FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

  • Thread starter Scaff
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Read my posts, using youtube videos and gifs of certain locations or settings, isn't telling the whole picture...
I don't know if you have FM4, but try to change the audio, to Tires setting...
Sound in GT5 cannot be praised, if you continue to praise the realism in that game...
Most of the cars, sound like vaccum cleaners....
The premiuns some of them, are very good....
Even if Forza 4, gives a certain "uproar" to some of the engines.....

Now i'm not saying that Forza 4 is Perfect, far from it... Turn10 has some really nasty mistakes, including some car models, track accuracies....
But is a better package....
 
GTForzafan
Read my posts, using youtube videos and gifs of certain locations or settings, isn't telling the whole picture...
I don't know if you have FM4, but try to change the audio, to Tires setting...
Sound in GT5 cannot be praised, if you continue to praise the realism in that game...
Most of the cars, sound like vaccum cleaners....
The premiuns some of them, are very good....
Even if Forza 4, gives a certain "uproar" to some of the engines.....

Now i'm not saying that Forza 4 is Perfect, far from it... Turn10 has some really nasty mistakes, including some car models, track accuracies....
But is a better package....
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Hey man I will never tell somebody their opinion is wrong, just as you feel for FM4 I do with GT5 and I will agree some cars are really jacked up but as a whole I love the sounds. The replays the tunnel driving the back fire pop etc. As for the better package GT5 offers more for me, I wont say is a better package because everybody plays their games differently. 👍
 
JDMKING13
Whats funny is you talked about GT5, but nothing about when GT5 fail videos were posted which didn't have AI settings also :odd: then you talk about fanatism... I used the video to talk about the sounds not to compare the AI or bash FM4 AI. I even said the outside sounds in FM4 sound way better than in FM3.
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Then why comment on the AI's and post a vid showing GT5 vs FM4 if you're not comparing them?
 
Ultimatley, who cares? their both great games and a coherent argument could be made for either game being better, all things considered, than the other.
There's no doubt a massive earthquake and impending nuclear meltdown had a mass effect on everyone in Japan, incl PD......... maybe that means
they couldn't make as many suits + hemets as they wanted :)
Rather than more of the things that a western audience wish for, only they know, and everything else is just idle speculation.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Then why comment on the AI's and post a vid showing GT5 vs FM4 if you're not comparing them?
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I did comment on the AI for GT5 all I said was " beside the AI dodging I like the sounds in GT5". LMS please stop trying, I'm not a fan boy or some guy who is trying to make himself seem better to others. I was comparing the sounds if you read my post correct for the 10th time. I was parsing FM4 on the improvement also, I have an opinion respect or just ignore it.
 
JDMking13 if you want to compare the sounds, don't post A.I. dubious videos, but some video with the sounds of both games....
You're not fooling me....
You have a preference, it's GT5....
I continue to say, that Forza 4 it's a better package....
GT5 is a mixed game, it can offer you the best with the premium content, and the worse with it's converted tracks and cars....

You prefer GT5, that's OK. But does not change, that GT5 is a game of contrasts....
 
GTForzafan
JDMking13 if you want to compare the sounds, don't post A.I. dubious videos, but some video with the sounds of both games....
You're not fooling me....
You have a preference, it's GT5....
I continue to say, that Forza 4 it's a better package....
GT5 is a mixed game, it can offer you the best with the premium content, and the worse with it's converted tracks and cars....

You prefer GT5, that's OK. But does not change, that GT5 is a game of contrasts....
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Fooling are you serious the proof is in the post did you read the original post I did not comment on the FM4 AI nor did I say it was bad so maybe your just looking into things to much which I can tell from your other post. Again please read my post again then come back, as for your FM4 is a better package statement I'm pretty sure we are not supposed to state opinions as facts I see what your doing there.
 
If one game, has converted content from ps2 games and tracks, it's not consistent the entire time, has a clumbersome menu
And another game, it's easy to navigate, content equally distributed, has community, customization and it feels complete and not rushed....
Maybe it's because it's the better package....
These are facts...
And also the reviews, tell us the same story....
You can argue all you want, but Gt5 has messed pretty badly in some areas...
 
I'm not sure sure but I should mention some points because unfortunately GT posters tackle some problems in the wrong way and that will generate any criticize towards FM games as invalid.

