The 2012 Driver transfer discussion/speculation thread

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prisonermonkeys
When was the last time someone said "Yes. We took him for his money."?

I'm not saying money was the only factor in signing Senna, but it was probably the deciding factor.
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Although they could have not made comment at all and just said "he was the best choice for us".
I find it quite notable that both Renault and Williams have praised Senna's technical skills and potential. Now either thats genuine praise or PR spiel, but its notable that two different teams have said similar things about him.

Perhaps Bruno learnt a great deal from his time with Oreca as a certain M.Schumacher once did with Sauber. Though I'm not directly comparing their respective talents, just the parallel of taking technical and development skills from racing in sportscars.
 
prisonermonkeys
No, I'm saying that the "real" reason why Senna was not as good as Petrov is not so simple as one variable that, if changed, will suddenly see a dramatic turn of events.

Look at Vitaly Petrov as a prime example of this. At the end of 2010, a lot of people believed that he should not have been retained for 2011. But during the winter off season, he did a whole host of things: he moved from Valencia to somewhere near Enstone, he learned more English (and some of the team learned some Russian), he found a new engineer and a new trainer and his simulator programme was changed to focus on the circuits he knew best. When 2011 started, it was a completely different Vitaly Petrov who started the season.

So to say "it's this one thing" that makes Senna slow is a ridiculous concept. Giving him more winter testing time isn't going to change anything. Not that there is anything to be changed - I firmly believe we've seen everything that we're going to see from Bruno Senna. It would be a mistake for Williams to take him, a sign that they're more interested in a pay check than in turning themselves around. They need someone like Kobayashi, Alguersuari or maybe d'Ambrosio. They're settling for Senna.
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Hold on now. Pre-season testing is not one small thing. 7,500 kilometers per driver is a lot of time and distance that the drivers will use to master their new cars, and the new tyres, which play a major role in the results of a race. Bruno Senna drove the car for one day.

Pre-season testing is a big reason why Schumacher and Ferrari were almost untouchable for several years. Not having any pre season testing is a major setback for any team or driver. He would have been noticeably better off if he did have some pre-season testing to his name.

You also argue that Williams are settling for Senna. How so? They have said it themselves, that Williams evaluated all the potential drivers, and Senna came out on top. I understand that could always just be a mutual agreement between Senna and Williams, so as to not make both sides look bad for being and hiring a pay driver, but it sounds like a believable story.

You're one to talk about pay drivers, too. Petrov was, and is a pay driver, and will be for a while. Renault needed money at the end of 2009 from losing their title sponsor overnight as a result of Piquet-gate, and the manufacturer Renault selling out. In comes pay driver Petrov to save the day. Scores a fraction of points that his teammate did, and never looked like he was on his way out, at all. Why? Money. Petrov was there from money more than anything else. He has improved a lot since, but he started out as a pay driver, one which has proven his quantity now. Senna has yet to prove his quantity, and I already would rate him higher than d'ambrosio, at least. It's hard to see flashes of speed from the back of the pack, but as I've said before, Jerome wasn't so impressive to me.
 
Peter.
Hold on now. Pre-season testing is not one small thing. 7,500 kilometers per driver is a lot of time and distance that the drivers will use to master their new cars, and the new tyres, which play a major role in the results of a race. Bruno Senna drove the car for one day.
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How, exactly, will pre-season testing address Senna's problems? Looking at his races, his biggest issues are his tendency to collapse under pressure and his inability to convert qualifying position into race results. These are not issues that are simply going to be fixed by driving the car over the winter.

Peter.
You also argue that Williams are settling for Senna. How so? They have said it themselves, that Williams evaluated all the potential drivers, and Senna came out on top.
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How are they settling for Senna? Because they wanted Kimi Raikkonen.
 
prisonermonkeys
How, exactly, will pre-season testing address Senna's problems? Looking at his races, his biggest issues are his tendency to collapse under pressure and his inability to convert qualifying position into race results. These are not issues that are simply going to be fixed by driving the car over the winter.


