2010 Korean Grand Prix

[Terronium-12]

I don't think Webber or Vettel are world champions - regardless of whether they win the title or not (same as Massa). I think Alonso, Button, Schumacher and Hamilton all are world champions - regardless of whether they won the title or not. Quick examples: Sir Stirling is a world champion, but never won one. Jacques Villeneuve isn't a world champion, despite winning one.

Of course they deserve it if they finish the season with more points than anyone else and even if the car plays a huge part, the car isn't going to win squat unless it's driven by someone. The Red Bull car is certainly a championship-winning car though.

Ultimately if you put Schumacher or Button in a car, you can expect 100% of its performance 100% of the time, if you put Hamilton (or Kubica) in a car, you can expect 110% of its performance 90% of the time, if you put Alonso in a car, you can expect 101% of its performance 99% of the time. With Vettel and Webber, you can expect a crash caused by the driver 20% of the time, and 100% of its performance 90% of the remaining time. They're damned fast drivers. They're damned erratic drivers - Webber in particular has been plagued by a regular willingness to drive into someone else (and there are people claiming he deliberately allowed his car to scythe across the track today in the hope of taking Hamilton out - I don't agree with them, but I can see how they reached this conclusion). Alonso, Hamilton, Button and Schumacher you can depend on - they drive like world champions, rather than kids with something to prove, even if they may sometimes get a little dirty.

I don't think Vettel is world champion whether he wins it or not, mostly for the exact same reasons I've been saying all season long - the press (and even the team at times) attempts to pacify his blatant mistakes by exclaiming "Well, he's still a young driver with a lot to learn.", and I don't doubt that but, seriously, that excuse is going to be his own worse enemy. In fact, it may already be his own worse enemy - what happens if he does win the title this year? What happens if he makes the same mistakes under the same circumstances? Yes, he's been on a sprint this year but we all know how good of a driver he is when there's no one in contention for a win to overtake. I take absolutely nothing away from him, but throughout the entire season (save for the last few races of course) he's been a glorified poster boy; he makes a mistake - he'll learn, eventually. He makes another mistake - he'll learn, eventually.

Vettel may have better pace than Webber, but just as last year with Brawn (although not really comparable by a mile) Webber (just as Button did) has been far more consistent than Vettel in the long run, and Webber also doesn't fault under pressure. He's made a couple of mistakes this year but (as far as I know) he's owned up to all of them. Whereas RB has apparently taken it into their own hands to own up to Vettel's mishaps by placing the blame on his immaturity as a driver. Webber is a champion to me, although not as much as Rubens Barrichello...but I find he's definitely deserving of that title considering what he's capable of. Just as I think Ardius has said a few times, Vettel and Webber are their own worse enemies in terms of race craft.

 

[Shaggy Alonso]

If this forum gets any more closer to what the autosport forum is (meaning, it makes me dig through pages of fan-made-posts to find "normal" ones) it will truly become boring. Maybe Ardius could start another social group here, to allow easy access to unbiased opinions.

If Webber wins this title it will be entirely justified. He did amazing races this year, and his team mate is none other than the "wonder kid". I'd like to see how would Alonso, Hamilton and Kubica fare in such conditions (I just mention the guys everyone thinks are "the best" now).

Same to Alonso, I really do admire him, most of all his persistence, the fact that he never lost faith when everyone said he was already out of the title race, after his silly and totally unjustified mistake at Spa (note to Alonso fans: very similar to what Webber did today).

So, if the title is decided between these two guys, I really don't care which way it goes.

Now, just a few words for all those guys that think that Keke Rosberg didn't deserve the title he got. 1982 was a particularly sad year for me as a GV fan, and also Ferrari admirer. But I do remember perfectly the WONDER that was to behold Keke Rosberg driving his low powered - non-turbo - Williams. So, I will only say this. You just do not know what you are talking about.

I think the post above criticising people for being 2nd rate drivers is just a bad use of words, but I can understand what he means. Relatively speaking, Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and Kubica IMO are in a class of their own in Formula One. But barely anyone in F1 can be branded second rate. I went to Silverstone this year and watched from Stowe corner, but also went along Hangar straight, Maggots, Becketts and Copse. Watching these cars up close I can tell you, I began to realise that 'silky smooth' Button was having to man-handle his car as much as anyone else was - these cars are beasts and each and every driver deserves respect for being able to throw them into the corners in the way they do.

