2010 Korean Grand Prix

[Ardius]

No - that would make them World Champion, not world champion. Neither is a world champion driver - Vettel stands more of a chance to grow into one than Webber - whether or not they become World Champion at the end of this season.

No, he isn't. But, like Gilles, everyone is always very surprised to learn he wasn't ever one.

Think of the difference being like that between Tiger Woods, Colin Montgomerie and Paul Casey. Or like that between Pete Sampras, Tim Henman and Richard Krajicek.
No-one would argue that any of those three men in each group cannot beat any of the others at any given time - they did, often. None are the lesser or greater player. But the first in the group has won a Major/Grand Slam, the second has not despite the opportunity and the third has but no-one's quite sure how.

The thing with Stirling and Gilles is that they are legends because of their fellow driver's comments and their great potential/success. People are surprised purely because people go on about how good they were that other people assume they were World Champions at some point. This is just poor assumptions, and nothing to do with how good such people thought they were, only how good those that originally saw Stirling or Gilles thought they were.
But this doesn't make them World Champions. To be World Champion you have to score more points and hence beat everyone in a single season. Whether a driver achieves this means that he is a brilliant driver or not is for your own opinion but they are World Champion. Its nothing to do with your success or your potential. Nor has it anything to do with popularity.

Being a "World Champion" is a factual statistic. Your made-up adjective version is not facts but opinion. I understand what you are saying but I am saying its a silly way of referring to drivers' abilities as its just confusing.

Ardius,man i do understand what you say...and i do feel the same about safety.....
But mate ....i mean really,is this about a show or is this about the best driving men in the world....seriously!!!!!

Offcourse nobody wants to see havy crashes where someone gets hurt,but look for example at what happened with Webber in Valencia....


Man this is FORMULA1 racing....not the Renault clio cup at Silverstone or something simular....

If you are the best -team-driver- in the world,you must be it at all times....that means you have the BALLS to do it...and this counts also for the people who(C.Whiting)regulate it....

IT IS FORMULA1....HAVE SOME ******ING BALLS....

spy.

No, you don't understand what I am saying. Driving in potentially aquaplaning conditions is not about having "balls". Do you even know what aquaplaning is?
I'm sure you understand what "zero visibility" means?

Go drive your car blindfolded on some ice at 100mph around some corners, is that having balls? No, its just plain stupid.

Fortunately for the drivers, it wasn't so much standing water that aquaplaining occured so much, but from their view from the cockpit, they could see a lot of standing water and very little of their braking points and other cars ahead. This is quite unique and very scary for the drivers as for all they know they could hit anything completely out of control - completely out of their skills to drive the car. You don't drive a car when it aquaplanes, you sit in it.

Should Charlie have ignored what the drivers were saying and started anyway? Well, like I said, its a difficult position for him. Its his responsibility if he let them race into a huge accident. He has to ensure that conditions are safe to race and the drivers are normally in the best position to comment on that.

I don't know why Hamilton was the only one to be wanting to race, maybe he was the only one to ignore the standing water and actually notice the grip (probably not, seeing as Button later commented that it was weird how there was grip on standing water) or maybe he wasn't considering the guys at the back of the pack having less visibility than him. Hamilton definitely had a bit of bias considering it would benefit him over Red Bull....

There were 20 drivers out there who didn't have a bias though as far as the championship was concerned...and they all said it was too dangerous. I'm more inclined to believe the drivers sitting there driving the cars and so was Charlie it seems.

I'll repeat - best drivers mean absolutely nothing in a car that is aquaplaning. You are a complete passenger.
Best drivers also mean nothing in zero visibility conditions. All it takes is one car to hit a wall and spin onto the racing line and no one can see them.

For reference, this is what could happen:

 

[Famine]

In the same way that being an England player just requires you to play for England. And then there's Rob Green.

Will Vettel/Webber deserve the world championship if they win it? Yes - they'll have more points than anyone else. But look at it another way. You have a brand new car that's awesomequick. You have free choice of any driver-pairing on the grid and you can pay them whatever they want. Which two drivers will you pick? Exactly.

 

[Ardius]

Yes but that has nothing to do with calling them "World Champions" or otherwise.
It has everything to do with opinions on talent, which I can describe without referring to their potential for World Championships using some arbitrary adjective.

 

[Small_Fryz]

In the same way that being an England player just requires you to play for England. And then there's Rob Green.

