in an endless civil war." Anakin knew this.

Were the same thousands of workmen building the second one?

Would you really have preferred a scene to explain it? An awkward, silly scene where young Tarkin says "we expect to be done in about 17 years, but if we ever need to build another, we can do it in a third of the time."

I think we can assume this. After all, it would make sense the same contractors were used. It is a corrupt, evil Empire, right? Just think of no bid contracts awarded to friends of Palpatine.... (*cough*...Halliburton)

Event makes a good point - how can Leia remember her mother? Amongst other things, how does she get to be PRINCESS Leia, when her "father" as far as she knows, is merely a senator? Her mother WAS a queen, but she was hidden from her father so he never knew of her existence, so she wouldn't have been aware of this fact to get her status...

No idea why Leia remembers her mother and Luke doesn't. I agree it makes no sense. I was expecting Luke to be taken away by Obi-Wan almost immediately after birth, while the younger by 20 minutes Leia, being a surprise, was allowed to spend a little time with Padme before she dies.

As for her title, Ep I made it clear that the Queen Amidala was elected, and that the title is not hereditary. Perhaps we can assume "Princess" is what the Alderanians (or whatever) called their Senator. (that's what she was in the first Star Wars)

I hope you don't think I'm writting all this simply to be argumentative. I see true moments of brilliance in the story for this film and I would like other Star Wars fans to see the same. Even if there are moments of bad dialog (the painful but important "you are so beautiful" scene), the copious amounts of sheer goodness in this film far outweigh the bad.


M

 

[Famine]

Yes. The music at the end was good.

 

[Anakin]

i think it ties in amazingly well with the episode 4, anakin turns to the dark side for one reason, to help padme, when he realises she has dies "because" of his actions thats when the full on regret will kick in, and the "noooo!!" scene as well.

 

[Famine]

Oooh, don't remind me. It looked like he'd just cacked his pants.

 

[F1GTR]

Nooooooooooo!

 

[///M-Spec]

Yes. The music at the end was good.

COP OUT

Well, I didn't expect to change the minds of people who hated it. Rather, in debating the merits of the storyline, I have found more to enjoy. The Sith/Jedi, Parasitic/Symbiotic relationship was something I would have missed without discussions like this. So thanks for futhering my enjoyment of this film


M

 

[Swift]

COP OUT

Well, I didn't expect to change the minds of people who hated it. Rather, in debating the merits of the storyline, I have found more to enjoy. The Sith/Jedi, Parasitic/Symbiotic relationship was something I would have missed without discussions like this. So thanks for futhering my enjoyment of this film


M

Yeah, Tankspanker just commented on how ObiWan was able to talk with Luke right after he was killed in Episode IV. That was a skill that Yoda taught him and they talked about it right at the end of Episode III. So that was pretty cool.

 

[Famine]

Oh I didn't hate it. It was better than The Phantom Menace - but then again so is 2 hours of Fox News.

 

[Boundary Layer]

Yeah, Tankspanker just commented on how ObiWan was able to talk with Luke right after he was killed in Episode IV. That was a skill that Yoda taught him and they talked about it right at the end of Episode III. So that was pretty cool.

ya, well sorta. Yoda only mentions to ObiWan that Qui Gon Jin had discovered how to communicate from the dead. It was ObiWan's assignment/training while on Tatooine to communicate with Qui Gon and learn the skill for himself. Then he uses this however many decades later to talk to Luke during the destruction of the DeathStar, etc etc.

the writers kinda shoe-horned that in at the last minute to link the movies together (as with a good number other little things, like wiping c3p0's memory) but I guess it works....

don't get me wrong. Still enjoyed the film immensely. The writing, although a bit lame in some scenes, does do a decent job of answering some lingering questions in the series and makes the transition from epIII to epIV pretty seamless. This film kinda takes all of the punch out of the "Luke, I am your father" line though.

and i'm with others in agreeing that the time to build the second deathstar after the first is really wacked after this movie. Sure, things take less time the second time around - its called a learning curve. But anyone who has studied production systems or work analysis knows that a learning curve of 5%-10% (meaning the second time around takes only 5%-10% the time of the first) is extremely unrealistic.

 

[Duke]

I got a slap for cheering when Padme died (although I believe my precise words were "Well thank **** for that. The second most annoying character in Star Wars history has died. How long did it take to get rid of her?")

I kept it to myself, though nobody in my family likes her all that much either. But my reaction was precisely the same.

General Grievous. McGuffin extraordinaire (if you don't know what a McGuffin is, look it up).

It took me something like 40 minutes to figure out why a robot was coughing.

If the Death Star is being built - and Anakin has become Vader - at the end of the film when Luke & Leia are infants, how come it takes 17+ years to finish (and Vader ages about 40 years by the time we next see his face), when the second Death Star takes just a few months?

This one I have a reasonable answer for: engineering. Obviously the first Death Star was the prototype. It's always faster to build a copy from the as-built plans than it is to engineer it in the first place.

In general I was pleasantly surprised in the transition of design aesthetic in this movie. The machines did mostly fit as first steps from the "really sooper cool futuristic" look of I/II to the more realistic, prosaic look of IV-VI. I just wish there was even a line of explanation as to why things were shifting.

And the Anakin/Padme dialogue STANK, even by Star Wars standards. I've seen more convincing love inside a Baci.