I remember this obnoxious tw@t in the campsite describing Yamamoto as being 'a ponce going through Maggots and Becketts'. Now usually it frustrates me when people use the argument of 'So you think you could you do better than them?' because that's never what anyone is implying when they criticise a sports person. But in the case of this idiot, honestly, just shut the hell up 👎

 

[Matti_Dude]

I pretty much agree with what Famine said, except for Button. I don't think Button is on par with Vettel, more so with Webber. Vettel is fast and has the talent, but he's too erratic at the moment and that is probably quite normal given his age. Webber on the other hand has been consistent enough all season (except today and Valencia which I believe are his only two DNF's) to keep himself in contention for the title. Last year Button got off to a flying start and was totally dominant in the superior Brawn, but he finished the second half of the season with some very average results and he was lucky enough to take the WDC.

Red Bull clearly have the fastest car and deserve the WCC. In terms of the WDC I would say Alonso or Hamilton deserve it because for the majority of the season they have been keeping up with the RB in slower cars. If it wasn't for Hamilton having so many misfortunes as of late I think he would be right up there near Alonso's tally but everybody has their ups and downs. I'd much rather see a better driver in a slower car take the WDC than either Webber or an erratic Vettel.

 

[The Outlaw]

What you said was Webber doesn't deserve to win the title. He is no more or less deserving than Hamilton or Alonso have been this year.

Actually, what I said is that I don't get off on seeing 2nd rate drivers winning titles and don't care if he loses it at this point, simply because I don't rate him amongst the strongest Champions in the sport atm (Hamilton & Alonso). I never directly or clearly said he doesn't deserve to win it as if he has the most points at the end of the season then that's that. If he does happen to win the title then he clearly deserves it (as the car is just as important to the equation as the driver) on the basis that he scored the most points, but no question he got lucky given the upperhand the RB6 has had throughout the season - but that's part of the sport.

. I'd much rather see a better driver in a slower car take the WDC than either Webber or an erratic Vettel.

Same here. I'm not that much of a fan of Lewis but respect his massive talent and abilities on track. I think it's quite clear that if either Alonso or Hamilton were in the RB they would have wrapped up the DC some time ago, when you take in account their current positions in the WDC in what have regularly been inferior machinery (minus a select few races)

 

[Famine]

You are World Champion if you secure the World Championship, what a daft definition, Famine.

Then perhaps I should demarcate them from proper nouns. Neither Webber nor Vettel are world champion drivers (as with Massa, Barrichello or Jacques Villeneuve) whether or not they are World Champion drivers.

Surely you could just say: Hamilton, Alonso, etc are great drivers whereas Vettel and Webber are merely good drivers. Why confuse things further with multiple definitions?

That does confuse things - Webber and Vettel have proven that they can win races just as much as Hamilton and Alonso can. They are no lesser ability drivers.

And for the record, Villenueve certainly is a World Champion/good driver. Its sad he is rarely noted for it. He is erratic just like Vettel and Webber but he has something else about him, a little like his father actually (or should I say a lot?). I like Villenueve's determination in certain respects, even if its usually blind determination.
Actually, I would probably say Webber is the new Villenueve. (though I don't like Webber so much). Villenueve's 96 season made him champion material in my opinion.

I agree - Villeneuve makes a great comparison for Webber in that neither are world champion drivers while winning races and getting points on the board. I doubt now that Webber can get the World Championship that Villeneuve did, but between Webber now and Jacques in 1997 driving my car, I'd take Webber.

 

[Kneedragger]

Quick examples: Sir Stirling is a world champion, but never won one. Jacques Villeneuve isn't a world champion, despite winning one.

Interesting.
The same is true in other sports, like the NFL, where a champion-class player gets drafted by a ho-hum team and spends years never seeing the playoffs. In racing the results can be so fickle, so seemingly random and also subject to rules changes, that its good to step back and see these men in more than one light, 'who won the championship.'

But its not as easy as you made it sound. What about Jacques dad then? You'll soon drift into simple personal opinion, even though theres truth in your original idea.

 

[Famine]

I was four when Gilles died. I cannot offer any objective analysis on his abilities without it being coloured by the time that has passed and the drivers I have seen since.

However, Gilles - like Sir Stirling - is a driver so famous and so fabled that he was and always will be a world champion. So much that people are genuinely surprised to learn he never won one.