Will Vettel/Webber deserve the world championship if they win it? Yes - they'll have more points than anyone else. But look at it another way. You have a brand new car that's awesomequick. You have free choice of any driver-pairing on the grid and you can pay them whatever they want. Which two drivers will you pick? Exactly.

Vettel / Alonso?

 

[Famine]

Yes but that has nothing to do with calling them "World Champions" or otherwise.
It has everything to do with opinions on talent, which I can describe without referring to their potential for World Championships using some arbitrary adjective.

I defy anyone to say that Vettel, Webber, Alonso, Hamilton, Button, Kubica or Schumacher are not the very best and the most talented drivers on the grid. It has nothing to do with ability, talent, speed, carcraft, race brains or any other factor. It has everything to do with world champion-ness.

I'm willing to bet that neither Vettel nor Webber wins the WDC this year, because neither is a world champion and neither will take the step up to World Champion.

Of course, that leaves just Alonso and Hamilton as the remaining potential WDC - which meets with a big, fat "meh" in my book.

Vettel / Alonso?

Would that change if Webber were to be champion this year?

 

[Small_Fryz]

I defy anyone to say that Vettel, Webber, Alonso, Hamilton, Button, Kubica or Schumacher are not the very best and the most talented drivers on the grid. It has nothing to do with ability, talent, speed, carcraft, race brains or any other factor. It has everything to do with world champion-ness.

I'm willing to bet that neither Vettel nor Webber wins the WDC this year, because neither is a world champion and neither will take the step up to World Champion.

Of course, that leaves just Alonso and Hamilton as the remaining potential WDC - which meets with a big, fat "meh" in my book.



Would that change if Webber were to be champion this year?

No, Webber isnt as fast as Vettel or Alonso. Id almost think about giving schumacher a go too.. but I just dont think he has those last few tenths like he used to.

 

[Terronium-12]

Famine, is there any hope at all?

If by "hope" you're referring to some tragic occurence that's resulted from me having never heard of someone, then no, there's no hope.

Do you by any chance know of Sachin Tendulkar or Shane Warne?

No, and no.

Im just trying to find out how you could possibly not even know Pete Sampras. Hell even I know who Wayne Gretzky is and ive never even watched an Ice hockey game in my life.

I also know who Gretzky is, what's the point here exactly? I never knew of O.J. Simpson until that trial took place - does that make me a bad person or something like that? If I don't know you, then I just don't know you.

 

[Ardius]

I defy anyone to say that Vettel, Webber, Alonso, Hamilton, Button, Kubica or Schumacher are not the very best and the most talented drivers on the grid. It has nothing to do with ability, talent, speed, carcraft, race brains or any other factor. It has everything to do with world champion-ness.

I'm willing to bet that neither Vettel nor Webber wins the WDC this year, because neither is a world champion and neither will take the step up to World Champion.

Of course, that leaves just Alonso and Hamilton as the remaining potential WDC - which meets with a big, fat "meh" in my book.

Would that change if Webber were to be champion this year?

Ok, Schumacher is no longer the best and most talented driver on the grid. How easy was that? I didn't even refer to his championships.

Hamilton has only won 1 World Championship, yet I would say he is the best driver on the grid alongside Alonso and Kubica. The point is if you are good enough, generally you do achieve World Championships, but there is no guarantee you will. Kubica has yet to achieve one, and he may well never achieve a championship. Whether you think this is only because he has never been given the chance is your opinion, but not a fact.
Sure, achieving or getting close to a World Championship helps determine talent. But it isn't the only reason you rate someone highly.

To answer the question, I would probably have a Hamilton/Kubica partnership as it has the most potential for long-term future success as long as I have an Adrian Newey car. Alonso is slightly older than these two and may not hang around forever.

That said, I would happily take a team of Vettel/Webber if they were the only one available. I would try to manage them a lot differently than Red Bull/Christian Horner has though. Of course you want a team with drivers who have already proven they can win a World Championship but that means less and less if its someone like Schumacher...
I'd probably take a pairing of Vettel/Kubica over Schumacher/Alonso or Webber.

 

[Danny]

I defy anyone to say that Vettel, Webber, Alonso, Hamilton, Button, Kubica or Schumacher are not the very best and the most talented drivers on the grid. It has nothing to do with ability, talent, speed, carcraft, race brains or any other factor. It has everything to do with world champion-ness.

Oh, I'm not so sure. Put Rosberg, Hülkenberg and Kobayashi in a top car for a few practice runs and we'll talk.

Of course, that leaves just Alonso and Hamilton as the remaining potential WDC - which meets with a big, fat "meh" in my book.