The sounds in FM games are by far superior to the GT ones, sound examples for exhausts and environmental conditions(rivers and wind for example) have also been done, better than GT5's it must be said. One of the main problems in GT games is how they sound, the FM sounds have been pretty spot on since FM1, and one could argue that even FM2 sounds are actually better than GT5's. GT games have done direct sound recording but PD's sound department in this area isn't very strong.

Then there are the AI in each game, and for this I will go a bit deeper.

GT5: AI here is a heritage of GT5 prologue's AI, what it basically does is follows an restrictive path (or racing line) and only applies anti-collision algorithms, improvements from GT4's AI were the new algorithms for tire degradation grip and how the AI should tackle such eventualities. GT5 AI is only restrictive to an scripted racing line that tells the AI when the entrance is speed is to high and it tells it if there is an object along the way(this is to use an alternative scripted racing line), GT5's AI does not make passing strategies as it only uses anti-collision algorithms for overtakes(note that B-spec is build over the same principles, development in B-spec only represents more accurate data for cornering, to be more accurate, closer to optimal data for entering speeds into a corner).

FM in general: AI in FM games have been a development from FM1's AI, this is based over the similar principles as GT5's AI, but in the case of FM games the AI have alternative settings which in FM1/FM2 were static and now they are dynamic, FM's AI also takes tyre data in considerations but it also considers(recently) throttle response and position in relation to the other objects in the track. FM AI reads player's entry speeds into a corner and also reads exit speeds, from that data it calculates an strategy for the next lap and it recycles the same data depending on players overall performance, the strategy is based for overtaking and it uses this data to create an strategy against the player, its actually a remarkable thing when you get down to it because it does this in real time(in some occasions it also uses this data to mimics player's cornering speeds and racing line to make it more competitive).

Further developments in FM3 like rewind makes the AI on FM games dynamic at all times, since it recalculates its strategy when the player uses rewind taking in count the position of the player on the track, its cornering data and different racing lines. In FM4 this same model is implemented with the difference of exit speeds for different difficulty setting, what is creating some glitches is the lack of 360's memory to storage this data, most of the FM4 glitches can be attributed to missing data when recalculating the players position when rewind feature is used.

It should also be acknowledged that neither game can create an equal challenge against an experimented player with the same car, however FM games AI have been more advanced compared to GT games.

I normally wouldn't post stuff like this in this sort of situations, however seeing the idiotic behaviour of both sides I believe that stuff like this should be acknowledged, no one has yet come out with a valid explanation of why FM AI and sounds are better, however the argument of "because is better" is something that people should stop doing, because it shows the idiotic logic that fanboysm provides.
 
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azrael1965
Which sinking ship? Sure i play Forza 4 now, but as someone else said i can already see the finishing line as well. Then it's back to GT5 and my beloved Nordschleife. :)
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Yeah i have heard this so much that they should have just probably stopped at the ring along with 20 cars and then everyone would have been happy lol.
 
prymet1me
"Now having said that, I don't see anything ugly in GT5."

Best post on this entire website by far! Tenacious D please tell me that was sarcasm.
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Nope, not a bit, but I'm seeing that only certain "politically correct" opinions are allowed around here.

I mean, seriously, you guys prefer cars that all sound like racing prototypes, even with stock parts?
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
How long did it affect PD, cause your making it out to be quite a long time. Also what about all the 5-7 magnitude quakes that have happend since then? Shall we blame them for delays as well. They're use to earthquakes just like me living on the San Andres fault makes me use to them so let's get a grip. Yes it was bad but give me proof of how long it lasted, also don't make this argument a low blow. I'm tired of you people always bringing up the earthquakes as if those arguing against GT5 have no soul or care, it's more of a slap to the face for the victims to use their circumstances to argue your moot point.

Now if you used a more realistic cause for the delays...let's say Sony not having a secure system online wise to send updates to us. Hence the hacking attacks that crippled sony for a month, then I'd give you that and shut up, but since you guys aren't using that it makes me wonder...are you guys just throwing stuff out there and not fact checking or what?
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I agree with you the tsunami excuse is a weak one at best.

Oh had they released GT5 when they said they were it would have came out before the Tsunami happened ohhhh you say had they done that the game would have been incomplete? looks like the results were the same with the delays and 6 years anyway. I'm just saying the Tsunami excuse is a very moot point when you look at the 6 years of delays and promises of grandure only to get a game that IMO was not better than gt4.
 