 

[Greycap]

if you put Hamilton (or Kubica) in a car, you can expect 110% of its performance 90% of the time

And for the rest of the time this year he's been crashing into Vettel's rear tyre, a tyre wall, Massa's rear wheel, Webber's front wheel - that's actually well over the remaining 10%, more like 25% of the races this far and I have a feeling I forgot one from the list. Vettel has crashed himself out of the race (once with Webber, once with Button) twice this year, hardly 20% of the time.

Everyone keeps saying Vettel is he "wonder boy" because he has a superior car at this point of his career. He actually began driving at Toro Rosso fighting for the midfield positions. Not many of those same people pay any attention to a certain Lewis Hamilton who got (arguably) the fastest car on the grid for his very first year and has driven in a top team all the time. To make it even more weird, nobody seems to notice his banzai moves driving people off the track (Monza 2008 being a prime example, if it was 2008 but Monza anyway) - they're written off as "good aggressive driving" because nobody is nuts enough to not give way to him. Then when Vettel tries something similar, the Turkey crash for example, they're seen as rookie mistakes because Webber didn't give way.

They're both young, they're both far too hot headed, they're both blindingly fast. Hamilton is actually the more experienced, as well as older, of the two. Yet it seems to be universally OK to bash Vettel for every mistake he makes, try the same against Hamilton and up comes a hoard of defenders calling you a hater because Lewis is such a good driver.

A very good example is the bad luck this season. Nearly all the "bad luck" Hamilton has had has become from him crashing into someone or something. And people say he'd lead the championship if he didn't have such bad luck. How about Vettel who has had engine trouble at Bahrain, a loose wheel nut at Australia, brake trouble at Spain, a puncture at Great Britain (thanks to Hamilton, actually), again brake trouble at Monza or a blown engine at South Korea? Without those the championship would be his, no doubt.

 

[yeti]

(and there are people claiming he deliberately allowed his car to scythe across the track today in the hope of taking Hamilton out - I don't agree with them, but I can see how they reached this conclusion)

Interesting... I have been thinking about that... it is a wonder why he didn't apply any braking at all after the accident... that said - I can only guess that it was because he'd hoped that he could carry on - and didn't want to be stuck in the wall... rather than anything sinister.

C.

 

[Famine]

And for the rest of the time this year he's been crashing into Vettel's rear tyre, a tyre wall, Massa's rear wheel, Webber's front wheel - that's actually well over the remaining 10%, more like 25% of the races this far and I have a feeling I forgot one from the list. Vettel has crashed himself out of the race (once with Webber, once with Button) twice this year, hardly 20% of the time.

Everyone keeps saying Vettel is he "wonder boy" because he has a superior car at this point of his career. He actually began driving at Toro Rosso fighting for the midfield positions. Not many of those same people pay any attention to a certain Lewis Hamilton who got (arguably) the fastest car on the grid for his very first year and has driven in a top team all the time. To make it even more weird, nobody seems to notice his banzai moves driving people off the track (Monza 2008 being a prime example, if it was 2008 but Monza anyway) - they're written off as "good aggressive driving" because nobody is nuts enough to not give way to him. Then when Vettel tries something similar, the Turkey crash for example, they're seen as rookie mistakes because Webber didn't give way.

They're both young, they're both far too hot headed, they're both blindingly fast. Hamilton is actually the more experienced, as well as older, of the two. Yet it seems to be universally OK to bash Vettel for every mistake he makes, try the same against Hamilton and up comes a hoard of defenders calling you a hater because Lewis is such a good driver.

A very good example is the bad luck this season. Nearly all the "bad luck" Hamilton has had has become from him crashing into someone or something. And people say he'd lead the championship if he didn't have such bad luck. How about Vettel who has had engine trouble at Bahrain, a loose wheel nut at Australia, brake trouble at Spain, a puncture at Great Britain (thanks to Hamilton, actually), again brake trouble at Monza or a blown engine at South Korea? Without those the championship would be his, no doubt.

I dislike Lewis also. He does make racing exciting though.

Vettel seems - despite his baptism in the mid-field - to not be able to cope with driving his championship-winning car behind anybody else. Out at the front he's great, but get him behind someone and he becomes dangerous to be around (not least to himself), or erratic at best.

Vettel has won eight races - six of them from Pole and never from lower on the grid than 3rd. Alonso has won more races this season from off the front row than Vettel has in his entire career. Button's won from 4th and 5th this year. Even Webber's matched Vettel's off-pole career tally in just this season.

