The 2012 Driver transfer discussion/speculation thread

[Tired Tyres]

Except that Chandhok finished higher up in the results than Senna 7 times to 2 when they raced together in the same team last year.

I can't think of a more overrated driver than Bruno Senna in the entire history of Formula 1.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Bruno Senna was great, right up until he had his first F1 race, the year out of single seaters didn't help him, if Brawn had gone for Senna instead of Barrichello I reckon we would all be saying Senna is great (like Hamilton who was given the best car) but he lost all the momentum of his career, another year in GP2 would've been best for him, now his career is pretty much over as far as F1 goes, kind of like Piquet (somebody who I still think is a talented driver).

 

[Seismica]

For a driver to keep their skill they ideally need to be racing week in week out. Bruno has all the capacity to be a great driver, but is not able to hone his abilities when he's not in a car. We see what happens when a driver misses FP1, they are behind for the rest of the weekend. He has the sponsorship behind him, i'm surprised he didn't get a seat at Williams or Sauber last year, his agent must be a bit crap. The HRT he drove in 2010 was slower than the GP2 cars he drove, it was almost un-driveable.

I even have my doubts that Kubica will be able to maintain the exceptional driving he did before his crash, it would be a great shame if he doesn't as he was probably the best driver on the grid. We saw what happened with Massa, he was keeping up/beating his teammate Raikkonen before the crash and it's taken him well over a year to return to decent form, and only because Ferrari had faith in him. Sure he was never a special talent (By F1 standards anyway, obviously you have to be talented to get into F1), but he was a much better driver than he was last season for example. If Kubica returns to form I doubt they're going to oust Petrov as not only is he performing, he brings a lot of sponsorship, as the only Russian driver in F1. Senna should ideally be chasing seats at the likes of Williams, Sauber and Team Lotus.

 

[Peter.]

Except that Chandhok finished higher up in the results than Senna 7 times to 2 when they raced together in the same team last year.

I can't think of a more overrated driver than Bruno Senna in the entire history of Formula 1.

Why? Because Senna retired a ton of times. He had a long string of retirements, while Chandhok didn't. My theorey was that Chandhok was getting F1 spec parts on his car and whatever relaibility upgrades first, before Senna, and it is somewhat true, he did at the start of the year get car upgrades before Senna, like carbon fibre suspension, F1 spec fuel tank.

 

[F1 fan]

Sure he was never a special talent (By F1 standards anyway, obviously you have to be talented to get into F1), but he was a much better driver than he was last season for example.

Not a special talent? Massa came very close to being world champion and in a world of "what if's" he could have been easily.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Update: This just in Kobiyashi and Perez will both be racing for Sauber next year so no team switch there. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/07/28/sauber-retain-kobayashi-perez-2012/

 

[Pezzarinho17]

Sauber have done well there, battling with Force India for the "best of the midfield" battle. This driver pairing may just put them onto Renault and Mercedes though...

 

[Ardius]

The car needs to be much faster in qualifying and Perez needs to be slightly faster in the races for them to challenge Mercedes and Renault though.
30 points to Renault is going to be difficult to beat before the season end.

If Perez joins Kobayashi in finishing in the top 10 every race, then its possible.

 

[Pezzarinho17]

The car needs to be much faster in qualifying and Perez needs to be slightly faster in the races for them to challenge Mercedes and Renault though.
30 points to Renault is going to be difficult to beat before the season end.

If Perez joins Kobayashi in finishing in the top 10 every race, then its possible.

I was thinking longer term than that. Their aim this year is to retain 6th in the constructors championship. Moving onto next year though, the stability of retaining 2 of the most exciting drivers in F1 could allow them to push the car in the right direction and therefore AT LEAST closer to Renault even if not ahead of them yet.