How are they settling for Senna? Because they wanted Kimi Raikkonen.
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Didn't you say during my Trulli comment that this was mainly to blame due to the car and not Petrov or Senna.
 
prisonermonkeys
Well, I was reading RodrigoDLL's comments that "a renowned economy journalist announced this on a Brazilian radio show" meant that the story is more credible because he put his name to it. Which is a reasonable conclusion to make; I would be more willing to believe something that Jon Noble or Keith Collantine or Adam Cooper reports, as opposed to something printed by Christian Sylt or Joe Saward or Antonio Lobato. But as you ahve rightly pointed out, this is by no means confirmation.

I find this disturbing. "Nothing has been said, so it's obviously true"? Have you been reading The Curious Case of the Dog in the Night-Time, by any chance?

When Kimi Raikkonen was talking to Williams, I saw a lot of comments (mostly on other forums) where people basically said "Nothing has been said about it for a while now, so it must be done - Raikkonen will be driving for Williams". He is now signed for Lotus.
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Rumours proved true in the end... And I was reading another post where you said you heard the Senna/Williams contract was signed but payment was pending. This makes sense as people who work for this brazilian tycoon sponsoring Bruno say he has spent all 2011 communication budget on him. So, although contract was arranged in december, payment could only be done now.

This could also be the reason Lotus did not want to wait for Senna. They did not trust the money would come this year and went for the safe Grosjean sporsors..,
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Didn't you say during my Trulli comment that this was mainly to blame due to the car and not Petrov or Senna.
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The Renault R31 finished the season very poorly. Nevertheless, both Senna and Petrov demonstrated that it was capable of scoring points. And Senna could have had more points were it not for his stupid mistakes in Belgium and Brazil.

RodrigoDLL
This could also be the reason Lotus did not want to wait for Senna. They did not trust the money would come this year and went for the safe Grosjean sporsors..,
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I don't think Lotus had any intention of taking Senna. They gave Vitaly Petrov two weeks to decide whether he wanted to stay with them, something they never offered Senna - and Senna wouldn't have started talking with Williams until after Lotus took Raikkonen because Williams had been pushing for Raikkonen for weeks, so approaching them for a race seat would not have done any good.
 
prisonermonkeys
The Renault R31 finished the season very poorly. Nevertheless, both Senna and Petrov demonstrated that it was capable of scoring points. And Senna could have had more points were it not for his stupid mistakes in Belgium and Brazil.
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Not claiming it can't be if the car is a glorified one to five lap queen, then I wouldn't fully blame Senna for the car under perfroming over a full race. Also with the frequent failures seen on the car through the season for all three drivers I can't fully blame Senna on that as well. I do agree though that some of the rookie mistakes made this season aren't justified so I can agree with you to a limit.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
the frequent failures seen on the car through the season for all three drivers I can't fully blame Senna on that as well
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I don't know - look at Senna's 2010 season. In eighteen races, he had nine retirements, and seven of those were mechanical faults. Compare that to the second Hispania car, which only experienced two mechanical faults in races all season long. I'm not really sure about problems in free practice and qualifying, but Senna has had a disproportionately-high number of mechanical problems, both at HRT and Renault, which suggests to me that he may not be particularly gentle with the car.
 
prisonermonkeys
I don't know - look at Senna's 2010 season. In eighteen races, he had nine retirements, and seven of those were mechanical faults. Compare that to the second Hispania car, which only experienced two mechanical faults in races all season long. I'm not really sure about problems in free practice and qualifying, but Senna has had a disproportionately-high number of mechanical problems, both at HRT and Renault, which suggests to me that he may not be particularly gentle with the car.
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Well the HRT wasn't a good car and needed to iron out many issues, so much that it was carried over to this past season though they did get slightly better. So for that I'd say it might have been more of HRT having new team woes. This season I'd say Bruno was just unlucky again with the hand dealt to him at Renault and the same can be said for Nick and Vitaly. Though as I said Bruno did make rookie mistakes and in doing so I still say he has much room to grow.

Anyways I think we should all put a sock in it and just wait and see what Senna and the FW34 can do as well as how Pastor does. Hopefully Bruno isn't going off to a team that had a defective car as well last year, and hopefully Pastor can drive a car that isn't full of bugs. A reoccuring conversation about if Bruno deserves his driver or any drive is something we don't need to address over and over.

Though I have to say PM, once again you do have a point. I just think both sides are rehasing this over and over (even myself which I apologize for).
 