 

[daan]

Webber in particular has been plagued by a regular willingness to drive into someone else (and there are people claiming he deliberately allowed his car to scythe across the track today in the hope of taking Hamilton out - I don't agree with them, but I can see how they reached this conclusion).

Interesting. He did take his hands off the wheel when he hit the wall, and it went back across the track of it's own accord, but he made no attempt to correct it when he put his hands back on the wheel. He was also looking down the track so he would be aware he was heading for someone, or that someone was heading for him...

 

[Seismica]

I'm starting to dislike Legard (Finally).

"Rosberg has overtaken Hamilton... No wait, Button!"

That's right, because Hamilton can't possibly be overtaken

Then a few minutes later he was like:

"Now Rosberg is up to third, now how did that happen? Button must've dropped back, maybe went off the track somewhere."

Then when Brundle put us all out of our misery and pointed it out to him, he said:

"I'm sure it was Button, it must have been the lighting or something"

Seriously Legard, just admit you were wrong.

Then there was Schumacher on Button, which he didn't notice for a while. He then went on to say how Button is struggling in comparison to his teammate, because Button was overtaken by a Mercedes. Did he forget that Hamilton was overtaken by Rosberg? Oh wait yes, that was Button wasn't it

There was Alonso overtaking Hamilton which they completely ignored for half a lap.

He was praising Sutil constantly even though he was driving dangerously, nearly wiping out several cars at turns 1 and 4.

When Kobayashi went wide he said "Well it had to be Kobayashi didn't it, that was expected"

Whenever there was a collision and it would show two cars damaged on camera (Was it Buemi and Glock?) he would say "X driver has spun off"...

When Bruno Senna turned a corner which was blind from the point of view of the camera, Legard assumed he had just been in the runoff (Despite seeing the entire pack turn that same corner moments beforehand).

Aaaargh he just annoyed me so much in todays race it was unbelievable. If it wasn't for Brundle i'd mute it. I might just listen to 5Live over it next time.


...

In other news, I think Alonso drove a fantastic race today. I think he's came back from being the underdog this season, to the guy to beat. There is no one man more deserving of this years championship than him, in my opinion. It doesn't change the fact that he is a complete muppet though.

Button out of it, he has very little chance now. I think Spa was the beginning of the end for his title hopes, but now they are all but gone.

Vettel was unlucky today, very unlucky. His season has been hampered by mistakes and reliability issues. He would still be in contention were in not for those various mistakes (Turkey, Spa, Hungary etc.). I think he's too far down now to take the title. He requires a DNF from Alonso to be truly back in contention for the final race.

Overall it was a good race, but a very poor showing at the start. I was really looking forward to the grid start here, the safety car ruined it completely.

 

[Kneedragger]

However, Gilles - like Sir Stirling - is a driver so famous and so fabled that he was and always will be a world champion. So much that people are genuinely surprised to learn he never won one.

Some men become larger than life after death (Gilles), some are giants but non-champions during life (Moss), and some are a variation of both (Senna. Who, though having less WDC's than Prost, is a practically a mythical figure, while Prost is merely respected ..which is what you show a professor.) Its enough to recognize them as great without counting drivers championships. Its not like we need to decide if Surtees was faster than Moss, all else being equal.

 

[Ardius]

Then perhaps I should demarcate them from proper nouns. Neither Webber nor Vettel are world champion drivers (as with Massa, Barrichello or Jacques Villeneuve) whether or not they are World Champion drivers.

That does confuse things - Webber and Vettel have proven that they can win races just as much as Hamilton and Alonso can. They are no lesser ability drivers.

I agree - Villeneuve makes a great comparison for Webber in that neither are world champion drivers while winning races and getting points on the board. I doubt now that Webber can get the World Championship that Villeneuve did, but between Webber now and Jacques in 1997 driving my car, I'd take Webber.

Well that is because Webber and Vettel have yet to secure a World Championship.
Since when did the words "World Champion" mean anything other than a person or team or entity or whatever that have won a world championship?

I would argue Webber and Vettel are lesser ability drivers, if not in pure speed but in other areas. Nothing to do with World Championships that they have yet to achieve. Of course, displaying great ability suggests they could be potentially world champions, but they are not so until they have achieved it. Stirling Moss is not a World Champion. You might want to think he is, and he may have been good enough given the circumstances, but he is not.
There are many hundreds of racing drivers who are good enough to be World Champion. Very few make it to a point where they can achieve that goal for many different reasons. Shall we consider all these people "World Champions"?