Would that change if Webber were to be champion this year?

Whoever takes the championship at this point will have worked for it. All contenders have worked hard, despite the obvious performance advantage RBR have had. It's funny reading through this thread and hearing the crap being spouted about who does and doesn't deserve it. Are we the moral judges now? None of them have had an easy ride to this point.

But anyway, I can't see Red Bull changing drivers for another 1, possibly two years. Alonso's still contracted to Ferrari for another 2 seasons, which I'm sure both he and the team will honour, owing the liklihood of RBR sticking to their guns with the drivers. The only top-tier team change I can forsee would be McLaren dropping Button like yesterday's jam. But who'd take that spot? I'd say one of the current Mercedes drivers, though I'd love to see Kubica given a shot (much as it would pain me to see Renault losing a brilliant driver).

 

[Ardius]

Why would McLaren drop Button? He has matched Hamilton far more often than Kovalainen did and he has brought his own race victories to the team. He has also helped them in the battle for the Constructors immensely, by finishing where Hamilton hasn't. He's actually done better than Coulthard did against Hakkinen/Raikkonen as well.

Button has actually been even more impressive this year than last. Even I didn't think he would keep up with Hamilton so much.

I'd go far as saying McLaren would be mad to drop Button. Easily the strongest driver pairing this year.

 

[TheCracker]

Why would McLaren drop Button? He has matched Hamilton far more often than Kovalainen did and he has brought his own race victories to the team. He has also helped them in the battle for the Constructors immensely, by finishing where Hamilton hasn't. He's actually done better than Coulthard did against Hakkinen/Raikkonen as well.

Button has actually been even more impressive this year than last. Even I didn't think he would keep up with Hamilton so much.

I'd go far as saying McLaren would be mad to drop Button. Easily the strongest driver pairing this year.

He's also technically still in with a shot of the drivers championship with only 2 of the 19 races left to go.

 

[Omnis]

Dude, I'm 23 and have no idea who Pete Sempras is. Then again, I don't care much for golf, so it's really of no surprise. Only reason I've ever heard Tiger Woods' name is because of that whole thing with his wife, or whatever.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I already posted in this thread to defend Rosberg (Keke). I will now do it to speak about Rosberg (Nico) .


I see a trend here setting a sort of drivers ranking. According to it you have:

1. Alonso and Hamilton are clearly the best out there

2. Kubica, Button and Vettel are up there also, but not by unanimous vote.

3. Then there's Webber.

A few more (almost) undisputed truths:

4. Massa lost it, or never had it

5. Schumacher lost it

6. Kobayashi has it


So, where's Nico Rosberg in all this? Well, people seem to simply forget he is there and only mention him as proof that Schumacher lost it. Because, if Schumacher was his oldself, he would "crush" Nico Rosberg.

Proof that Rosberg is usually forgotten? Well, did you see how Hamilton , the "rainmaster" overtook him in the opening laps of the Korean GP, in a very wet track? That's hardly mentioned in this thread, I guess people matter-of-factly assume Hamilton is a natural rain-overtaker.

... oh ...


.... wait

 

[Famine]

It's funny reading through this thread and hearing the crap being spouted about who does and doesn't deserve it.

Whoever wins it, deserves it. Just as Krajicek deserved his Wimbledon title, Trevor Immelman his Masters title and Rob Green his England caps. I don't think that Vettel or Webber have what it takes to step up and take it, despite their obvious abilities as drivers - they aren't wc and won't make WC.

 

[niky]

Pete Sampras. One of the least memorable tennis greats. Ever. Personality of a brick wall. Should've picked Andre Agassi.

I already posted in this thread to defend Rosberg (Keke). I will now do it to speak about Rosberg (Nico) .

Fair enough. I did actually see that overtake... thought it was pretty spectacular, actually... but then, there was a point when the McLarens both seemed set to slide to the back of the pack... both Merc drivers were good on raceday, actually.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Alonso's still contracted to Ferrari for another 2 seasons, which I'm sure both he and the team will honour, owing the liklihood of RBR sticking to their guns with the drivers.

Alonso said that when his time with Ferrari runs out, he will leave F1. He's not planning to go anywhere.

 

[granturismite]

to all those bagging Webber out because of his mistake, don't forget Alonso's mishap in Belgium. exactly the same situation. At least Mark didn't try to park his on the track to influence the race

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Bad luck for Mark that his mistake cost him; he's still in it though.