 

[Ardius]

Maybe, maybe not. Depends where the car is. Sauber have a lower budget than Renault and Mercedes though, so its not guaranteed. Its pretty irrelevant who the drivers are if they don't design a fast(er) car.
Its difficult if not impossible to predict where teams (especially midfield teams) will be next year, past success does not gurantee further future success. Sauber had an amazing 2008 that everyone predicted would lead to a championship-winning 2009. Brawn won the championship in 2009 only to fall back again in 2010 and even further in 2011. Williams had a great 2010 and now have a shocking 2011.

 

[Peter.]

I must say, it's bad luck, bad strategy and some mistakes which are why Maldonado hasn't scored any points yet, or why Rubens doesn't have more. As the season goes on, and Williams starts to stick on a lot more upgrades to the car, we'll see them more in touch with Force India and Sauber and distance themselves from Lotus and STR.

 

[Hollidog]

I think when Webber leaves Red Bull he may go to Lotus. Tony Fernandes sponsor Webbers GP3 team and as I understand it they have a pretty good relationship. Although Webber has said that he thinks running his own team is more exciting than driving himself.

 

[FullSpe3d98]

I don't see D'Ambrosio staying for next year. I suspect Glock will be wanting to move somewhere else since someone his talent deserves a better car, perhaps Mercedes if Shoemaker leaves?

 

[F1 fan]

Glock has apparently re-signed with virgin until the end of 2014.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Anthony Hamilton tells us what we're already thinking: Paul di Resta could move to Mercedes GP in 2012.

Glock has apparently re-signed with virgin until the end of 2014.

That's old news. It was announced at the Nurburgring.

 

[Ardius]

Di Resta to Mercedes in 2012 would certainly ask a lot of questions about where Sutil's career is going, it would seem as though Sutil has missed the boat and is forever stuck in the midfield.
Surely Hulkenburg would replace Di Resta? I wonder if there is a chance Barrichello could move to Force India if he does indeed leave Williams? Bit of a slap in the face of Hulk unless FI go for the 2010 Williams line-up!

 

[Peter.]

That'd be a shame, because Sutil is the one whose beating di Resta now. If Paul is going to Mercedes, it'd be a test driver role, as Schumacher said already that he plans to stick around for a while to build up the team, and Nico isn't going anywhere either.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Surely Hulkenburg would replace Di Resta?

That remains to be seen. Di Resta has been linked to Mercedes, but there is no word on who might replace him at Force India.

 

[Ardius]

That'd be a shame, because Sutil is the one whose beating di Resta now. If Paul is going to Mercedes, it'd be a test driver role, as Schumacher said already that he plans to stick around for a while to build up the team, and Nico isn't going anywhere either.

The thing is though that Sutil is expected to beat Di Resta because he has more experience. The fact Di Resta has managed so well against Sutil speaks volumes about Di Resta's potential talent than it does about Sutil's.

I think the top teams don't see Sutil as developing further than a possible race-winner and podium contender. But certainly not a championship contender. There is more possiblity and potential in Paul.

 

[Seismica]

If Schumacher is considering leaving I think he's making the wrong decision. The teaming has been expanding rapidly (Following the huge cuts the team made when Brawn kept the team alive after Honda's departure) and next year could be the year where he has a race winning car. Furthermore, he has been closer to his teammate Rosberg this year than he was last year, and even ahead in race pace most of the time, but has been let down due to starting behind midfield cars which are often slower in the race.

I like Di Resta and good on him if he gets the seat at Mercedes, he deserves it. But I think Schumacher will see out the rest of his contract, I believe it's down to the team if they want to replace their former prodige with their new one, and that may be unlikely. I'm confident that if Schumacher keeps putting in strong results he will stay.

I've never been a fan of Sutil myself. But he is a very solid driver. A forgotten driver. He rarely shows signs of brilliance but he keeps putting in those strong performances. He kind of reminds me of Rosberg. He's certainly fast over one lap, but for Di Resta to come in and match him either shows he's not up to scratch or Di Resta is brilliant.

 

[F1 fan]

That's old news. It was announced at the Nurburgring.

I know. I was responding to this.