I see more similarity between Webber and Villenueve in that they are both very aggressive drivers and are prone to mistakes. Very stupid mistakes at that sometimes. But their speed and skill comes from their aggression and their determination. Hamilton is just the same but he has more natural skill in order to allow his aggression to actually work and he has bit more capacity to think about his race.

 

[TopGearFTW]

Heh. My predictions were 50% right. >__>

Legard was ridiculously annoying this time out, especially when Brundle was giving us some analysis of a driver's decision, and Legard would cut across him to announce that Buemi had put a wheel on the grass (with no incidents at all), because that is more important.

Also, everything is a "shot in the arm" to one driver or another, and Alguersuari can apparently overtake cars when they run wide, even though they rejoin the track infront of him and proceed to stay there. Every driver should have that talent.

All in all, really happy about this result. I actually giggled like a little girl when Vettel's engine packed in.
Would've been perfect had 1st and 2nd been reversed. Well actually, if 1st and, like, 13th had been reversed that would've been perfect.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

If anybody should be getting any kind of title this year it should be Newey for designing such a brilliant car.

Nope, too unreliable

I can't stand the fact that Alonso won this instead of Vettel! Asides from Singapore and Italy I'm wondering if he actually deserved any other victories this year.

See above. Vettel's car was not reliable enough and Webber crashed out. Maybe you can argue for me that Alonso deserves more points in Malaysia, Belgium and Silverstone.

With Vettel and Webber, you can expect a crash caused by the driver 20% of the time, and 100% of its performance 90% of the remaining time.

Vettel was a bit more impressive in Toro Rosso.

 

[The Outlaw]

Nope, too unreliable.

It hasn't been that bad comparatively though (hell, Webber has no reliability related DNF's) - nor has their reliability issues really been enough to counteract their performance advantage IMO. Ferrari had their fair share of engine issues in the beginning of the year which have handicapped them a bit toward the end of the season and the Mclaren has had a few issues here and there, as well as being an extremely fragile car (unlike the Ferrari).

See above. Vettel's car was not reliable enough and Webber crashed out. Maybe you can argue for me that Alonso deserves more points in Malaysia, Belgium and Silverstone.

In fairness, Belgium and Malaysia had nothing to do with reliability. A bit of bad luck though particularly at Malaysia though. But of course, where do all of the excuses end

 

[spyrrari]

Ok,just got home after work and am happy to have set the digital recorder to record for 4 hours non stop....so it missed the switch to bbc2 offcourse,so i had to aaaaahhhuuummm.....well you know,download it.

So after i settled down i have this feeling(don't feel like writing much cause i worked 17 hours straight today...)

These kind of races show the world champions from the ones that never will be and the ones that maybe will in the future...

I have a huge respect for Mark Webber,but he will never be a WC....
I have a huge respect for Fernando Alonso,and he will be again WC this year!!!!!
I have a huge respect for Seb Vettel,but he will have to wait one more (or 2...)years.
I have a huge respect for Lewis Hamilton and his skill,but i feel he would have be able to do more if the "gay" FIA had not lead the first 17!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! laps by the SAFETY(????????????)car....


I am someone who likes to see men give it all in sports....really show their...well you know!!
What the FIA did today with not letting the race start after 5 laps following the SC whas (for me ......!!)just a show of whimps....i am sorry,i never ever dis agree with the FIA if they stop a rece (red flag)if it really is too dangerous to race....but today after about 5-6 laps this whas not the case anymore....
A wet race is a wet race,and after it stops raining havy,you should let the MEN...yes the guys with the biggest bullocks in motoring world,race for it....
I mean,damn....thats why they are the ones who race formula1 no???????????

Don't get me wrong...i never ev er want to see some driver getting hurt(i whas a huge Senna fan and whas at Imola with my father when IT happened!!!!)but this sport is about the best drivers in the world with the biggest balls and can hanjdle every situation presented to them....

Sorry about this complaining post guys,but this is how i feel...

When i am shutting down tonight and close my eyes to fall asleep,i will think of 1 thing....Ferrari(Alonso)you will do it again.....and damn,you don't even have the best/fastest car....you ARE a WorldChampion mate!!!!!!!....






spy.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

In fairness, Belgium and Malaysia had nothing to do with reliability. A bit of bad luck though particularly at Malaysia though. But of course, where do all of the excuses end

The idea is that the results don't just fall into drivers' hands. It's a combination of driver, car and team. It's not like Vettel crashed into the person in front of him every-time to hand Alonso the lead.



