FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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Watt2159
3 and 4, I just dreaded the physics in those two, but it seemed that Forza 2 had the best physics overall, it was balanced, and it reminded me a little of PGR4's physics, and then on 3, it was basically Forza 2 on meth, and it got worse in FM4, yes I know that FR's get oversteer, I own a FR in real life, I've taken it to a track, but in real life, its wasn't as bad as the cars emulated in FM3, and 4, they'll oversteer if you so much as even look at the throttle the wrong way, its like the cars have either too much weight, or inertia, and yes I know that not every Forza fan is uptight, but it seems that most of the ones I've ran into, are, I'm not trying to offend anyone on here, but I was getting sick of going online, or to their message boards, and hearing nothing but trash talk on other racing games, and all who play them, maybe its gotten better over time, but back in FM3, and I will stand by this %100, it was always "Forza, or go 🤬 yourself"
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You appear to be bringing baggage from other forums and boards and using them as a standard by which to measure Forza fans here at GT Planet.

I would respectfully ask that you try and leave your preconceptions behind and start from afresh in that regard and treat us as exactly what we car car/motorsport fans who for the most part play both GT and FM.

Now back to the point you raised and I have to be honest its not one that I can agree with (and I do have a fair amount of track and proving ground experience), yes the FR's will all oversteer of pushed but I wouldn't describe it as overdone (in FM4) at all; and particularly not in comparisons to GT5 which is a bigger offender in this area (looking at the Cobra again).

I find the break away of tyre grip and the transition to be better modeled in FM4, and as a result for me its easier to judge when oversteer is going to occur and whats required to counter it (or increase it if I want to have a bit of fun).

A good number of the FR cars in FM4 will also initially understeer before transitioning to oversteer, and require a reasonable degree of brute force to get them to do so. Which is something I rarely find in GT5.

What does surprise me a little is that you use PGR4 as a benchmark, now don't get me wrong I still have my copy of it and its a great title. However it is firmly at the arcade end of the physics model scale.
 
Watt2159
3 and 4, I just dreaded the physics in those two, but it seemed that Forza 2 had the best physics overall, it was balanced, and it reminded me a little of PGR4's physics, and then on 3, it was basically Forza 2 on meth, and it got worse in FM4, yes I know that FR's get oversteer, I own a FR in real life, I've taken it to a track, but in real life, its wasn't as bad as the cars emulated in FM3, and 4, they'll oversteer if you so much as even look at the throttle the wrong way, its like the cars have either too much weight, or inertia, and yes I know that not every Forza fan is uptight, but it seems that most of the ones I've ran into, are, I'm not trying to offend anyone on here, but I was getting sick of going online, or to their message boards, and hearing nothing but trash talk on other racing games, and all who play them, maybe its gotten better over time, but back in FM3, and I will stand by this %100, it was always "Forza, or go 🤬 yourself"
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I agree on the physics parts in both of your posts. Don't know about the fanbase, and I don't really care tbh.

But back to physics: I don't know if the ones praising forza's physics play some kind of other version of the game or something, but I was trying to test the differences in FM(4) and GT5 just yesterday doing the following:

After seeing an old video where they were Testing a '71 Challenger in another thread here on GTP , I took a '70 Challenger left it all in stock condition except for changing the stock tires from sports hard to comfort middle (later used c/h) took it for a spin at Indy Road. Although body roll is visually almost non existend in GT5 the weight balance seemed properly, it gave me a feeling that I'm really actually moving a 1.8 tonne weighing muscle car. Negative about it was the stock transmission not allowing the car to go faster than 183kph due to the rev limiter wich GT is simulating matching the instruments in the car.

That brings me to Forza, this time I took the same car on the same track, although it didn't look like Indy but thats another story, first difference I noticed (the sound, yeah that one goes to Forza, no doubt) the car beginns to slide when accelerating (in GT only happens with worn out tires) thats realistic since tires are still 'cold' but when they warmen up those FM4 street tires (don't know if they are called that, well the less grippy tires you can choose in this game) feel like slicks after the time I spent before on comforts in GT. I rembered the video I mentioned and thought, no way those are simulating the cars real stock tires. Sorry but big point to GT5.

Next thing I didnt like was the transmission, it was set way too large, probably so that the player won't get upset because the car only goes 110mph they also set the rev limiter way to high, in this car you change gear at 5400rpm (also mentioned in the video) in Forza it goes up to around 7000! Engine would've blown up before you reach the final gear IRL. Realism point to GT5.

