::::: World Super GT Championship | Round 2 | Qualifying in Session! :::::

[OwensRacing]

The biggest variable is the driver. You cannot directly compare an RX7 driven by me to a Celica driven by you.

The only way is to have each driver test a range of cars. You can then infer things from the ordering and spread of the times. If both of us find that the Garaiya is much faster than all the other cars, then that's strong evidence that the Garaiya is actually faster. The more people get the same evidence, the stronger the hypothesis.

Testing cars is not an exact science. It's a matter of statistical analysis. Each driver should choose a track, and test a range of cars themselves. Don't focus on testing all the cars necessarily. Test each one until you're confident you can go no faster, then move on to the next. 3 or 4 cars tested like this is more valuable than 7 cars tested haphazardly. Data from testing that is not carried out thoroughly has no value.

I can't disagree with you.

 

[Denilson]

@ Paginas: If you almost ceashed in to Nycrom while warming your tyres, you really need to be more careful.

As I wrote in an earlier post: You have to be careful and keep a good distance to other drivers while warming your tyers.

I always try to heat up my tyres, but only on straights with a good distance to other drivers. I've never even got close to crash with someone because of it.

If it's not worth it?? Maybee, Maybee not.

I'll keep on doing it until there is a stated rule that say that it's not legit.

Don't understand why people care so much.. If you don't think it helps, don't do it.. Can't see the problem.

In which race did it cause a crash? I can't remember.. Probably one of the first races with a lot of new drivers... But I can't remember if it have ever been an incident because of it.

Or did I almost hit someone, and is that the reason every body tells me what to do? Or do you just want to argue about something? It kind of feels like that's the case at the moment since we got a lot of other, much bigger issues to debate and dedicate our time to.

So please, leave this discission at the moment. 👍

 

[Scanny_Flick]

Qualifying will always be thru hotlaps.
We are at the moment, during preseason use the standings just to keep it simple.

"Qualifying will be held through live online sessions. Official days are Mondays and Wednesday at 12.00 pm PST / 08.00 pm GMT / 9.00 pm CET.
Any of the Stewards or capable hosts, under the supervision of a Steward/s, can announce and hold qualifying sessions of their own.
No qualifying sessions can be conducted after Wednesday. Qualifying will be on hard Racing Tyres.
Procedure
A group of drivers per class will be given 2 or 3 laps to set a qualifying lap.
Laps will be run in 'Race' and will depend on track size (eg. 3 for Monza)
Laps will be monitored and watched by fellow competitors to validate cleanliness.
The number of cars will depend on track size (eg. 8 drivers and 8 spectators at Monza)
Once the race has been commenced, cars will roll on their warm up lap
Cars must stagger a number seconds between each other to make room (15 seconds for Monza)
Standard '2 wheel on track at all times' rule apply (Check Post 3 for Racing Conduct 'Ch.IV Track Contact')
Once finished, spectators will declare if their competitor ran a clean or dirty lap
If a protest arise for a doubtful or dirty lap, the replay will be saved and checked
If confirmed dirty, a timed penalty will be imposed depending on severity of offense
The process will repeat until we reach the limit of available drivers (eg. 25 for each class)"

yes but the OP says that there will be no qualy for same class races, grid will be set on points order

there are 4 same class races scheduled which is maybe too many to deny people the chance to qualify for, what do you think?

Raceday
Mixed Class: There will be 2 races held which will be split into two rooms. Each race/grid
will consist of Seven GT500 cars and seven GT300 cars. The top seven qualifiers for each class will
be relegated to Division 1, while the bottom seven will go to Division 2.

Same Class: GT500 and GT300 cars will battle their own kind. There will be only one room per class.
There will be no qualifying. Only the top 16 from the points standings has first priority to race. If for
some reasons a driver can't make the race, someone further down the list will be allowed to participate.

Hosts: Announced a few days prior to the race.

 

[competizione]

@ Paginas: If you almost ceashed in to Nycrom while warming your tyres, you really need to be more careful.

As I wrote in an earlier post: You have to be careful and keep a good distance to other drivers while warming your tyers.

I always try to heat up my tyres, but only on straights with a good distance to other drivers. I've never even got close to crash with someone because of it.

If it's not worth it?? Maybee, Maybee not.

I'll keep on doing it until there is a stated rule that say that it's not legit.

Don't understand why people care so much.. If you don't think it helps, don't do it.. Can't see the problem.