In terms of the championship now Alonso has had the team backing him. McLaren is preaching their equality stance, but if the team doesn't do it, I'm sure Button will back Lewis if it will be reasonable. The situation at Red Bull still isn't clear. Webber has a better chance points-wise, but Vettel most likely won't want to give up. Plus there are probably still some key people at Red Bull supporting him

 

[Ardius]

I'm pretty sure anyone else in Charlie Whiting's position would have done exactly the same....its a very tough decision to make. Personally I didn't really mind because I fully understand why the drivers, teams and the FIA are worried about extreme-poor visibility on a wet track.
I agree with Brundle that the drivers are getting too much of a voice and are becoming political with it. Hamilton's comments didn't help matters - now everyone thinks the drivers are weak which is not true.

Considering all of the drivers bar Hamilton said track conditions were too poor, I'm inclined to believe them. Jenson's comments on the BBC F1 forum were particularly revealing about it.

Frankly I'm not surprised but I'm a little saddened people are criticising the long delays. Should we really be reacting to accidents or preventing accidents?

Don't get me wrong...i never ev er want to see some driver getting hurt(i whas a huge Senna fan and whas at Imola with my father when IT happened!!!!)but this sport is about the best drivers in the world with the biggest balls and can hanjdle every situation presented to them....

It doesn't matter how good a driver you are when you cannot see your braking points and you aquaplane. Its not about having "balls"...its plain insanity.

You claim to be a huge Senna fan yet Senna was the guy trying to stop Adelaide 1991....did he lack balls then? Sure, today was completely different conditions, but the point is still the same.

If you want to blame something, blame the track for being so ill-perpared. The reason the spray hung around so much was because the water couldn't drain into the track surface as it was still new tarmac. Therefore there was effectively standing water everywhere and the only way to clear it is with cars running over it and kicking it up.

 

[Terronium-12]

Ok,just got home after work and am happy to have set the digital recorder to record for 4 hours non stop....so it missed the switch to bbc2 offcourse,so i had to aaaaahhhuuummm.....well you know,download it.

So after i settled down i have this feeling(don't feel like writing much cause i worked 17 hours straight today...)

These kind of races show the world champions from the ones that never will be and the ones that maybe will in the future...

I have a huge respect for Mark Webber,but he will never be a WC....
I have a huge respect for Fernando Alonso,and he will be again WC this year!!!!!
I have a huge respect for Seb Vettel,but he will have to wait one more (or 2...)years.
I have a huge respect for Lewis Hamilton and his skill,but i feel he would have be able to do more if the "gay" FIA had not lead the first 17!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! laps by the SAFETY(????????????)car....


I am someone who likes to see men give it all in sports....really show their...well you know!!
What the FIA did today with not letting the race start after 5 laps following the SC whas (for me ......!!)just a show of whimps....i am sorry,i never ever dis agree with the FIA if they stop a rece (red flag)if it really is too dangerous to race....but today after about 5-6 laps this whas not the case anymore....
A wet race is a wet race,and after it stops raining havy,you should let the MEN...yes the guys with the biggest bullocks in motoring world,race for it....
I mean,damn....thats why they are the ones who race formula1 no???????????

Don't get me wrong...i never ev er want to see some driver getting hurt(i whas a huge Senna fan and whas at Imola with my father when IT happened!!!!)but this sport is about the best drivers in the world with the biggest balls and can hanjdle every situation presented to them....

Sorry about this complaining post guys,but this is how i feel...

When i am shutting down tonight and close my eyes to fall asleep,i will think of 1 thing....Ferrari(Alonso)you will do it again.....and damn,you don't even have the best/fastest car....you ARE a WorldChampion mate!!!!!!!....






spy.

This post seems a fair bit presumptuous. Webber never being champion? How do you know?

Alonso taking the title this year? How do you know? Alonso himself hasn't even claimed that, in fact, he's said himself that anything can happen during the next (and last) two events.

Also, you do realize the track was already quite a catastrophe in dry weather conditions, the safety car staying out as long as it did was nothing but the right decision - even afterward, did you see how many accidents/spins occurred?

 

[The Outlaw]

The idea is that the results don't just fall into drivers' hands. It's a combination of driver, car and team. It's not like Vettel crashed into the person in front of him every-time to hand Alonso the lead.



