The 2012 Driver transfer discussion/speculation thread

[prisonermonkeys]

Oh I'm sorry, you consider the HRT car an F1 car?

The FIA does. The teams and drivers do. In fact, the ony people who don't consider the F110 to be a Formula 1 car are the people who are trying to make out that Bruno Senna was better than his results suggest.

 

[MagpieRacer]

But GP2 cars could lap faster than it.

Senna is as good as Petrov, if Petrov was that good he would still have a seat in Renault, admittedly so would Senna but he never had a full time race seat anyway.

 

[RTSolvalou]

If Renault were good they'd still have Petrov in the seat.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

But GP2 cars could lap faster than it.

I seem to recall reading that the only time the GP2 cars were faster than the Hispania F110 was at Monaco.

if Petrov was that good he would still have a seat in Renault

There were other factors that influenced that seat. Eric Boullier said that the decision on whether or not Petrov would race for them was entirely up to Petrov. However, he also said that Robert Kubica would step into a seat with the team if and when he is feeling better. Why on earth would Petrov sign up for a season, knowing full well that he could be dropped at a moment's notice because Robert Kubica was feeling better? Romain Grosjean might have taken up the offer of the seat, but he was trying to break into Formula 1. Saying no was a luxury he could not afford. Petrov, on the other hand, already had two years' experience and so could afford to shop around for another seat.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Guys obviously Senna had to beat Petrov, especially when Kers failed him. I'd say the transmission too, but that was Senna's fault.

In other sort of new, it seems that Rubens is supposedly unemployed. At least rumor has it

 

[Tom]

MildAshers, I don't think Ferrari will drop Massa before his time simply because they made a big song and dance over building themselves around him after his accident.

I think that, of all the teams, I'd like to see him in Marussia; he'd certainly bring in a lot of sponsors. Of the two Marussia drivers, I think he's most likely take the place of Charles Pic. Grosjean and Vergne should be in Formula 1, but I have concerns about Pic's end-of-season collapse in GP2. But I still don't think Petrov will go there. It's a bit of a minefield getting either driver out of their seat - unless Petrov's money was used to refund Pic.

I hate to say it, but a Reserve Driver Role seems most likely at the moment.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

With $15 million to his name?

Not likely. He could easily find a place at Williams, HRT, or at any team - like Caterham - where a seat could potentially be bought out.

 

[Tom]

With $15 million to his name?

Not likely. He could easily find a place at Williams, HRT, or at any team - like Caterham - where a seat could potentially be bought out.

True, but would Petrov go to a backmarker team? I bet he feels that he deserves a seat in a mid-field team. I know Williams are known as a mid-field team but after their performances this season, I've got my doubts.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

True, but would Petrov go to a backmarker team? I bet he feels that he deserves a seat in a mid-field team.

He may feel that way, but if he wants to stay in the sport, he'll take what's on offer. The gap between the backmarkers and the midfield is closing; I expect Caterham to fight for points in 2012. But the other two are getting closer and closer - the gap between Marussia/HRT and Caterham was about the same as it was last year. And both Marussia and HRT are undergoing restructurings that will hopefully make them more competitive; Marussia abandoned Virgin's CFD-only approach in June and were the first team to start concentrating on their 2012 car full-time, while HRT are consolidating their team into one factory.

I know Williams are known as a mid-field team but after their performances this season, I've got my doubts.

Well, their rhetoric has changed, which I think is a good sign. For the past few years, it's been "We're pursuing an aggressive design philosophy", but now it's "We had a good hard look at what we did wrong, and we think we know how to fix it".

 

[Tom]

Well, their rhetoric has changed, which I think is a good sign. For the past few years, it's been "We're pursuing an aggressive design philosophy", but now it's "We had a good hard look at what we did wrong, and we think we know how to fix it".

Indeed it is. If they're going for a conservative approach to designing their car for 2012, then they could be back consistently fighting for points. Which could attract Petrov for 2012.

 

[F1 fan]

I expect Marussia to be close to a point or two this season. They may not have the resources, but they have Pat Symonds.

 

[The Outlaw]

The FIA does. The teams and drivers do. In fact, the ony people who don't consider the F110 to be a Formula 1 car are the people who are trying to make out that Bruno Senna was better than his results suggest.

It's a much more complicated matter than that though, and sadly, you are intelligent enough to likely know better. Instead you conveniently choose to look at things at face value to help suit your side of the argument. On top of the fact that Bruno had next to no legitimate wheel to wheel racing experience in 2010 (which was a bit of his downfall this year it seemed), while flubbing around at the back of the pack in the HRT, Bruno also didn't have much of any experience with the new tires, DRS, KERS, before he was thrown into the seat mid season, yet you seem to ignore this - while if you bring up someone like Kimi Raikkonen (someone you also have a strong dislike for), then it turns into a case of all of these being good reasons as to why he might fail next year, or at least take some time to get up to speed (you were the one making such a big deal of this). All it is, is just another example of your selective reasoning/double standards, mostly brought about due to your insecurity of being intolerant to a driver that you feel is maybe slightly over rated, over hyped, or too popular.