Too bad the race sucked initially! I fell asleep watching the cars follow the safety car; luckily I woke once racing actually started

That track appears to be a bad idea building on marshland; you can see the track is already settling unevenly , hence the bumps on a brand new circuit 👎

And that pit entrance by the 'renowned' Hermann Tilke is a mess 👎; lucky no accident in the rain.

Well done Alonso; Sutil drove like some F1 2010 game punter!

Go get'em in Brazil Mark 👍

 

[Alex.]

Sorry, hadn't seen them in the past few days so took a chance

 

[daan]

Post 494 of this very thread....

 

[Roo]

Fun Alonso fact: unless you count the brief shower of rain at the end of the 2007 European GP, this is the first wet race Fernando has won.

This has possibly already been mentioned, but there's too much well informed and reasoned debate for me to trawl through to find out.

 

[daan]

Fun and Alonso in the same sentence? Woo.

 

[Seismica]

I already posted in this thread to defend Rosberg (Keke). I will now do it to speak about Rosberg (Nico) .


I see a trend here setting a sort of drivers ranking. According to it you have:

1. Alonso and Hamilton are clearly the best out there

2. Kubica, Button and Vettel are up there also, but not by unanimous vote.

3. Then there's Webber.

A few more (almost) undisputed truths:

4. Massa lost it, or never had it

5. Schumacher lost it

6. Kobayashi has it


So, where's Nico Rosberg in all this? Well, people seem to simply forget he is there and only mention him as proof that Schumacher lost it. Because, if Schumacher was his oldself, he would "crush" Nico Rosberg.

Proof that Rosberg is usually forgotten? Well, did you see how Hamilton , the "rainmaster" overtook him in the opening laps of the Korean GP, in a very wet track? That's hardly mentioned in this thread, I guess people matter-of-factly assume Hamilton is a natural rain-overtaker.

... oh ...


.... wait

Rosberg has done very well this season. The Mercedes car has been horrible for most of the season. Hopefully they will have a more competitive car next season so we can truly see what Rosberg can do.

Besides, I think Kubica is probably among Hamilton and Alonso as one of the best. Put him in a competitive car (As in one that is actually developed over the season, yes i'm looking at you BMW...) and he'll take the championship.

Well done Alonso; Sutil drove like some F1 2010 game punter!

He has a grid penalty for the next race, and he blew any chance of points at this race. His dangerous driving caught up with him. Adrian Sutil; You are not Kamui Kobayashi, banzai overtakes are not your strong point.

 

[The Outlaw]

I already posted in this thread to defend Rosberg (Keke). I will now do it to speak about Rosberg (Nico) .


I see a trend here setting a sort of drivers ranking. According to it you have:

1. Alonso and Hamilton are clearly the best out there

2. Kubica, Button and Vettel are up there also, but not by unanimous vote.

3. Then there's Webber.

A few more (almost) undisputed truths:

4. Massa lost it, or never had it

5. Schumacher lost it

6. Kobayashi has it


So, where's Nico Rosberg in all this? Well, people seem to simply forget he is there and only mention him as proof that Schumacher lost it. Because, if Schumacher was his oldself, he would "crush" Nico Rosberg.

Proof that Rosberg is usually forgotten? Well, did you see how Hamilton , the "rainmaster" overtook him in the opening laps of the Korean GP, in a very wet track? That's hardly mentioned in this thread, I guess people matter-of-factly assume Hamilton is a natural rain-overtaker.

... oh ...


.... wait

I agree (not regarding Keke though ). Rosberg has been extremely impressive this year as well as looking like one of the most confident, laid back and relaxed guys on the grid (hard to believe he hasn't won a race yet ).

Not only has he soundly beat his 7x WDC team mate quite consistently, he has also bagged a good number of points, and could have potentially added a large chunk to his points tally had he not been taken out @ Korea by Webber (a race which he could have quite possibly won). I find it quite funny how Kubica (probably one of the most overrated drivers on the grid IMO - probably largely in part to his very impressive drive at Monaco in that R30 go kart) has been getting so much hype this year yet Rosberg has gotten very little. Heck, Rosberg is basically even with Kubica in points in a car which can't be said to be any better than the Renault. If anything the Mercedes was probably better at the start of the year and then Renault firmly overtook them around the middle of the year (Korea was a bit of an anomaly - although MB did bring some fairly big upgrades)

 

[JohnBM01]

The Korean Grand Prix was crazy. I think this track will probably be much better for if and when this track this track is raced again next season. This will probably give the track personnel and such a better chance to bring this track to better shape than what this race has shown. Maybe the track will be a bit more complete with more fancy stuff being built there (like that bridge and some of the other fancy facilities).