In which race did it cause a crash? I can't remember.. Probably one of the first races with a lot of new drivers... But I can't remember if it have ever been an incident because of it.

Or did I almost hit someone, and is that the reason every body tells me what to do? Or do you just want to argue about something? It kind of feels like that's the case at the moment since we got a lot of other, much bigger issues to debate and dedicate our time to.

So please, leave this discission at the moment. 👍

it caused 2 re starts at laguna seca

 

[Scanny_Flick]

someone did something on the parade lap at monza aswell

 

[Imari]

someone did something on the parade lap at monza aswell

Twice.

 

[Bakugekiki]

I did a quick test with some of the GT 300 machinery.

Here are my findings.



All cars were stock, using Hard tires and running on default setups.
Track was Nurburgring GP/D.

I don't have a Arta, nor the money to buy one. Thats the reason it wasn't tested.

Hope this helps, and sorry for the long post.

I just had a test session in the ARTA to compare it to those times, I have found what a lot of other tests have shown.

My time was a 1:32.229 with hards, slightly adjusted aerodynamics and a minimally adjusted transmission so near enough stock. I'm sure I could knock another 200 hundredths of it but I decided to keep it short, similar to what you did. So the cars are very evenly matched.

I haven't tried the car with any restrictions because I'm sure you would rather do the test yourself!

 

[Imari]

I've been doing some testing. Let me give you the data first.

Track: Tsukuba
Laps: 10 minimum

Power: 300hp
Weight: 1200kg
Aero: 35/60 (Full)
Tuning: None/default
Tyres: Racing Hard

IS350 - 56.678
RX7 '06 - 56.791
Garaiya '08 - 56.509
Celica - 56.543
MR-S - 56.655
Impreza '08 - 57.092
Impreza '03 - 56.893

The standard versions of the RX7 and Garaiya weren't tested.

Now, interpretation. Ignoring the Impreza for a second, that's a pretty spectacularly tight bunch of times. It's probably well within experimental error, and it's certainly close enough that in a race none of those cars would have a disadvantage.

The Impreza '08. It's just slower. Not by much, but it just is. It's probably just down to the 4WD drivetrain, which has it's advantages and disadvantages. It's slightly slower, but it's unbelievably stable. I spun all the other cars at least once pushing for lap times. I never spun the Impreza once. I think that's the tradeoff you make driving the '08, stability and consistency for pure speed.

The Impreza '03 is very nearly in the same group of times as the rest. The stock tune for the '03 is really bad for Tsukuba, it's far too stiff and it jolts around some of the bumpier corners. With a decent tune (GTVault will help) I think it will be competitive for anyone who wants to drive a Subaru and doesn't want the '08. At worst, it's very close behind.

I performed one more test before I finished. I wanted to demonstrate my hypothesis that all 300hp/1200kg cars are basically equal, barring certain strengths and weaknesses of particular chassis and drivetrains. I took a Xanavi GTR and tuned it down to 300hp/1200kg, added the appropriate amount of aero and performed the same test. The time after 10 laps was 56.606. It felt very different to drive to the GT300 cars because it's such a huge fat lump of a car, but it ultimately produced an almost identical lap time. I thought that was interesting.

TL;DR: At 300hp/1200kg all the cars are basically equivalent around Tsukuba.

I hope to try it at either Fuji or Suzuka later in the week, although that will be harder because the tracks are so much longer and more complex to get a solid clean lap in on. I also hope to test an NSX at 300hp/1200kg.

Edit: Tried in an NSX at 300hp/1200kg. 56.936. 56.7xx is possible, but I just can't get a whole clean lap in the NSX at those speeds. It's capable, it's just much more technically difficult to do than in the GTR.

 

[competizione]

i will do some testing tommorow where i will run the cars at 1100 kg minimum and just compensate with bigger restrictor/ more hp so we can se what is best for the series

 

[HortusIX]

can anyone help me to understand registration and competition participation as i'm a little confused...?
i've seen many names in the OP (my own included, just) that haven't appeared in any of the Race#1 scheduling tables for Daytona...
i understand Daytona was a practice race so it's possible that things will be different for the actual competition.

is everyone on the OP guranteed a drive? is there a waiting list?
somebody please clear this up for me as i've scanned the OP briefly and can't see any indication as to how the system works...

 

[Denilson]

yes but the OP says that there will be no qualy for same class races, grid will be set on points order

there are 4 same class races scheduled which is maybe too many to deny people the chance to qualify for, what do you think?