Body roll visually is much better on Forza but feel of weigh transfer is a mess. Braking I compared GT5-No ABS Brake Balance 2 front 1 back to Forza-No ABS and no further action so I can't say wich one is better, but breaking in general , in Forza feels weird, like WATT explained it.

Before anyone asks I used no aid and set everything to realistic/simulation used a G27 on GT and pad on FM
 
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Scaff
A good number of the FR cars in FM4 will also initially understeer before transitioning to oversteer, and require a reasonable degree of brute force to get them to do so. Which is something I rarely find in GT5.
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Exactly, you have to turn the thing so hard that when it actually starts to turn it breaks around too far. Sometimes you have to loosen a car up to get it to stop being loose.

And if you look at the tach in the muscle cars, they only go to about 5, but FM4 allows you to rev way higher than that. (Although there really isn't a point as the power drops off so much.)
 
Flaco13
Next thing I didnt like was the transmission, it was set way too large, probably so that the player won't get upset because the car only goes 110mph they also set the rev limiter way to high, in this car you change gear at 5400rpm (also mentioned in the video) in Forza it goes up to around 7000! Engine would've blown up before you reach the final gear IRL. Realism point to GT5.
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There are many cars in GT5 where the engine redline is set wrong; including a handful of Premium cars (like the butchered Premium Mustang GT) and a handful of muscle cars (off the top of my head, the 440 Barracuda revs to 7k RPM).
 
Flaco13
...
Before anyone asks I used no aid and set everything to realistic/simulation used a G27 on GT and pad on FM
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That's not like for like comparison. In both games when a pad is used, the game tosses in some assists especially for steering.
 
Toronado
There are many cars in GT5 where the engine redline is set wrong; including a handful of Premium cars (like the butchered Premium Mustang GT) and a handful of muscle cars (off the top of my head, the 440 Barracuda revs to 7k RPM).
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Ok, but I tested a Challenger so I can only speak of that one, good to know though, thank you for the info
edit: Cuda 440 Red line starts at 6k and limiter jumps in at 6500rpm, i dont know if it matches the real one or not but it seems legit, IRL you'd probably change gear at 5200 - 5600, just a guess tho

cuco33
That's not like for like comparison. In both games when a pad is used, the game tosses in some assists especially for steering.
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I knew this would come, of course its not like for a really detailed comparison but it wasn't my intention to do so. It's not that I did it to prove something to anybody. It was merely coinsidence that I did that and read the guys post the next day and found it a matching point to cover. I know how physics feel with a wheel on Forza since a friend of mine has a CSR-E and I'm over at his place quite often, so I know that anything I experienced with the pad there I would've experienced with a wheel aswell. I don't doubt what you said about the assists whilst using the pad. Well next time I'm around at my friend's house I'll re-do those laps on Indy with the CSR-E (Taped the replay with my phone) so I can compare, but I doubt anything changes from the core point in my previous post.

Scaff
A good number of the FR cars in FM4 will also initially understeer before transitioning to oversteer, and require a reasonable degree of brute force to get them to do so. Which is something I rarely find in GT5.
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Not hard to explain why this is so, GT5 has the rear toe ancles set to 0.20 wich is unrealistic for a street car and it causes oversteering. Get a fully custom suspension set spring rates back to how they are in the stock suspension and everything else down to 1 (dampers etc) and set toe to 0.00!
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For any game that wants to be a sim those specs should be more detailed and match the RL counterfeits (suspension works, gear settings, rev limiters etc.)... both franchises need improvements there IMO.
 
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Flaco13
Ok, but I tested a Challenger so I can only speak of that one, good to know though, thank you for the info
edit: Cuda 440 Red line starts at 6k and limiter jumps in at 6500rpm, i dont know if it matches the real one or not but it seems legit, IRL you'd probably change gear at 5200 - 5600, just a guess tho
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Would you be able to provide a link to that video as I would like to do some testing on this myself.

Thanks



Flaco13
Not hard to explain why this is so, GT5 has the rear toe ancles set to 0.20 wich is unrealistic for a street car and it causes oversteering. Get a fully custom suspension set spring rates back to how they are in the stock suspension and everything else down to 1 (dampers etc) and set toe to 0.00!
-
For any game that wants to be a sim those specs should be more detailed and match the RL counterfeits (suspension works, gear settings, rev limiters etc.)... both franchises need improvements there IMO.
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The problem is that simply changing the suspension setting (which it could be argued you shouldn't have to do) doesn't solve the problem.

A large part of the issue in this area is down to GT5's suspension and tyre model and the manner in which cars (particularly those with more basic suspension and higher profile tyres) transition from grip to a loss of grip. In a nutshell its just far to abrupt.
 