Also, I don't think people are so much over rating Bruno's speed in qualy, but rather highlighting his potential given a very tough situation he faced. I honestly can't imagine Petrov jumping into such a seat given Bruno's lack of prior experience in the car and doing much better. And when you look at a rather inexperienced driver like Senna or even Petrov, you can't just look at things at face value and how the results read...you must also consider the raw potential they had given their lack of experience, and the strong possibility that they could get better (like Petrov did this year).

 

[Seismica]

Petrov had just half a season more experience than Senna when Senna stepped into the car. It's not like we're talking about the difference between Senna and Nick Heidfeld.

Experience means little when you jump into a new car, see Fisichella in 2009. Petrov had more experience in the Renault than Senna. As somebody else mentioned, Petrov should have had the measure of Senna as he was used to the car's unique characteristics from the front facing exhaust.

 

[tibiquera]

Regarding Petrov, the big question is: if Kubica raced this season, would he outclass Petrov like he did in 2010, or would it be a closer call?

To answer that question we have to evaluate the true potential of Renault. And a good evaluation would be considering Senna's 7th place in Spa. Logic would indicate that if Senna could qualify 7th, then Kubica would at least do the same in the same car, with the difference that he would keep the pace throughout the race. So that is good indication to me that Petrov was not driving the car to its full potential.

And to back my theory, the fact Renault considered Heidfeld's performance subpar, even though he beat Petrov on the points, would indicate Renault would also think their car is capable of more than what Petrov did.

 

[F1 fan]

The thing people tend to forget is that Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2 out of their full 3 seasons together as teammates. I hear a lot of people saying things like "this was meant to be Kubica's year" and "He would have driven the wheels off the thing" but face it, that car was never going to win a race, let alone a championship.

 

[The Outlaw]

The thing people tend to forget is that Heidfeld beat Kubica in 2 out of their full 3 seasons together as teammates. I hear a lot of people saying things like "this was meant to be Kubica's year" and "He would have driven the wheels off the thing" but face it, that car was never going to win a race, let alone a championship.

Who's to say really. The R31 was certainly far from being a championship contender, but early in the season (when both Petrov & Heidfeld managed a podium) the car was quite strong, and it wouldn't have been too far fetched to have expected a top level driver to have possibly racked up a win with it.

 

[F1 fan]

Who's to say really. The R31 was was certainly far from being a championship contender, but early in the season (when both Petrov & Heidfeld managed a podium) the car was quite strong, and it wouldn't have been too far fetched to have expected a top level driver to have possibly racked up a win with it.

It would have been extremely far fetched unless it was a race of attrition or in unusual circumstances. Perhaps Kubica may have been able to catch up with Hamilton at Albert Park (as his plank was riding along the ground), but it's a little far fetched to believe it could have caught and passed Vettel.

It was a decent car early on, but I think Petrov and Heidfeld got the maximum out of it.

 

[The Outlaw]

Never say never, is all I'm saying. I'm sure no one expected Vettel to win a race in the Toro Rosso either

 

[F1 fan]

Never say never, is all I'm saying. I'm sure no one expected Vettel to win a race in the Toro Rosso either

That's when we go back to those extreme circumstances. Another I had in mind was Markus Winkelhock leading his one and only race in a spyker. At one point, he was almost two minutes ahead of Massa in second place.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Regarding Petrov, the big question is: if Kubica raced this season, would he outclass Petrov like he did in 2010, or would it be a closer call?

It would have been closer. Petrov clearly stepped up his game this year. I think he had maybe two crashes - Malaysia and Korea - that were his fault. Last year, he was averaging about two crashes per weekend.

And to back my theory, the fact Renault considered Heidfeld's performance subpar, even though he beat Petrov on the points, would indicate Renault would also think their car is capable of more than what Petrov did.

Heidfeld was sacked for financial reasons. Genii had borrowed heavily from Vladirmir Antonov, a Russian banker based in Lithuania, and were struggling to pay off the debt because although Lotus Cars had invested in the team, the Malaysian government wasn't happy that taxpayer money was being used to pay off the loan on Antonov, and so they suspended the payments. Renault was caught in the lurch, and needing money quickly, they were forced to let one of their drivers go. They chose Nick Heidfeld because they felt he had not led the team as they expected he would.

 

[tibiquera]

I don't my point was clearly understood. What I meant to say was: if Senna (who as much as I think deserves another chance is definitely no Kubica) was able to get in the car for pretty much the first time in a Friday and qualify it in 7th on Saturday in the most technical track of the season, then what would Kubica have done with the same car? It makes me think the car was capable of fighting with the Mercedes cars, but it was nowhere near because their drivers weren't good enough.