Still, I'm actually pleased with how the track came along as well as how the race unfolded. Full praise to Fernando Alonso on a job well done.

 

[Matti_Dude]

I find it quite funny how Kubica (probably one of the most overrated drivers on the grid IMO - probably largely in part to his very impressive drive at Monaco in that R30 go kart) has been getting so much hype this year yet Rosberg has gotten very little. Heck, Rosberg is basically even with Kubica in points in a car which can't be said to be any better than the Renault. If anything the Mercedes was probably better at the start of the year and then Renault firmly overtook them around the middle of the year (Korea was a bit of an anomaly - although MB did bring some fairly big upgrades)

I would say that Singapore was Kubica's best drive this season. For me he made that race exciting, he was overtaking in places that weren't regarded as overtaking oppurtunities, and yes I know he had fresher tyres but it was still very impressive. He also did really well at Suzuka, qualifying 3rd in the R30 and then getting in to 2nd by the first corner. If only his wheel didn't fall off he could have prevented RB getting their one-two. I am by no means a Kubica fan but I can easily see why he is such a highly rated driver.

 

[The Outlaw]

I agree he's a great driver. I just laugh when I see (usually on other forums) people rate him as the best driver on the grid when he has never really been paired up with any great talent nor has he won a WDC. Personally I feel the easy to drive nature and great performance of the R30 is one of the things that is making him look so good. Personally i feel (just my opinion) that if you put him in the Mclaren or even Ferrari (much more difficult cars to drive) I don't think he could touch Alonso or Hamilton (as I don't feel he has the finesse nor precision of those two - which is important in cars that can't be tossed around so much). That's why Renault need to get a quality driver in their seat for next year

 

[Matti_Dude]

Yeah he hasn't really been given a great team mate as of yet. It's hard to judge how good he is until he joins a top team or gets put against a very good team mate.

 

[Shaggy Alonso]

Proof that Rosberg is usually forgotten? Well, did you see how Hamilton , the "rainmaster" overtook him in the opening laps of the Korean GP, in a very wet track? That's hardly mentioned in this thread, I guess people matter-of-factly assume Hamilton is a natural rain-overtaker.

... oh ...


.... wait

Was interested to hear after the race that Mercedes completely altered the set up of the car when it was sat on the grid after the race had been red flagged to a full wet weather set up, and apparently no other team did this. I was surprised because it was as if parc ferme conditions only apply overnight, but not once the race is underway seemingly. This would go some way to explaining both Schumacher and Rosberg's pace before the latter got wiped out.

About Rosberg, I think he is forgotten because he does tend to have quieter races than most other drivers. He doesn't really have many standout, memorable performances in the same way as the perceived top drivers have had. I share Brundle's opinion of him, that he's definitely one of the best drivers on the grid and I thought he was one of the drivers of 2009, yet I remember how Autosport didn't rate him all that highly despite utterly decimating Nakajima his team mate and scoring all of Williams' points that season. Again, I think he was the victim of people just assuming his team mate is doing poorly rather than the possibility that Nico is just blowing their socks off. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

[Seismica]

Was interested to hear after the race that Mercedes completely altered the set up of the car when it was sat on the grid after the race had been red flagged to a full wet weather set up, and apparently no other team did this. I was surprised because it was as if parc ferme conditions only apply overnight, but not once the race is underway seemingly. This would go some way to explaining both Schumacher and Rosberg's pace before the latter got wiped out.

About Rosberg, I think he is forgotten because he does tend to have quieter races than most other drivers. He doesn't really have many standout, memorable performances in the same way as the perceived top drivers have had. I share Brundle's opinion of him, that he's definitely one of the best drivers on the grid and I thought he was one of the drivers of 2009, yet I remember how Autosport didn't rate him all that highly despite utterly decimating Nakajima his team mate and scoring all of Williams' points that season. Again, I think he was the victim of people just assuming his team mate is doing poorly rather than the possibility that Nico is just blowing their socks off. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

After it had been red-flagged?

I thought alterations to the setup of the car were not allowed once the car was sat on the grid (Other than tyres, which is understandeable considering that conditions can change). I guess I was wrong. But it would explain how the Mercedes had the pace to challenge for a podium place. It could have even been a race win for Rosberg if he'd have got past Webber unscathed. That's something to think about...