Raceday
Mixed Class: There will be 2 races held which will be split into two rooms. Each race/grid
will consist of Seven GT500 cars and seven GT300 cars. The top seven qualifiers for each class will
be relegated to Division 1, while the bottom seven will go to Division 2.

Same Class: GT500 and GT300 cars will battle their own kind. There will be only one room per class.
There will be no qualifying. Only the top 16 from the points standings has first priority to race. If for
some reasons a driver can't make the race, someone further down the list will be allowed to participate.

Hosts: Announced a few days prior to the race.

Yes, that's correct. my mistake. The one class races aim to shuffle the board a little bit I guess

 

[doctsuru_69]

I'm adding the standard GT300 cars to my shared selections so that people can try them out. If people want to have a copy of their own, I'm happy to dupe one and send it to you.

I have the following up:
Razo Silvia
RX7 '04
Garaiya '03
Impreza '03
Celica
MR-2

Give them a go if you haven't already.

Hi Imari, can i borrow your RX7 '04?-- much better if you can send it as a gift . I haven't tried any GT300 cars except for my poor Impreza '08. My PSN is "doctsuru_69". thanks.

 

[Imari]

Hi Imari, can i borrow your RX7 '04?-- much better if you can send it as a gift . I haven't tried any GT300 cars except for my poor Impreza '08. My PSN is "doctsuru_69". thanks.

Can't send it until tomorrow, because I have to send an MR-S today. Why not just buy the premium RX7 from the RE Amemiya dealership? It looks better and it's basically identical, it even has a little more power than the standard version.

 

[MaccGyver]

can anyone help me to understand registration and competition participation as i'm a little confused...?
i've seen many names in the OP (my own included, just) that haven't appeared in any of the Race#1 scheduling tables for Daytona...
i understand Daytona was a practice race so it's possible that things will be different for the actual competition.

is everyone on the OP guranteed a drive? is there a waiting list?
somebody please clear this up for me as i've scanned the OP briefly and can't see any indication as to how the system works...

There are 30 drivers for each class or near that amount.
For the championship there are qualifying sessions during the week.
Official qualifying is on monday and wednsday at the stated times. You can also get your own qualifying session going as long as you have a steward with you to watch over.

The top 16 drivers from qualifying for each class get to race that week.
The top 8 GT500 and top 8 GT300 will make up the division 1 race.
And the bottom 8 GT500 and bottom 8 GT300 make up the division 2 race.

 

[nycrom1971]

I did a quick test with some of the GT 500 machinery:

Circuit: Suzuka
Tyres: Hard
Wings: Full

For this test I took as reference the Epson NSX, 505Hp / 1.150Kg PP = 631.
I set all the cars admitted to the GT500 championship with these values PP (631), and with a limit of maximum power of 505Hp, I have done this to avoid upgrade of power, and because the real in the SuperGT is about 500hp.
To achieve this mix of PP and HP I had to work on the weight of the car as follows:
Honda NSX Epson '08: 505hp/1.100kg - PP 631
Honda NSX Takata '08: 505hp / 1.147Kg - PP 631
XANAVI '08 Nissan GTR: 505hp / 1.220Kg - PP 631
Petronas '08 Lexus SC430: 505hp / 1.191Kg - PP 631
Lexus SC430 Eneos'08: 505hp/1.120Kg - PP 631
Supra Yellowhat '05: 505hp / 1.130Kg - PP631
Tom's Castrol Supra: 505hp/1.300Kg - PP631 (no full Wings)

I then performed a test on track for 7 / 8 laps each car:

Honda Epson: 1:59,685
Honda Takata: 1:59,594
Nissan XANAVI: 1:59,522
Lexus Petronas: 1:59,954
Lexus Eneos: 1:59,999
Toyota Supra Yellowhat: 1:59,985
Tom's Toyota Supra: 2:00,625

I hope this data can be useful, I think it's better to work on weight and not on power.

Cheers

 

[Andil]

I liked Senninha's trial of running cars with the exact same power and weight, regardless of what PP that may be. Seemed very even like that, and works towards the same SuperGT format of running the same weights. Cars which were normally 1+ seconds off the pace (Hello IS350) were suddenly putting in the same laptime as the quickest cars in the class, it can only be the way forward to work with same horsepower and weight limits - PP seems still unbalanced; the IS350 for example has a higher PP value than the RX7 and Arta in GT300, and we have all determined that it's the slowest car in the class, yet PP claims otherwise.