Flaco13
I knew this would come, of course its not like for a really detailed comparison but it wasn't my intention to do so. It's not that I did it to prove something to anybody. It was merely coinsidence that I did that and read the guys post the next day and found it a matching point to cover. I know how physics feel with a wheel on Forza since a friend of mine has a CSR-E and I'm over at his place quite often, so I know that anything I experienced with the pad there I would've experienced with a wheel aswell. I don't doubt what you said about the assists whilst using the pad. Well next time I'm around at my friend's house I'll re-do those laps on Indy with the CSR-E (Taped the replay with my phone) so I can compare, but I doubt anything changes from the core point in my previous post.
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I can see similarities between wheel vs pad and can see how a game handles things with pad vs pad or wheel vs wheel (I have a CSR wheel + CSR-Elite peddles) and be able judge physics engine but if you go wheel vs pad you're going to slant towards the wheel based on better immersive feeling. With a pad though you get steering assists which can help you quite a lot. In your example it'd probably be better if you uploaded the video with telemetry on when using the CSR-E. Personally I think both games feel real enough to be called sims and both games aren't perfect but do quite a good job. I think comparing both games, personally, FM4 feels more realistic than GT5. Something about GT5 I can hammer cars into corners or recover from losing it a lot easier than in Forza, and that's not just related to what tire compound is on the car. I've tried like for like comparisons with both pad vs pad and wheel vs wheel on the same track using the same car, and my findings so far have been that GT5 on the norm feels easier to drive while I can struggle a bit more with FM4 when pushing the car to the limits. One of my most thorough comparisons was using a Challenger spec'd out the same way on Laguna Seca and driving it in GT5 on comfort hard tires was less of a challenge than in FM4 on racing slicks (only tires were changed). Lap times also showed me something like 5sec faster in GT5 on CH than in FM4 on racing slicks!!

Nothing against you flaco but I hear way too many times on this gtp site about how people know things because a friend or a friend of a friend or a friend of a friend's uncle's next door neighbor has game X or peripheral Y. I too have my own experiences like these with different hardware and games that friends have so don't get offended if I come off a bit not believing in someone who's got friends fortunate enough to have a console/game/hardware.
 
Scaff
Would you be able to provide a link to that video as I would like to do some testing on this myself.

Thanks
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Sure

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7621109#post7621109



@cuco33: So because I don't own a Wheel working properly on a Xbox I'm in no place to judge? I don't care you belive me or not and I agree that many in here pretend things that aren't true, but this last part of your post sounded a bit arrogant.
 
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Flaco13
Sure


@cuco33: So because I don't own a Wheel working properly on a Xbox I'm in no place to judge? I don't care you belive me or not and I agree that many in here pretend things that aren't true, but this last part of your post sounded a bit arrogant.
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Well, I've just been back to backing the 70' Challenger RT on the top gear test track in GT5 and FM4 using a Fanatec CSR / CSPs.

I did try and match the tyres as best you can, Comfort Mediums do indeed feel close enough in both games...

I'd rather not go into critiquing each game, but all I wanted to say is that the claim the 70 challenger doesn't give the same impression of weight as GT5 is massively wrong, in terms of pure body weight transfer, both give a similar feeling..
In fact, if you go and appraise the tyre physics in relation to how the weight transfer affects the cars, things fall apart for GT5..

It's so easy to just go in with prejudice and use a pad and imagine a game is bad (like driving in chase cam is useless for analysing physics from video), but believe me, from a person who gets the most out of all games on all platforms, when you back to back them multiple times on the same car/track with the exact same racing rig setup, it's quite obvious where each game scores highly and when it needs more work..
 
phil-t
Well, I've just been back to backing the 70' Challenger RT on the top gear test track in GT5 and FM4 using a Fanatec CSR / CSPs.

I did try and match the tyres as best you can, Comfort Mediums do indeed feel close enough in both games...

I'd rather not go into critiquing each game, but all I wanted to say is that the claim the 70 challenger doesn't give the same impression of weight as GT5 is massively wrong, in terms of pure body weight transfer, both give a similar feeling..
In fact, if you go and appraise the tyre physics in relation to how the weight transfer affects the cars, things fall apart for GT5..