In terms of the championship now Alonso has had the team backing him. McLaren is preaching their equality stance, but if the team doesn't do it, I'm sure Button will back Lewis if it will be reasonable. The situation at Red Bull still isn't clear. Webber has a better chance points-wise, but Vettel most likely won't want to give up. Plus there are probably still some key people at Red Bull supporting him

Yea, it should be very interesting to see how RB play their cards with the two remaining races. Vettel is likely out of contention unless something unforseen happens to Alonso. Also, Vettel will quite possibly be Webber's own worst enemy if he happens to outperform him the finals races and minimizes the points Webber can snag to catch up to Alonso. Afterall, if Webber were to finish 2nd in both remaning races with Seb finishing in 1st, and Alonso in 3rd (or even a 3rd and 4th in both races), Alonso would still bring the Championship home thanks to his current advantage. It brings up an interesting predicament to say the least for RB

Felipe has proven to be just about useless in terms of getting in the mix and stealing points away from the RB's - so realistically there is not much backing for Alonso there (unless he can do well at Brazil as he's done in the past).

 

[spyrrari]

I'm pretty sure anyone else in Charlie Whiting's position would have done exactly the same....its a very tough decision to make. Personally I didn't really mind because I fully understand why the drivers, teams and the FIA are worried about extreme-poor visibility on a wet track.
I agree with Brundle that the drivers are getting too much of a voice and are becoming political with it. Hamilton's comments didn't help matters - now everyone thinks the drivers are weak which is not true.

Considering all of the drivers bar Hamilton said track conditions were too poor, I'm inclined to believe them. Jenson's comments on the BBC F1 forum were particularly revealing about it.

Frankly I'm not surprised but I'm a little saddened people are criticising the long delays. Should we really be reacting to accidents or preventing accidents?

Ardius,man i do understand what you say...and i do feel the same about safety.....
But mate ....i mean really,is this about a show or is this about the best driving men in the world....seriously!!!!!

Offcourse nobody wants to see havy crashes where someone gets hurt,but look for example at what happened with Webber in Valencia....


Man this is FORMULA1 racing....not the Renault clio cup at Silverstone or something simular....

If you are the best -team-driver- in the world,you must be it at all times....that means you have the BALLS to do it...and this counts also for the people who(C.Whiting)regulate it....




IT IS FORMULA1....HAVE SOME ******ING BALLS....



Sorry for the swearing guys,but as a 30+ year formula1 follower,i am not happy with how things are regulated now!!!!

Though,todays race whas great,it could have been fantastic if it whas let loose after 5-6 laps....




spy.

 

[spyrrari]

This post seems a fair bit presumptuous. Webber never being champion? How do you know?

Alonso taking the title this year? How do you know? Alonso himself hasn't even claimed that, in fact, he's said himself that anything can happen during the next (and last) two events.

Also, you do realize the track was already quite a catastrophe in dry weather conditions, the safety car staying out as long as it did was nothing but the right decision - even afterward, did you see how many accidents/spins occurred?

I don't know if Alonso IS taking the WC man....do you even read my entire post??...i wrote whate makes a difference between a guy who winns WC and a guy who doesn't....read before you write!!

And so what about how many accidents?????????????i mean really....look back for the last 30 years or so(yeah sorry i am an long time follower....)i have seen soooooooo many worse conditions on a track than today,with cars that had about 50% more horses on board and allmost nothing serious happenend....these where men with the BALLS i talked about....men with the knowledge how you race in difficult conditions without losing a life....

Ach,enough talk....i explained how i feel and will stick with this like i have felt when i watched my first formula1 race live 3 decades back....

spy.

 

[spyrrari]

Sorry for the duble post.....



spy.


EDIT:triple post....guess i am really pissed off...

 

[Terronium-12]

I don't know if Alonso IS taking the WC man....do you even read my entire post??...i wrote whate makes a difference between a guy who winns WC and a guy who doesn't....read before you write!!!

I have a huge respect for Fernando Alonso,and he will be again WC this year!!!!!

What does that sound like to you? Sounds like an assumption to me...

Also, these people with balls you speak of, tell me, where are some of them now?