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Tenacious D
Sure, I'd love more Premium content, but Polyphony isn't funded by a monopoly which is made of cash, and who can afford to employ upward of 400 people to make the game.
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Why do you keep saying this? What relevance do you think this would actually hold even if it wasn't the twisted double standard that it is?
 
Tenacious D
Nope, not a bit, but I'm seeing that only certain "politically correct" opinions are allowed around here.

I mean, seriously, you guys prefer cars that all sound like racing prototypes, even with stock parts?
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What game would that be? Definitely not Forza 4.

Toronado
Why do you keep saying this? What relevance do you think this actually holds even if it wasn't a twisted double standard?
Click to expand...

Maybe he, for some reason, believes Sony isn't a money grubbing company that is already flush enough with cash that they could give away PS3s for free and still come out with money in their pockets.
 
JDMKING13
I did comment on the AI for GT5 all I said was " beside the AI dodging I like the sounds in GT5". LMS please stop trying, I'm not a fan boy or some guy who is trying to make himself seem better to others. I was comparing the sounds if you read my post correct for the 10th time. I was parsing FM4 on the improvement also, I have an opinion respect or just ignore it.
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It was a GT5 vs FM4 vid what idea do you think people will get from that? Obviously your putting them head to head to see who is better, like others have said if you don't want people to think that way then post a vid that shows what your trying to say. You may not want to admit your wrong and that's fine but the message we got is totally different from what you are saying.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
It was a GT5 vs FM4 vid what idea do you think people will get from that? Obviously your putting them head to head to see who is better, like others have said if you don't want people to think that way then post a vid that shows what your trying to say. You may not want to admit your wrong and that's fine but the message we got is totally different from what you are saying.
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See the special words I highlighted, LMS the only people who have a problem are you die hard please re read my post again not one time did a bash FM AI or sound. In that video you can hear the sounds of the cars as they pass the F40 that's was what I was talking about. The problem is you guys saw what you wanted to see and have to be right at everything, I stated my opinion respecting the game and others I can't say the same for you guys.
 
Tenacious D
Nope, not a bit, but I'm seeing that only certain "politically correct" opinions are allowed around here.

I mean, seriously, you guys prefer cars that all sound like racing prototypes, even with stock parts?
Click to expand...

What game have you played that has ALL cars sounding like racing prototypes? This is a GT and Forza thread.
 
JDMKING13
See the special words I highlighted, LMS the only people who have a problem are you die hard please re read my post again not one time did a bash FM AI or sound. In that video you can hear the sounds of the cars as they pass the F40 that's was what I was talking about. The problem is you guys saw what you wanted to see and have to be right at everything, I stated my opinion respecting the game and others I can't say the same for you guys.
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Well if it isn't the pot calling the kettle black, if you paid attention to this thread you'd see that my trend is in favor of both GT5 and FM4 as well as showing how there are other games better than both in being aids to amateur racers. I couldn't care less about FM4 and GT5 being best cause they're not either of them. However, to you I'm and FM4 fanatic. No, I'm a car fanatic that wants to play a game that is closest to the realism and experience of several cars that I may never get to drive in real life. I'm also a die hard know the facts and tell the truth type guy with everything (especially politics). I read your miniscule post a few times, it's not like it was a 200 words post it was small and easy to read, yet somehow what you said and the video you posted contradicted what you meant. That is all on you, so don't get mad at me and others putting you on blast because you didn't think before posting. As far as respect others...by calling you out for being wrong that is disrespectful...excuse me if I want the laymen to know that what you post isn't factual there are people new to sim racing on this forum that may read this.

My question to you is why not just find a video of the F40 alone with revving on the game (many vids other there of it) and post that...but rather post it in a thread of appreciation for one or the other game and not a debate thread. The way you've explained your post now to me is as follows: "I only wanted to show how good the AI is (for both games) also how good the sound of the F40 was and how FM4 has improved over FM3."

That doesn't sound like it add to this conversation so why post here of all thread in the first place? I like your respect for both games but if you don't want people to debate you on this then why post at all? It just baffles me. Also it's a debate so why wouldn't I want to be right over you, especially after looking into the facts and research what is true and false?
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Well if it isn't the pot calling the kettle black, if you paid attention to this thread you'd see that my trend is in favor of both GT5 and FM4 as well as showing how there are other games better than both in being aids to amateur racers. I couldn't care less about FM4 and GT5 being best cause they're not either of them. However, to you I'm and FM4 fanatic. No, I'm a car fanatic that wants to play a game that is closest to the realism and experience of several cars that I may never get to drive in real life. I'm also a die hard know the facts and tell the truth type guy with everything (especially politics). I read your miniscule post a few times, it's not like it was a 200 words post it was small and easy to read, yet somehow what you said and the video you posted contradicted what you meant. That is all on you, so don't get mad at me and others putting you on blast because you didn't think before posting. As far as respect others...by calling you out for being wrong that is disrespectful...excuse me if I want the laymen to know that what you post isn't factual there are people new to sim racing on this forum that may read this.

My question to you is why not just find a video of the F40 alone with revving on the game (many vids other there of it) and post that...but rather post it in a thread of appreciation for one or the other game and not a debate thread. The way you've explained your post now to me is as follows: "I only wanted to show how good the AI is (for both games) also how good the sound of the F40 was and how FM4 has improved over FM3."

That doesn't sound like it add to this conversation so why post here of all thread in the first place? I like your respect for both games but if you don't want people to debate you on this then why post at all? It just baffles me. Also it's a debate so why wouldn't I want to be right over you, especially after looking into the facts and research what is true and false?
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LMS is you quoted me debate what I'm talking about not the words you put in my mouth or how you caught me with my paints down, or how you state your opinions as a facts. I can use any video I want as long as it goes with my argument it's in the AUP. That video showed how the cars sounds in chase cam which is different sounds you hear coming from interior view. Which I said I love how GT5 does it and FM4 got better but still needs some work. Honestly Just drop it this argument is not going anywhere it's not that serious I will ignore your post and please ignore mine. Just as your mechanical statement implied I'm not trying to be better than you I'm just here stating my opinion which i didn't know opinion:rolleyes:

Edit re reading your post you really need to check yourself telling people why post somewhere is not your job this is FM vs GT not FM only talk about the bad vs GT5 only talk about the bad, Also i never said anything about comparing the AI there you go again putting word in my mouth.
 
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JDMKING13
LMS is you quoted me debate what I'm talking about not the words you put in my mouth or how you caught me with my paints down, or how you state your opinions as a facts. I can use any video I want as long as it goes with my argument it's in the AUP. That video showed how the cars sounds in chase cam which is different sounds you hear coming from interior view. Which I said I love how GT5 does it and FM4 got better but still needs some work. Honestly Just drop it this argument is not going anywhere it's not that serious I will ignore your post and please ignore mine. Just as your mechanical statement implied I'm not trying to be better than you I'm just here stating my opinion. :rolleyes:

Edit re reading your post you really need to check yourself telling people why post somewhere is not your job this is FM vs GT not FM only talk about the bad vs GT5 only talk about the bad, Also i never said anything about comparing the AI there you go again putting word in my mouth
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That's fine but I'm not the only one that thought you were in the wrong and you know it, I just decided to be more vocal. I don't understand how you dont get the fact that if you post a vid that is GT5 vs FM4 AI and then try to claim you're not trying to show what AI is better, that people are not going to call you out on it. Also I didn't understand much of your first post AUP rules which I have read also state use of proper english...just saying if we're going to tout AUP rules here and there just cause you feel like the thread is attacking you, when we're only saying how you were wrong. I'm fine with us ignoring one another, I'll ignore your opinions but I'm fine with you calling me out when I'm wrong and actually encourage it.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
That's fine but I'm not the only one that thought you were in the wrong and you know it, I just decided to be more vocal. I don't understand how you dont get the fact that if you post a vid that is GT5 vs FM4 AI and then try to claim you're not trying to show what AI is better, that people are not going to call you out on it. Also I didn't understand much of your first post AUP rules which I have read also state use of proper english...just saying if we're going to tout AUP rules here and there just cause you feel like the thread is attacking you, when we're only saying how you were wrong. I'm fine with us ignoring one another, I'll ignore your opinions but I'm fine with you calling me out when I'm wrong and actually encourage it.
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The thread is attacking me :odd: are you serious man only person who keeps talking about it is you, even one guy told you I said it was my opinion and you Ignored him. So you gonna tell me that people have never posted video's with specific tittle but talked about something different within the video? You keep calling me wrong and now I see you speak for others huh? The people that replied to me are Die hard FM fans which if you look at their post they did not argue the point but said negative things toward me and GT5. All I did was state my opinion how can I be wrong? You were the one out of line telling me how your the mechanic and i'm the gamer calling me a liar when I was clearly telling the truth all your trying to do is make your self look better it's clearly in all your post. You tell me I cant talk about the good in both games, you tell me where to post you tell me I have no knowledge of cars sound because i'm a gamer ughhh 👎 That's it for me man, we will both be in the ignore list that's something we can agree with. 👍
 
@ JDM.

You try so hard to act un-biased. Posting a video of AI in a GT5 vs FM4, you are either acting dense, or passive aggresive. I would go with the latter, but you also mentioned the sounds in GT5 being real good. So I guess it can go either way.

See, I am biased. I can admit it. I thought GT5 sucked when I first got it. Kept playing because of people like you saying its so awesome. Patches, and updates came out with seasonals, and again I picked it up. Again scratched my head asking myself, am *I* just not getting it? I kept going...wondering when the rolling starts would stop and actually have a proper start. Asking why is this car a premium and this one not? Asking why I cant tune simple critical things like tire pressure, and upgrade brakes. Still I stuck with it, because ONLINE is where it is at. Ok. Lagfest, bumpercars, and everyone has the same car as far as looks. You know what...Ill end it there. If I write everything that is wrong with GT5, I will be up for at least 3 hours.

Case in point. I dont like GT5. 98% sure I wont pick it up again. I was tempted by the 2.0 and DLC, but FM4 is here now, and as far as fun, pysics, graphics across the board, sound, online, and just over all package, it has stomped out any feelings of giving GT5 another go.

Thank goodness.

*PS - You are a grown man are you not? Stop boo-hooing, over people "attacking" you. Its an internet forum man...
 
Vaxxtx
@ JDM.

You try so hard to act un-biased. Posting a video of AI in a GT5 vs FM4, you are either acting dense, or passive aggresive. I would go with the latter, but you also mentioned the sounds in GT5 being real good. So I guess it can go either way.

See, I am biased. I can admit it. I thought GT5 sucked when I first got it. Kept playing because of people like you saying its so awesome. Patches, and updates came out with seasonals, and again I picked it up. Again scratched my head asking myself, am *I* just not getting it? I kept going...wondering when the rolling starts would stop and actually have a proper start. Asking why is this car a premium and this one not? Asking why I cant tune simple critical things like tire pressure, and upgrade brakes. Still I stuck with it, because ONLINE is where it is at. Ok. Lagfest, bumpercars, and everyone has the same car as far as looks. You know what...Ill end it there. If I write everything that is wrong with GT5, I will be up for at least 3 hours.

Case in point. I dont like GT5. 98% sure I wont pick it up again. I was tempted by the 2.0 and DLC, but FM4 is here now, and as far as fun, pysics, graphics across the board, sound, online, and just over all package, it has stomped out any feelings of giving GT5 another go.

Thank goodness.

*PS - You are a grown man are you not? Stop boo-hooing, over people "attacking" you. Its an internet forum man...
Click to expand...

Don't bother he clearly thinks he didn't do anything wrong and is a bit naive, and just over thinking what I'm trying to tell him in the end and actually in a friendly manner. Oh well...good honest post by the way from you 👍
 
Vaxxtx
@ JDM.

You try so hard to act un-biased. Posting a video of AI in a GT5 vs FM4, you are either acting dense, or passive aggresive. I would go with the latter, but you also mentioned the sounds in GT5 being real good. So I guess it can go either way.

See, I am biased. I can admit it. I thought GT5 sucked when I first got it. Kept playing because of people like you saying its so awesome. Patches, and updates came out with seasonals, and again I picked it up. Again scratched my head asking myself, am *I* just not getting it? I kept going...wondering when the rolling starts would stop and actually have a proper start. Asking why is this car a premium and this one not? Asking why I cant tune simple critical things like tire pressure, and upgrade brakes. Still I stuck with it, because ONLINE is where it is at. Ok. Lagfest, bumpercars, and everyone has the same car as far as looks. You know what...Ill end it there. If I write everything that is wrong with GT5, I will be up for at least 3 hours.

Case in point. I dont like GT5. 98% sure I wont pick it up again. I was tempted by the 2.0 and DLC, but FM4 is here now, and as far as fun, pysics, graphics across the board, sound, online, and just over all package, it has stomped out any feelings of giving GT5 another go.

Thank goodness.

*PS - You are a grown man are you not? Stop boo-hooing, over people "attacking" you. Its an internet forum man...
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Vatxx i'm glad you can admit you are biased I figured that, I am not I like both gamed but I enjoy GT5 more for my own reason just as yours, again only people I see who had a problem with the video where the DIE hards point proven. That video showed the sounds from chase cam that was the purpose of the video to hear the sounds and at the same time I gave both games props. If you read my post did I stress on the AI? Nope So what are people talking about if they quoted what I said? Nobody is crying on here and it is the internet that's why we have many tough guys on here. Attacking me :odd: Please stop I have seen you say you would report people of smaller things and your telling me to man up :rolleyes:
 
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Vaxxtx
*PS - You are a grown man are you not? Stop boo-hooing, over people "attacking" you. Its an internet forum man...
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👎

Playing the man and not the ball leads to yellow cards in football games, and this forum is no different in it's philosophy. Argue the point, not the person.

That goes for everyone. :)
 
PzR Slim
And this is the reason I totally discount your opinion in this discussion.
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Well, it's only his opinion. If you call something ugly or not is completely subjective. The decision to discount someone's opinion because of something completely subjective only does damage to your credibility.

Feel free to discount my comment if it doesn't fit your opinion, only... I hope you get the idea.
 
Hugo Boss
Well, it's only his opinion. If you call something ugly or not is completely subjective. The decision to discount someone's opinion because of something completely subjective only does damage to your credibility.

Feel free to discount my comment if it doesn't fit your opinion, only... I hope you get the idea.
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I'm now going to use a very different example and see if your claim stacks up. In the opinion of most dictators around the world the murder and torture of their countrymen and women is necessary. I'm afraid I would have to discount those opinions as well. Does that damage my credibility?

I discount his opinion because he holds that opinion whilst finding every possible way to criticise FM. The double standards he employs are some of the biggest that can be found in this discussion. I have good reason for discounting his opinion. He is fully entitled to his opinions by all means. However, by holding such opinions he can't expect his views to hold any weight when they are so far out of the accepted norm by the majority of posters from both sides of the debate.
 
PzR Slim
I'm now going to use a very different example and see if your claim stacks up. In the opinion of most dictators around the world the murder and torture of their countrymen and women is necessary. I'm afraid I would have to discount those opinions as well. Does that damage my credibility?
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Murdering and torturing is against international law, so it's not subjective. Discounting those opinions won't damage your credibility.

PzR Slim
I discount his opinion because he holds that opinion whilst finding every possible way to criticise FM. The double standards he employs are some of the biggest that can be found in this discussion. I have good reason for discounting his opinion. He is fully entitled to his opinions by all means. However, by holding such opinions he can't expect his views to hold any weight when they are so far out of the accepted norm by the majority of posters from both sides of the debate.
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Is there something wrong with finding every possible way to criticize FM? From what I've seen in this thread it's the accepted norm by the majority of posters to do so with GT. Ain't that double standards?
Everybody is completely free to criticize both series, as long as the discussion stays within the AUP and Scaff's rules in the opening post. The mods will take action when they feel necessary.
If you feel you can't discuss properly with a certain member, it's better to ignore the person instead of stating in public that you discount his or her opinion.
 
Hugo Boss
Murdering and torturing is against international law, so it's not subjective. Discounting those opinions won't damage your credibility.



Is there something wrong with finding every possible way to criticize FM? From what I've seen in this thread it's the accepted norm by the majority of posters to do so with GT. Ain't that double standards?
Everybody is completely free to criticize both series, as long as the discussion stays within the AUP and Scaff's rules in the opening post. The mods will take action when they feel necessary.
If you feel you can't discuss properly with a certain member, it's better to ignore the person instead of stating in public that you discount his or her opinion.
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It may be against international law but it is subjective (pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual), you claimed because an opinion is subjective, it loses your credibility to discount one. However, as I have shown that is not necessarily true.

It's not the finding every possible fault with FM I find wrong. It's then not applying the same logic to GT5 and glossing over the glaring faults with it that I find so annoying. As I said the incredible double standards that he exhibits are the reason I discount his opinion. I find fault with GT5 but I also find fault with FM and I communicate that. I would also find it wrong if people would not admit to FM's fault yet heavily criticise GT5, check my posting history in this thread and you will see that I have done and commented on it.

And why ignore someone when you find their methods of debating to be wrong. I would rather be open and honest with those I debate with. As long as I am not rude or insulting in my dealings with any person why does it matter what I say.
 

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