Is there anything to speculate further about 2012? Or are we doomed to this Petrov-Senna offtopicness forever?
 
Should be easy for Petrov or even Sutil. Although I'm not sure HRT is a good place to be in for people aspiring to show their value. Old folks with nothing to prove like PdlR (or Barrichelo) might be in just for the fun of being with the "Circus" one more year, but then it's their sponsors that won't be as eager to give out money for a squad like HRT.

PS - I've been thinking about Barrichelo's career and while yesterday I was thinking that I would like to see him doing the WEC (either with Fisi driving a 458 Italia, or with a top LMP car), today I changed my mind, I'd like to see him follow the footsteps of Fittipaldi and go for Indy car full time season that would give him a chance of scoring a Indy 500 win.

I do change my mind often :D
 
prisonermonkeys
And Senna could have had more points were it not for his stupid mistakes in Belgium and Brazil.
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Even if the incident between Schumacher and Senna didn't happen, I doubt he would be able to stay within the points without a fourth gear for half the race.
 
Whatever he does, Barrichello should either be fully commited or bow out gracefully and not make dreadful comebacks or token appearences.

He's one of the best "Right up there but never quite made it" drivers, and his popularity, longevity and record speak for themselves. He's also my absolute favourite driver and while I will be sad to see him leave without a proper send-off, he's left a lasting legacy in the eyes of many people and some of his epic drives will be fondly remembered.
 
Hun200kmh
PS - I've been thinking about Barrichelo's career and while yesterday I was thinking that I would like to see him doing the WEC (either with Fisi driving a 458 Italia, or with a top LMP car), today I changed my mind, I'd like to see him follow the footsteps of Fittipaldi and go for Indy car full time season that would give him a chance of scoring a Indy 500 win.
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I don't think he would race Indy 500. I remember him saying he (and his wife) considers it too dangerous... specially now after the Wheldon accident. Remember has two young kids and is a very family type.
 
The Senna debate is pointless. Until he has a full season in a car that is worthy of being called an F1 car then we cannot possibly say wether he is better than Petrov or Sutil or whoever else you wish to throw in.
 
Hun200kmh
Old folks with nothing to prove like PdlR (or Barrichelo) might be in just for the fun of being with the "Circus" one more year, but then it's their sponsors that won't be as eager to give out money for a squad like HRT.
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I think de la Rosa is exctly what HRT needs because he has so much experience developing cars.
 
So, Ayrton died at the cock-pit of a Williams-Renault in 1994. Bruno signs for the team just as they are switching to Renault Engines for 2012. Coincidence?
 
Tom
So, Ayrton died at the cock-pit of a Williams-Renault in 1994. Bruno signs for the team just as they are switching to Renault Engines for 2012. Coincidence?
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Nothing gets people talking about a team better than historical references and parallels..so yeah, marketing dream-land, even if its a rather controversial link to the past.
 
I still think Williams should've gone with Sutil. He's much more experienced. But apparently talks ended by mid December, since neither side could come to an agreement on contract length. And also Medion's sponsorship package for Sutil has decreased.

Best of luck to Williams. Having two inexperienced drivers and a rookie test driver is not something you want when starting a year off with a new engine and gearbox supplier. But hopefully they'll be alright. It would be a sad day to see them not competing in F1.
 
astrosdude91
I still think Williams should've gone with Sutil. He's much more experienced. But apparently talks ended by mid December, since neither side could come to an agreement on contract length. And also Medion's sponsorship package for Sutil has decreased.

Best of luck to Williams. Having two inexperienced drivers and a rookie test driver is not something you want when starting a year off with a new engine and gearbox supplier. But hopefully they'll be alright. It would be a sad day to see them not competing in F1.
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I suspect the driveline will be the least of their worries, the main issue will be whether someone at Williams remembers how to design an aerodynamically efficient car and a decent chassis.
 
He may know nothing - the team simply may not have told him that they were going to replace him. Which is a bit odd, because talk out of Russia suggests an annoucement might be made as early as tomorrow. But Trulli has no reason to lie about this.
 
As a rule of thumb, when someone says an announcement will be made tomorrow, I'll usually add a few weeks to that.
 
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