Which is why I dislike Petrov and I'm happy to see him gone. I can even understand his first year being poor, but in formula 1 if you get a seat in one of the top teams, you have to deliver the results quickly, and if 2 years aren't enough, then you're just not good enough.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You're assuming that the gap between Kubica and Petrov would have been the same this year as it was last year. Based on his performances in Australia and Canada in particular, Petrov demonstrated that this was not the case.

Anyway, back to the actual topic at hand: the silly season. In an interview with a Belgian radio station last night, Jerome d'Ambrosio stated that there might be as many as four seats available on the grid - the second Williams, the second HRT, Trulli's seat at Caterham and an unknown fourth seat that might become available.

Giedo van der Garde also reckons that he was offered a seat at Marussia (which ultiamtely went to Charles Pic), but turned it down, and he is now working on a Williams drive. Popular consensus holds that he is unlikely to land there, and so HRT is his best bet.

And Narain Kathikeyan thinks he can find a seat in 2012.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Who's to say really. The R31 was certainly far from being a championship contender, but early in the season (when both Petrov & Heidfeld managed a podium) the car was quite strong, and it wouldn't have been too far fetched to have expected a top level driver to have possibly racked up a win with it.

The first two races it was good it fell off the map with the updates, and Renault have claimed this by stating how the car wasn't very update friendly and not something they really could build upon during the year. I doubt even Kubica could have made a win out of it, especially when you look at how fast the RB7 was. After Turkey we see a steady drop off of the car especially at street circuits, and during times when new updates are introduced by the teams. Kubica is an amazing driver but when a car like the RB7 comes around a win is doubtful, then you add Vettel and it becomes more of a lost cause. I only see the car being fast in the first two to three races for sure, after that it was a horrible car for the team that was using it.

 

[RTSolvalou]

I think overall, Kubica would've ended up with about the same points/a few more than Petrov, the difference being, I think in some of the races he would've finished a few places ahead of Petrov, and in some, a few behind or dead even. Remember that usually all the drivers suffer a DNF or two per season.
From memory, Heidfeld's car had mechanical issues in Melbourne, which would of course have been suffered by Kubica instead, but if the car was fine, I agree he would've got second after spanking the car during qualifying.

It will be sad for the sport if Kubica doesn't fully recover, his driving is something to behold.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

According to Peter Windsor, Ferrari are "pushing very hard" to place Jules Bianchi somewhere. Dimitris Papadopoulos seem to think Kobayashi could go to Williams to make way for Bianchi. He also talked about how "some closed cases might reopen", and is now saying that Kobayashi is the "closed case" was was referring to. He also thinks that Ferrari have recruited Gabriele Tredozi from Toro Rosso to aid Robert Kubica during his rumoured Ferrari test. Others (though I don't really know who they are) have noted that Timo Gans - Nico Hulkenberg's PR guy - was following Bianchi around yesterday, suggesting that Bianchi could go to Force India (probably taking over Hulkenberg's Friday duties).

 

[Tom]

I hate the way everybody is saying that Bruno will be the next Ayrton. Remeber Christian Fittipaldi? He is Emerson's Nephew, who won 2 World Championships. Christian finished no higher than 4th in his entire GP Career and scored a total of 12 points. Just because they had a family member who was tremendously sucessful in F1, does not mean that they will follow in their footsteps.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Di Montezemolo also reiterated his belief that 2012 will see Felipe Massa back to his best form after two years of being comprehensively beaten by team-mate Fernando Alonso.

"Great things are also expected from our drivers for next season," said di Montezemolo. "Felipe knows next year is very important for him, but it is up to us to give him a competitive car. If we manage it, then I am sure we will rediscover the Felipe who delivered so much and who could be quicker than Michael [Schumacher] and Kimi [Raikkonen].

"Fernando has had an amazing season, even though he did not have a competitive car and he made us all happy at Silverstone, with an emblematic victory, given it came at the same circuit and in the same month in which, sixty years ago, Ferrari took its first ever Formula 1 win.

"What I like about our drivers is their ability to work with the team: I knew that about Felipe and it was a pleasant surprise to find out the same applied to Fernando. I don't like drivers who turn up at the track with their briefcase and do not share in the daily life of the team: they are not Ferrari people."

I guess this should end any and all speculation about Massa.

 

[takatasan]

2012 will probably be massa's last at ferrari,especially if kubica is open in 2013 ferrari will snatch him

 

[csmeteora9]

2012 will probably be massa's last at ferrari,especially if kubica is open in 2013 ferrari will snatch him

Perhaps, if Kubica returns during the 2012 season and proves to be as quick as before. However if Robert fails to make a comeback during the course of the season, do you really expect Ferrari to take such a gamble? It is far from certain that after his accident that he'll still live up to the potential we believe he has.

 

[takatasan]

Perhaps, if Kubica returns during the 2012 season and proves to be as quick as before. However if Robert fails to make a comeback during the course of the season, do you really expect Ferrari to take such a gamble? It is far from certain that after his accident that he'll still live up to the potential we believe he has.

Yes I agree kubica must show that he is still capable and that he can fufill his potential