This whole thing that has apparently upset you for whatever reason is kind of ridiculous because you seem to be suggesting that because these drivers or FIA won't sanction a track (an entirely new track which is worse enough as is in dry conditions) in what was said to be monsoon-like weather so the drivers would possibly risk death. If there's little to no visibility, then it's just that - little to no visibility. Seems outrageous, and quite frankly kind of selfish that because things were the way they were some 20-30 years ago (which resulted in quite a few deaths, might I add) that is "pisses you off". I personally just don't understand it, safety should always be at the forefront of anything and shouldn't be compromised just so seasoned watchers can get their reminiscent jollies. I can somewhat (and I do "somewhat") understand what you're implying, but it just flushes itself down the toilet.

 

[FishforRent]

If you want to blame something, blame the track for being so ill-perpared. The reason the spray hung around so much was because the water couldn't drain into the track surface as it was still new tarmac. Therefore there was effectively standing water everywhere and the only way to clear it is with cars running over it and kicking it up.

Speed channel here in the states continued to say that same thing, that the asphalt was too new to allow the water to soak thru the pavement.

Of course I've not built a racetrack, and am not certain about the technology of the F1 pavements, so take this with only my knowledge of roadway construction(many years).....The last thing you want is water below the surface of asphalt pavement. Thats why asphalt is used (oil and water don't mix). Asphalt is used to shed the water off the surface. If water penetrates the asphalt surface layer it will soak into the subgrade and base courses. Once that happens the base material begins to expand and the surface densities and inner strength of the roadway is comprimised. Very soon after that, the traffic weights and forces of the vehicles will buckle and break the road to pieces. The sub-grade and base course under the surface layer of asphalt carry all the strength of the road. The final layer is a wearing surface and relies on slope and camber to shed the water off of it, and then drains or swales to carry the water away.

From my perspective the track was not complete. There was no perimeter drains and valley swales to channel the rain water away from the track. There seemed to be enough surface slope to achieve adequate run-off of the water (but still not enough camber) but it didn't have anyplace to go. There doesn't need to be massive camber to achieve sufficient run-off, but there has to be some. FIA ran the SC for awhile for a reason, I think. They seemed to know that the track could not support a regular wet-race, because basically it was just a big expensive go-kart track with no storm water infrastructure, and from my perspective not enough cross-slope or camber.

 

[Robin]

Pretty amazing race, so glad I didn't get up early to see it because I would have hated having to sit through all the delays and safety car laps. The BBC's re-run of the race was much better in this situation. So glad the race wasn't canceled as it would have seriously damaged the image of the event from the off. I don't think it was as bad conditions as the drivers made it out to be (after the restart).

It was tragic that Webber and Vettel had their issues, I would like to see all the guys in the hunt for the world championship at least finish the races. It took a real effort to drive in those conditions and I think Alonso deserved the win, Hamilton I feel just got lucky and it even surprised him! Also nice to see Shumi suddenly on a warpath again (a bit late though).

As for BBC's Legard he was so bloody annoying this weekend, why does he always have to start his sentences as a question.... and then answer them himself (usually incorrectly)! And what where those grid girls wearing?!

Robin.

 

[Alex.]

The grid girl's tops resembled a serious side-wedgie.

 

[spyrrari]

What does that sound like to you? Sounds like an assumption to me...

Also, these people with balls you speak of, tell me, where are some of them now?

This whole thing that has apparently upset you for whatever reason is kind of ridiculous because you seem to be suggesting that because these drivers or FIA won't sanction a track (an entirely new track which is worse enough as is in dry conditions) in what was said to be monsoon-like weather so the drivers would possibly risk death. If there's little to no visibility, then it's just that - little to no visibility. Seems outrageous, and quite frankly kind of selfish that because things were the way they were some 20-30 years ago (which resulted in quite a few deaths, might I add) that is "pisses you off". I personally just don't understand it, safety should always be at the forefront of anything and shouldn't be compromised just so seasoned watchers can get their reminiscent jollies. I can somewhat (and I do "somewhat") understand what you're implying, but it just flushes itself down the toilet.

Mate i really don't want to go in a huge discussion with you here....

The "assumption" you seem to think i made whas all based on the feeling i think some drivers having an edge over others....(read my first post....) some drivers are WC and some are just not...even IF THEY WINN RACES!!!!!!!!!!!!

And about the "men" I SPOKE ABOUT 20-30 YEARS AGO???...they races on tracks without any barriers whatsoever man....without the safety tooles they have now,and bthey went even faster!!!!....


So again,i don't want to see any horrific accidents,and see any one get hurt!!but for real man....(ahhhummmm)where are the men!!!!...💡




spy.