I don't see D'Ambrosio staying for next year. I suspect Glock will be wanting to move somewhere else since someone his talent deserves a better car, perhaps Mercedes if Shoemaker leaves?

 

[Mike Rotch]

I've never been a fan of Sutil myself. But he is a very solid driver. A forgotten driver. He rarely shows signs of brilliance but he keeps putting in those strong performances. He kind of reminds me of Heidfeld. He's certainly fast over one lap, but for Di Resta to come in and match him either shows he's not up to scratch or Di Resta is brilliant.

Fixed

 

[Peter.]

The thing is though that Sutil is expected to beat Di Resta because he has more experience. The fact Di Resta has managed so well against Sutil speaks volumes about Di Resta's potential talent than it does about Sutil's.

I think the top teams don't see Sutil as developing further than a possible race-winner and podium contender. But certainly not a championship contender. There is more possiblity and potential in Paul.

Why is that? I'm sorry, but while experience might, I repeat, might, give you a bit of a headstart, it's still all down to skill in the end. Besides, Paul has years of experience already testing for FI. Sutil is beating Paul fair and square, and despite Paul managing to outqualify him for most of the first half of the season, Sutil now starting to claw back that deficit though, Sutil has quite a fair points advantage.

Paul has not proven to be a future championship contender as yet, it's all just the media and Franchitti talking. The BBC somehow manages to make the 10 point difference seem like he's getting the better of Adrian. He's not doing a bad job, I admit, but beating Sutil? No, just no. I still rate Adrian higher than Paul, though i've liked Sutil since day 1. Adrian has proven himself to be a consistent driver who will bring the points home, and he's quick. He's just one of those drivers who just aren't getting the opportunity they deserve to show their true potential.

 

[F1 fan]

He has had a bit of bad luck though. Not all of it was self inflicted.

 

[Peter.]

He has had a bit of bad luck though. Not all of it was self inflicted.

Who Paul? So has Adrian. They've both had their fair share of bad luck all season, but Sutil has drove better races this year so far in my opinion.

 

[F1 fan]

Who Paul? So has Adrian. They've both had their fair share of bad luck all season, but Sutil has drove better races this year so far in my opinion.

He also has far more experience. At least Paul hasn't made any been responsible for any facepalm moments yet. Adrian has been behind a few of those. And that's before you even think about the way he runs.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Paul has not proven to be a future championship contender as yet, it's all just the media and Franchitti talking.

You can't deny that he's the strongest rookie in the field though. He's currently tied with Sergio Perez for points. Teams like Mercedes don't need drivers to prove themselves as "future championship contenders". They took Nico Rosberg when Rosberg had not won a race yet, didn't they? Mercedes is being run by Ross Brawn, who is savvy enough to pick up quick drivers. After all, he's the one who orchestrated both Rubens Barrichello and Felipe Massa moving to Ferrari (he may have had a hand in getting Eddie Irvine into his seat as well), as well as picking up Rosberg. And Brawn isn't stupid enough to take di Resta simply because Norbert Haug tells him to. If di Resta gets into Mercedes, it will be because he's demonstrated his talent. He's just two points behind Alguersuari and four behind Buemi, so with eight races left in the season, he's got a very real chance of passing them.

I think you're just creating another one of your fantasies to argue against a driver move that you don't think is right. You are, after all, denying that Paul di Resta's manager knows what he's talking about.

He's just one of those drivers who just aren't getting the opportunity they deserve to show their true potential.

If a driver hasn't shown his full potential after four full years in the sport, he has no business being in Formula 1.

 

[Ardius]

Why is that? I'm sorry, but while experience might, I repeat, might, give you a bit of a headstart, it's still all down to skill in the end. Besides, Paul has years of experience already testing for FI. Sutil is beating Paul fair and square, and despite Paul managing to outqualify him for most of the first half of the season, Sutil now starting to claw back that deficit though, Sutil has quite a fair points advantage.