Perhaps some testing could be done on GT500 cars with say 500hp/1200kg?

Then GT300 could be 300hp/1200kg.

Edit: Scrap this idea, simple testing with RX7 and IS350 shows there is still a big difference in laptime with equal power and weight. However, PP is not the way to go either. An IS350 at 555PP (300hp/1200kg) laps about a second slower than an RX7 at 545PP (300hp/1200kg).

 

[competizione]

have a practice room up just add GTP_Senninha

 

[Andil]

Will be there in a sec

 

[doctsuru_69]

Can't send it until tomorrow, because I have to send an MR-S today. Why not just buy the premium RX7 from the RE Amemiya dealership? It looks better and it's basically identical, it even has a little more power than the standard version.

If that's the case, i'll buy one. Thanks for the advise. 👍

 

[MaccGyver]

I have a practice room up if anybody wants to join.

 

[Paginas1]

I have a practice room up if anybody wants to join.

i think someone already has 1 up (senniha) join him cos il be in, in bit just trying out the new remote races with bspec etc

 

[Andil]

After messing around a bit with PP and Weight/HP Limits, I am pretty sure we will need some custom horsepower for each car to ensure they are even - if we want the field to be equal. For example the IS350 is a notoriously slow car - at 300hp/1200kg it is 10PP more than the RX7, yet laps a second a lap slower round Suzuka than the Mazda with same hp/weight. Put the IS350 up to 315hp/1200kg and I can get it round the circuit in a very similar laptime.

Perhaps for the second season we can look at exact HP numbers and/or weight limits to make each car as equal as possible - I think this will take a long time and a lot of discussion, so perhaps it's better to keep the car list and regulations as they are for now? I think we were good to go before the PP and Power system came in, so maybe we shouldn't mess around with things too much.

Something like 300hp/1200kg and 500hp/1200kg would be very easy to regulate, however. Simply let all the GT300s enter the race with the 300hp limit, to prove they are within regulations. Then up it to 500, allowing the GT500s to enter, again proving they are within regulations. Then there's no having to worry about any cheating, it's all equal, but we will end up with (I would imagine) a very boring field. GT300s certainly would consist of RX7s/Artas/Celicas I think, unless anyone can find a magic wand to make certain cars quicker and more competitive. I would guess GT500 would then be limited to NSXs and GTRs. Just a thought anyway.

Perhaps in the second season we could even introduce a ballast system as a way of keeping the field equal - say 20kg for the winner, 10kg for 2nd, 5kg for 3rd - it would make things quite exciting, but probably too late (I don't think anyone wants to postpone the season another week?) to decide big things like this.

 

[Imari]

The IS350 is an anomaly. With equal power and weight, it will lose in a drag race to every other car. It's not down on torque, or anything else as far as I can tell. It's just a bad car.

Maybe that's just what happens. All the rest of the cars seem pretty even to me, save the Impreza '08 and that's for good, understandable reasons. I don't think it's worth breaking what could be a very simple system (300hp/1200kg) for the sake of saving one car. It sucks that it happens to be a premium (and a cute little car), but maybe that's just the price you pay.

 

[Paginas1]

After messing around a bit with PP and Weight/HP Limits, I am pretty sure we will need some custom horsepower for each car to ensure they are even - if we want the field to be equal. For example the IS350 is a notoriously slow car - at 300hp/1200kg it is 10PP more than the RX7, yet laps a second a lap slower round Suzuka than the Mazda with same hp/weight. Put the IS350 up to 315hp/1200kg and I can get it round the circuit in a very similar laptime.

Perhaps for the second season we can look at exact HP numbers and/or weight limits to make each car as equal as possible - I think this will take a long time and a lot of discussion, so perhaps it's better to keep the car list and regulations as they are for now? I think we were good to go before the PP and Power system came in, so maybe we shouldn't mess around with things too much.

Something like 300hp/1200kg and 500hp/1200kg would be very easy to regulate, however. Simply let all the GT300s enter the race with the 300hp limit, to prove they are within regulations. Then up it to 500, allowing the GT500s to enter, again proving they are within regulations. Then there's no having to worry about any cheating, it's all equal, but we will end up with (I would imagine) a very boring field. GT300s certainly would consist of RX7s/Artas/Celicas I think, unless anyone can find a magic wand to make certain cars quicker and more competitive. I would guess GT500 would then be limited to NSXs and GTRs. Just a thought anyway.