It's so easy to just go in with prejudice and use a pad and imagine a game is bad (like driving in chase cam is useless for analysing physics from video), but believe me, from a person who gets the most out of all games on all platforms, when you back to back them multiple times on the same car/track with the exact same racing rig setup, it's quite obvious where each game scores highly and when it needs more work..
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It seems like I gave the impression on loving one, and hating the other franchise... sorry about that. I didn't intend to do so, I play both games. Ok GT since the first title and FM only starting with FM4, but I'm really not prejudice but trying to be true and fair when expressing my opinions, yet if they differ from other peoples opinions... well it's mine not theirs.
 
Flaco13
@cuco33: So because I don't own a Wheel working properly on a Xbox I'm in no place to judge? I don't care you belive me or not and I agree that many in here pretend things that aren't true, but this last part of your post sounded a bit arrogant.
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Whoa, calm down man! I told you it wasn't calling you out as some liar or anything. It's just your method of comparison is quite unfair due to the differences in user inputs. Throttle/brake might be one thing but steering is going to be very different between a pad and a wheel. Factor in how pads get assists with them and you aren't doing a like for like comparison. Had you stated a pad vs pad comparison then it'd be more sound, albeit not the best because of the steering assists both games have with pads. You'd still be able to judge the physics engines much better but 1 game being wheel driven while the other being pad driven is quite a big variable in my book.

Whenever I do game vs game comparisons I do so with the least amount of variables and differences. In racing games like FM or GT I do pad vs pad AND wheel vs wheel. In my Laguna Seca like for like comparisons, as one of many examples, I noticed the track differences between the 2 games the most and how the physics engine in FM4 was harder to deal with. It felt more real to me and it was much harder to control a mishap. That's not saying GT5 is arcadey, I just found it to be much easier. Even my lap times made me wonder why so much difference as I was on the norm about 5 seconds difference in lap times. FM4 on racing slicks was much harder to control than GT5 was on CH, and I was still much faster in GT5 on CH than in FM4 on racing slicks. It could even be that both games take the car data differently but I did my testing to eliminate any variable I could. Same car with same weight and power, same no assists on, same track, etc. I only took 1 extra step by messing around with the tire compounds. I left everything stock as how the game gave it to you via default, not even adjusting tire pressures in FM4.

Phil-t, it wasn't the 70s challenger. It was the newer one. I had to do an oil change in GT5 to get the power up to where it should be and then power limited it back like a small percentage to be exactly the same as FM4's power spec for the same car.
Come to think of it, I don't think it was the Challenger at all... I think it was the CHARGER. I always mix up the names of these two cars lol. Have it written down at home though
 
cuco33
Whoa, calm down man! I told you it wasn't calling you out as some liar or anything. It's just your method of comparison is quite unfair due to the differences in user inputs. Throttle/brake might be one thing but steering is going to be very different between a pad and a wheel. Factor in how pads get assists with them and you aren't doing a like for like comparison. Had you stated a pad vs pad comparison then it'd be more sound, albeit not the best because of the steering assists both games have with pads. You'd still be able to judge the physics engines much better but 1 game being wheel driven while the other being pad driven is quite a big variable in my book.

Whenever I do game vs game comparisons I do so with the least amount of variables and differences. In racing games like FM or GT I do pad vs pad AND wheel vs wheel. In my Laguna Seca like for like comparisons, as one of many examples, I noticed the track differences between the 2 games the most and how the physics engine in FM4 was harder to deal with. It felt more real to me and it was much harder to control a mishap. That's not saying GT5 is arcadey, I just found it to be much easier. Even my lap times made me wonder why so much difference as I was on the norm about 5 seconds difference in lap times. FM4 on racing slicks was much harder to control than GT5 was on CH, and I was still much faster in GT5 on CH than in FM4 on racing slicks. It could even be that both games take the car data differently but I did my testing to eliminate any variable I could. Same car with same weight and power, same no assists on, same track, etc. I only took 1 extra step by messing around with the tire compounds. I left everything stock as how the game gave it to you via default, not even adjusting tire pressures in FM4.

Phil-t, it wasn't the 70s challenger. It was the newer one. I had to do an oil change in GT5 to get the power up to where it should be and then power limited it back like a small percentage to be exactly the same as FM4's power spec for the same car.
Come to think of it, I don't think it was the Challenger at all... I think it was the CHARGER. I always mix up the names of these two cars lol. Have it written down at home though
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I am calm, I just say what I think and I found the part of your post sounding a bit arrogant, no big deal. Maybe you didn't mean it to sound that way, to me it did. enough now.

My way of comparing doesn't differ from yours, as for in-game settings, I too disable all assists, took CH tires etc. And I did post the hardware I used right away. Because I thought that it would've been clear that when I say I use a pad I might aswell have wheel experience but not the correct wheel at hand, that's why I mentioned the G27 in the first place. My bad I guess.