See my comment about "as much chemistry as wet cat litter" above.

 

[Famine]

Actually, why WAS the robot - capable of surviving in a vacuum, I might add - coughing?

 

[Boundary Layer]

This one I have a reasonable answer for: engineering. Obviously the first Death Star was the prototype. It's always faster to build a copy from the as-built plans than it is to engineer it in the first place.

see my above reply^^^
a 60% curve is about the greatest time and resource improvement that can be realistically expected (of course, this is in our galaxy, maybe the Star Wars galaxy operates differently ). Generally designs are finished before anything is ever assembled in any project... so I assume the plans for the deathstar were complete before the end of episode 3. 15+ years of fiddling with a prototype is a bit excessive in my mind considering the pace at which the second deathstar is completed....

In general I was pleasantly surprised in the transition of design aesthetic in this movie. The machines did mostly fit as first steps from the "really sooper cool futuristic" look of I/II to the more realistic, prosaic look of IV-VI. I just wish there was even a line of explanation as to why things were shifting.

i'm in the same boat here. The controls on the cruiser with the emperor and vader at the end of ep3 closely resembles the star destroyers in eps4-6. But why the step back from holographic displays and touch screens to prehistoric neon switches and flashing buttons?

 

[Duke]

Actually, why WAS the robot - capable of surviving in a vacuum, I might add - coughing?

Because it was actually the head and cardiopulmonary system of some animal species, in a mostly prosthetic suit. Remember the final duel where Obi-wan pries open the chest plate and gets a glimpse of some little organs hanging there? That's how he knew where to strike.

That doesn't explain the 'breathing in hard vacuum' thing, though maybe there was some on-board oxygen supply. Decompression wouldn't get him in a few seconds if he had some air to breathe.

But only an idiot puts a 'door open' switch on the outside of a spaceship hatch with no airlock. The same kind of idiot that would leave it unlocked if he did.

 

[Anderton Prime]

i'm in the same boat here. The controls on the cruiser with the emperor and vader at the end of ep3 closely resembles the star destroyers in eps4-6. But why the step back from holographic displays and touch screens to prehistoric neon switches and flashing buttons?

I read somewhere that the reason for the apparent degradation in the quality of the ships was due to the Clone Wars themselves; apparently, they destroyed half the galaxy and thousands of ships. I know it's not explained in the movie this way, but that's how I understand it.

 

[TheCracker]

Because it was actually the head and cardiopulmonary system of some animal species, in a mostly prosthetic suit. Remember the final duel where Obi-wan pries open the chest plate and gets a glimpse of some little organs hanging there? That's how he knew where to strike.

That doesn't explain the 'breathing in hard vacuum' thing, though maybe there was some on-board oxygen supply. Decompression wouldn't get him in a few seconds if he had some air to breathe.

The battle took place within the atmosphere of Corascant, thats why we had flames. Pressure would still be low enough to suck-out windows etc.

As for the Death Star, i think it was pretty lame to see it in its early stages at the end of the film, its fair enough if it takes 17 years to build, but the second one was operational, if not completely finished after only 4 years! - and the second one was much, much larger than the original.

Who built the first one - British Leyland during the 1970's?

 

[TheCracker]

The dialogue in all the Star Wars movies has always been unconvincing, but that's not the issue. The original cast managed to deliver the lines with beleivability anyway.

Misted by the dark-side of time your mind has become, just as poorly delivered were the original cast's lines.

Poor at directing Lucas is.

 

[Famine]

*runs to the toilet giggling*

My favourite line was:

"Go I will. Good relations with the Wookies I have."

Maybe I shouldn't have laughed out loud though.

 

[///M-Spec]

In general I was pleasantly surprised in the transition of design aesthetic in this movie. The machines did mostly fit as first steps from the "really sooper cool futuristic" look of I/II to the more realistic, prosaic look of IV-VI. I just wish there was even a line of explanation as to why things were shifting.

I read an interview with Doug Chiang and George Lucas where they explained that the change from the "Pretty" look (yes, that's what they called it) to the "Used Universe" look was to show the effects of war and imperial rule.

The classic beauty of the old Republic was swept away as the functional, militaristic simplicity of the Empire replaced it.

They don't talk about it in the movies, but Lucas and Chiang do talk about this transition and it is also meant as a bit of "visual storytelling".


M

 

[Swift]

Misted by the dark-side of time your mind has become, just as poorly delivered were the original cast's lines.

Poor at directing Lucas is.

Considering Lucas didn't direct V and VI I'd say that's not an accurate statment.

BTW, I very much agree that Lucas can't direct. Just wanted to make sure the info was clear.

The classic beauty of the old Republic was swept away as the functional, militaristic simplicity of the Empire replaced it.

They don't talk about it in the movies, but Lucas and Chiang do talk about this transition and it is also meant as a bit of "visual storytelling".

Hmm..what I noticed at the end of the movie was that the empirial military of the command ship was all decked out in new uniforms and there wasn't a droid in sight. Very quick change. Considering Luke and Leah were still infants, I haven't a clue how much time passed.

That brings me to the biggest whole in the movie. The time of Padme's pregnancy. I mean, was she about ready to pop when she told Anakin? Or do people from Naboo only need a few weeks to have a child?