Paul has not proven to be a future championship contender as yet, it's all just the media and Franchitti talking. The BBC somehow manages to make the 10 point difference seem like he's getting the better of Adrian. He's not doing a bad job, I admit, but beating Sutil? No, just no. I still rate Adrian higher than Paul, though i've liked Sutil since day 1. Adrian has proven himself to be a consistent driver who will bring the points home, and he's quick. He's just one of those drivers who just aren't getting the opportunity they deserve to show their true potential.

Who said Di Resta has beaten Sutil? I said Di Resta has done well against Sutil - i.e. Sutil hasn't dominated him and hasn't always been ahead in qualifying and races. For a rookie this is impressive.

And no, Paul doesn't have "years of testing experience", he has 1 year of the odd Friday practice session from 2010. This is hardly like the 1990s or early 2000s when teams could give drivers unlimited testing time. Today is harder than any other era of F1 for a rookie to make an impression in their first season. For most drivers, the first season is all about building experience, learning from mistakes and showing at least some flashes or potential for speed. So if this season is merely about Paul learning and improving - surely this speaks volumes about what he can improve to? Sutil is not likely to improve much more, we know what he is capable of. We do not know what Di Resta is capable of once he has some experience behind him.

Hulkenburg was miles away from Barrichello in points, but I think most people will agree that he was fairly impressive in his rookie season, particularly towards the end where he was more consistent and very close to his teammate. However, Hulk was very rarely ahead of Barrichello in the races. Same goes with Perez and Kobayashi and Maldonado and Barrichello - the rookies are rarely ahead in the races as their mistakes and inconsistencey hurt them. Not true for Di Resta it seems.

You can't deny that he's the strongest rookie in the field though. He's currently tied with Sergio Perez for points. Teams like Mercedes don't need drivers to prove themselves as "future championship contenders". They took Nico Rosberg when Rosberg had not won a race yet, didn't they? Mercedes is being run by Ross Brawn, who is savvy enough to pick up quick drivers. After all, he's the one who orchestrated both Rubens Barrichello and Felipe Massa moving to Ferrari (he may have had a hand in getting Eddie Irvine into his seat as well), as well as picking up Rosberg. And Brawn isn't stupid enough to take di Resta simply because Norbert Haug tells him to. If di Resta gets into Mercedes, it will be because he's demonstrated his talent. He's just two points behind Alguersuari and four behind Buemi, so with eight races left in the season, he's got a very real chance of passing them.

I doubt as technical director that Ross Brawn had much of an input on Ferrari driver policy. Felipe Massa was brought in pretty obviously due to the Jean Todt connections (Massa's manager is Nicolas Todt). Jean Todt is the one who chose Schumacher, Irvine, Barrichello and Massa.
Brawn did choose Rosberg though, but now he is team principal, not technical director.

Ross doesn't strike me as a talent-scout. I'm pretty sure he would rely on the advice of others for his driver line-ups. He is certainly not a Giancarlo Minardi or Peter Sauber of the F1 world.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I doubt as technical director that Ross Brawn had much of an input on Ferrari driver policy.

He certainly had the ability to influence the line-up. After all, in 2009 he did say he regretted not looking closer at Jenson Button for a Ferrari seat. And as technical director, it makes sense that he could recommend drivers - after all, the team would want someone who can work with the technical department and provide feedback.

 

[Ardius]

The impression I got from the Ferrari years was that Ross was not the person to go to for driver decisions.
And I'm pretty sure Ross' quote about JB was more along the lines of "I hadn't realised how good he was and I wish we had considered him".

While Ross may have had a say on the driver choices, it is very unlikely he was solely responsible as you suggest. He is certainly not the master talent scout like you were suggesting, he wasn't running the Ferrari team, his job was the technical side.

I'm 100% certain Ross is unlikely to have chosen Irvine and Massa, Todt was at Ferrari in 1995 and Ross was still at Benetton. Ross didn't join Ferrari till the end of 1996 - when Irvine was already at Ferrari.
Massa is easy due to the Nicolas Todt links.