Perhaps in the second season we could even introduce a ballast system as a way of keeping the field equal - say 20kg for the winner, 10kg for 2nd, 5kg for 3rd - it would make things quite exciting, but probably too late (I don't think anyone wants to postpone the season another week?) to decide big things like this.

i am all infavour in keeping it how it is at the moment for this season and yes for next we can decide on a hp limit etc (it will take along time)

Also infavour of a ballast system i would suggest 50kg 30kg 10kg

 

[Andil]

Only problem with 50kg is that I think you can only add 200kg to a car? That would get used up very fast if someone wins often. Anyway, can be discussed later

And fair enough Imari, will try 300hp/1200kg with some other cars, if they are quite even then maybe it's a good system to go with.

 

[Andil]

A bit of testing, 300hp/1200kg @ Suzuka, 2 flying laps - a circuit that I know very well, enough to be able to do multiple clean laps, lap after lap after lap:

IS350: 2:10.706, 2:10.066
RX7: 2:09.991, 2:09.227
Celica: 2:09.775, 2:09.474
MRS: 2:10.294, 2:09.947
Impreza: 2:10.224, 2:09.906
Arta: 2:08.955, 2:08.639

I think we still have 3 clear favourites in GT300 class even with the same power/weight, but I don't think there is much we can do about it without getting very specific about power for each individual car, something which we don't have time for right now.

The Arta is undoubtedly quickest, but is also the most difficult to drive, so a fair trade off. The RX7 and Celica are nice to drive, but not as easy to drive as the Impreza or IS350. Consistency is key in the races, so I'm sure there will be times where the more stable Impreza or IS350 can take the win (It's happened in pre-season). The MRS seems a bit slow on the straights, but has some great cornering.

Make of that what you will, anyway!

 

[HortusIX]

There are 30 drivers for each class or near that amount.
For the championship there are qualifying sessions during the week.
Official qualifying is on monday and wednsday at the stated times. You can also get your own qualifying session going as long as you have a steward with you to watch over.

The top 16 drivers from qualifying for each class get to race that week.
The top 8 GT500 and top 8 GT300 will make up the division 1 race.
And the bottom 8 GT500 and bottom 8 GT300 make up the division 2 race.

that's great - all cleared up. thanks

 

[MaccGyver]

i think someone already has 1 up (senniha) join him cos il be in, in bit just trying out the new remote races with bspec etc

I did join but that is being hosted in his lounge.
I prefer to practice online just to make sure it is the same as the race.👍

 

[Imari]

A bit of testing, 300hp/1200kg @ Suzuka, 2 flying laps - a circuit that I know very well, enough to be able to do multiple clean laps, lap after lap after lap:

IS350: 2:10.706, 2:10.066
RX7: 2:09.991, 2:09.227
Celica: 2:09.775, 2:09.474
MRS: 2:10.294, 2:09.947
Impreza: 2:10.224, 2:09.906
Arta: 2:08.955, 2:08.639

I think we still have 3 clear favourites in GT300 class even with the same power/weight, but I don't think there is much we can do about it without getting very specific about power for each individual car, something which we don't have time for right now.

The Arta is undoubtedly quickest, but is also the most difficult to drive, so a fair trade off. The RX7 and Celica are nice to drive, but not as easy to drive as the Impreza or IS350. Consistency is key in the races, so I'm sure there will be times where the more stable Impreza or IS350 can take the win (It's happened in pre-season). The MRS seems a bit slow on the straights, but has some great cornering.

Make of that what you will, anyway!

That's pretty much what I've been seeing at Suzuka. The Arta is quick, but the other "good" cars are within about a second of it. On a 2 min+ lap, and with the crazy draft to even things out, I think that's acceptable. As you say, even the Impreza or IS350 could take the win in the right situation, they have advantages. I think the advantages are small enough that it's better to drive a car that suits your style rather than wrestle the greasy pig that is the Arta.

 

[Paginas1]

I would just like to add

Tonight i will be hosting a LIVE QUALIFYING (or il get someone else with good connection)

This will be for people that cannot do it during the week e.g. XsApollo who has to work night shifts this week....

I will set it up around 6pm GMT (i will post lobby number here so look out)
I will give some time to practice and then it begins!!!

People can turn up to watch if they like

Good luck hehe:tup: