2010 Korean Grand Prix

[Ardius]

Oh and Legard is reminding me of Murray Walker's last days as commentator. I.e. making a lot of mistakes and becoming totally confused during the race, and not in a funny sense like Murray pre-2000.
He was totally idiotic at the start going on about "How is Button in 4th?" when it was obviously Hamilton....sounds like he spends far, far too much time looking at anything other than the TV feed and only glances at it. Otherwise he couldn't have possibly lost himself like that within only 2 corners.

I wasn't really getting annoyed by him before too much, but this race was particularly horrible. I couldn't help but wince when he shrieked "AND SCHUMACHER PITS TOO MARTIN!" when Brundle was talking about strategies when they were all pitting.
I'm willing to let Legard make mistakes, as even the best do, but I don't remember Murray shrieking irrelevant information (unless it was amusing, like his dubbed voice acting). I just too often get the sense Legard feels he has to keep talking even if he can't think of anything logical, informative or amusing to say. Sure, commentating requires you to always talk but not utter rubbish.

 

[granturismite]

I know your not supposed to post a desire for a driver to crash, but Alonso....I just really dislike him (dunno why, just do), and I hope that he taps a barrier just hard enough to do some suspension damage, and Massa wins in brasil. He is lightning around Interlagos, and deserves it after Hockenheim.

RBR for the Constructors, Webber for the Drivers.

 

[PeterJB]

I can't stand the fact that Alonso won this instead of Vettel! Asides from Singapore and Italy I'm wondering if he actually deserved any other victories this year.

 

[Feschka]

Sutil was a crash waiting to happen.

When it did, he then waited for another one...

And another...

Quite, he looked a little bit nervous...

 

[Ardius]

I can't stand the fact that Alonso won this instead of Vettel! Asides from Singapore and Italy I'm wondering if he actually deserved any other victories this year.

How did Alonso not deserve Bahrain or Korea? Just because he wins due to others' reliability failure, doesn't mean he didn't deserve it. He kept right with Vettel on both races in a car which is meant to be overall slower.

Really, what is with people today and "deserving" things? Are you all so blind to achievements beyond pole positions and race victories?

 

[Kneedragger]

I got my coverage of the race by reading the last 10 pages of this thread, so thanks for posting everyone. Being on the outside looking in I can tell you the river of posts, starting with the rain delay and SC, were informative, engrossing, funny, and biased. Just how I like it.

thanks again.

 

[Danny]

Sorry to go off topic, but not only has Liuzzi boosted his rating at Force India,

This!

AND an Alonso win? A good day for Danny.

 

[PeterJB]

How did Alonso not deserve Bahrain or Korea? Just because he wins due to others' reliability failure, doesn't mean he didn't deserve it. He kept right with Vettel on both races in a car which is meant to be overall slower.

Really, what is with people today and "deserving" things? Are you all so blind to achievements beyond pole positions and race victories?

Chances are Vettel would have won both races had his engines not given up on him. I see deserving as fighting your way to the lead or leading the entire time. Fair enough if the leader crashes and you take his place, because that's a driver error from the leader, but an engine failure isn't, so it's just seems like he's lucked into those victories.

 

[GM]

If Rosberg wasn't taken out he'd have been leading after Alonso came out of the pits right?

 

[Ardius]

Chances are Vettel would have won both races had his engines not given up on him. I see deserving as fighting your way to the lead or leading the entire time. Fair enough if the leader crashes and you take his place, because that's a driver error from the leader, but an engine failure isn't, so it's just seems like he's lucked into those victories.

It rather depends on the "luck" I suppose. But chasing Vettel the entire race distance and not really falling back much only to inherit the lead due to engine failures doesn't take way the fact he chased Vettel all the way.
I can't really see what else Alonso could do with the car he has, unless you think Alonso is holding back speed somehow.

Its not like Alonso had a terrible start, lost loads of positions and had to rely safety cars and half the pack crashing out to win the race. Thats what I call a lucky win.
Chasing in 2nd for the whole race is not a lucky win, though luck played a part (as always).

If Rosberg wasn't taken out he'd have been leading after Alonso came out of the pits right?

Huh? No, he would have been around about where Lewis was, which was 2nd position briefly. Alonso inherited the lead after the pit stops...

 

[GM]

Huh? No, he would have been around about where Lewis was, which was 2nd position briefly. Alonso inherited the lead after the pit stops...

Sorry I meant would he come out second behind Vettel, becuase iirc Rosberg was ahead of Hamilton (not completly sure becuase Legards commentary was so bad getting the two McLaren drivers mixed up) when he retired, and Hamilton came out in front of Alonso because he had a slow pit stop

 

[Alex.]

Everyone on JAF1 is voting Alonso for driver of the day. I'm sorry but I just don't see it. It's Vettel or Liuzzi.

 

[Ardius]

That's it, I give up, you people are blind.

Just because Alonso didn't pull off an amazing overtake on Vettel or completely blasted him in laptimes, doesn't mean he doesn't deserve a win.
He won the race fair and square in difficult conditions. He didn't put a foot wrong all race and had to make up ground after the wheel nut problem. Whereas Vettel easily led in a superior car and managed to screw up and lose 4 seconds in one lap to Alonso.