While you talk mostly about steering I, in my initial post was more about braking and accelerating, I didn't mention very much if not nothing about steering behaviours.

Well I can, and did use a DS3 for a more 'likely comparision' in your sense many times. Thing is, the 'hidden' assists are just much stronger in GT5 and you can't turn them off, in Forza however you can.
Steering put to simulation affects the Xboks pad just like it does to a wheel.

Another problem is the buttons. I use R2 to brake, configurations in FM won't let me do that, using the RT button I mean. But I can't just switch back using the stick on the DS3 pad.

So I did it the way I personally thought was likely enough and use what I had at hand, now excuse me but I have to ask again... does this pull me out of position to judge or post my personal results from my comparision?
 
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Did anyone ever say it pulled you of or position to judge or post? Nope. I just questioned your post because you weren't doing like for like and had a major variable in there where 1 game was with a pad and the other was with a wheel. Whenever doing like for like comparisons/testing you need to eliminate any and all possible variables, in your case the input method was completely different. That's all I was getting at.
 
cuco33
Did anyone ever say it pulled you of or position to judge or post? Nope. I just questioned your post because you weren't doing like for like and had a major variable in there where 1 game was with a pad and the other was with a wheel. Whenever doing like for like comparisons/testing you need to eliminate any and all possible variables, in your case the input method was completely different. That's all I was getting at.
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Agreed... Like when i was doing a comparison i used a wheel on both. You can't really estimate anything with your comparison if you don't have matching or even a close match while trying to compare.

I agree his comparison isn't valid
 
cuco33
Did anyone ever say it pulled you of or position to judge or post? Nope. I just questioned your post because you weren't doing like for like and had a major variable in there where 1 game was with a pad and the other was with a wheel. Whenever doing like for like comparisons/testing you need to eliminate any and all possible variables, in your case the input method was completely different. That's all I was getting at.
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Well I was trying to explain as for why I did it that way...

@Scaff: If you want to, you may delete my last 3-4 posts. Since they are not valid. Thank you.
 
Playing one game with a pad and the other with a wheel is like playing one game on a 52 '' Full HD TV and the other on a 18'' CRT. I suppose that a lot of people would be pretty annoyed if I were to make a post that claims that GT5 looks horrible, if I was also mentioning that I played that on a crappy, small CRT TV and compared it to what FM4 looks like on a huge top notch HD TV.

I just wanted to post these (ripped these off of the FM.net forums):
8081696835_fd94430d8d_z.jpg

8081726815_5856e82669_z.jpg

8081778779_052fe8e6ff_z.jpg
 
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The graphical detail in GT5s interiors is very impressive but the only reason They can put that amount of detail into the cars is because every where else they haven't bothered. The track textures, trees, grass are all super low rez.
 
emula
by by forza
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From the opening post (that you should have read before posting):

Don't just post up pictures and video without any form of meaningful comment. This is a discussion thread not a picture/video gallery. Offending posts will be deleted on sight.

Do not do this again.
 
I'm just as guilty of posting only pictures, but I do hope that the 'sly' smiley at the end somewhat got the message I wanted to convey across. I'm sorry if it didn't.
 
Luminis
I'm just as guilty of posting only pictures, but I do hope that the 'sly' smiley at the end somewhat got the message I wanted to convey across. I'm sorry if it didn't.
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I must have missed them in the wall of pictures above them, however the same point does apply (but at the very least you managed to limit it to two pictures).
 
I also believe the interiors in autovista are higher quality it would be good if this was the standard in future games for on track detail.
 
Woah looking at them GT interiors never gets boring. You can see where they focused a lot of there resources.

Credit where it's due.

I seem to remember the Lotus Elise looking poor though. Sort of a Vaseline sheen on the dials. Can't think of a better way to put it. It may be patched out now.
 
Spagetti69
Woah looking at them GT interiors never gets boring. You can see where they focused a lot of there resources.
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Makes it all the more bizarre that neither game gives you an official way to look at the interiors of the cars properly.
 
SimonK
Makes it all the more bizarre that neither game gives you an official way to look at the interiors of the cars properly.
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One of my biggest problems with both; I understand why developers are apprehensive about letting us inside the cars, as certain parts might not hold up to scrutinizing as much as the exteriors (and I suppose it's a bit hard to move around), but you shouldn't boast about the well-designed interiors and then not give us an easy way to appreciate them past the look-around buttons while racing.

Thankfully, FM4's interior glitch is easier to access than GT5's :P
 

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