I'm not even an Alonso fan either. I've already had to defend two different drivers who I have never even liked in the slightest. What is up with everyone?

 

[Alex.]

I'm not saying he didn't deserve the win, but he was not driver of the day today for me.

 

[F1GTR]

The amount of butthurt from Vettel fans in this thread is hilarious.

 

[Ardius]

I'm not saying he didn't deserve the win, but he was not driver of the day today for me.

How can you not see why people vote for him as Driver of the Day though?

 

[Alex.]

How can you not see why people vote for him as Driver of the Day though?

Because of how I feel about the votes for Liuzzi and Vettel. Liuzzi dodged collisions all over the place and finished a very good position for FI. Vettel had a pretty much flawless weekend and didn't finish because of reliability. Alonso drove as well as Vettel did but wouldn't have passed because Vettel was quicker on the day and started on pole. Any driver who had a faultless race today has done very well, including Alonso. Had Webber not made an uncharacteristic mistake or had Vettel's engine not blown, I don't think people would be clicking for Alonso. However, they did, but this didn't change the way Alonso would've driven the race, he was pushing a lot by the looks of it.

You can bring cars into it if you like, but none of us are in a position to say how the cars compare.

 

[Joie de vivre!]

Vettel was indeed good, actually superb, leading whole race till ... Renault blew out.

Alonso was also driving very satisfying. Webber was disappointing, and he also ran into Nico ...

I also think Schumi could have accomplished a lot more.

Btw. what was wrong with Jenson? Car, tires?

 

[Sureboss]

He looked after his tyres like no one else. Always some many "ifs" when someone has an engine failure. I wouldn't begrudge Alonso for the win, or if he won the title by anything more than 7 points.

Jenson was wrong with Jenson. He loses all focus when the car isn't perfect. He always struggles when the car isn't exactly to his demands. He's shown a lot of weaknesses this season.

 

[Ardius]

Because of how I feel about the votes for Liuzzi and Vettel. Liuzzi dodged collisions all over the place and finished a very good position for FI. Vettel had a pretty much flawless weekend and didn't finish because of reliability. Alonso drove as well as Vettel did but wouldn't have passed because Vettel was quicker on the day and started on pole. Any driver who had a faultless race today has done very well, including Alonso. Had Webber not made an uncharacteristic mistake or had Vettel's engine not blown, I don't think people would be clicking for Alonso. However, they did, but this didn't change the way Alonso would've driven the race, he was pushing a lot by the looks of it.

You can bring cars into it if you like, but none of us are in a position to say how the cars compare.

I think people would have voted for Alonso even if he hadn't won.

And of course we can compare the cars, its pretty simple really - the Red Bull and Ferrari are very clearly the fastest cars. However, the Ferrari very clearly is not on par with the Red Bull (evident with the huge amount of pole positions and general pace weekend to weekend).
I believe Alonso has an edge over Vettel in outright speed but this is balanced out through their relative car strengths. The fact they equalled each other in the race shows there was little to choose between them. And if there is little to choose between them, why does Vettel "deserve" more recognition simply because he drove the race a few seconds ahead of Alonso? Why does his position in the race immediately mean he was the better driver?

 

[chromatic9]

Thought the race could've started a lot sooner. Seemed like pussy footing around just because of a bit more spray on the main straight. There was no rivers or slow lap times. Just usual wet conditions. Getting a bit sick of this spray nonsense, it's not just this race I've heard it. Hopefully the less experienced drivers are more happy with the wet conditions after today. Granted some of it wasn't seeping through the tarmac but if the drivers had their way we wouldn't have raced. The British Grand Prix of 2008 wouldn't have happened and so many others. This is setting a bad precedent to where any normal rain means no race start.

The silly conditions where there's torrential downpour it perfectly understandable or huge river crossing the track, but it was mostly drizzling. I just hope any light/medium rain fall doesn't now mean we have to call the race off because of spray. After they started, the rain fall went back to like it was before.

Anyway, you only have to watch the race to see it was very way too cautious.

I just loved Lewis radio feed. How are the conditions? "Yeah they're Good, conditions is good, the track is good". How is the light level Lewis? "The light level is fine... the light level is fine".

BBC Commentary team was atrocious though. As if they went into some relapse waiting for the race.

Great race when it finally started, nothing out of the ordinary conditions wise. Super stuff from Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso.

I can see in 5 years time where it starts raining and the drivers are on the radios calling for the safety car because of spray or their car spun. Classic safe Races like Brazil 2009 would be stopped. In fact Brazil is more dangerous.

 

[Hun200kmh]

If this forum gets any more closer to what the autosport forum is (meaning, it makes me dig through pages of fan-made-posts to find "normal" ones) it will truly become boring. Maybe Ardius could start another social group here, to allow easy access to unbiased opinions.

If Webber wins this title it will be entirely justified. He did amazing races this year, and his team mate is none other than the "wonder kid". I'd like to see how would Alonso, Hamilton and Kubica fare in such conditions (I just mention the guys everyone thinks are "the best" now).

Same to Alonso, I really do admire him, most of all his persistence, the fact that he never lost faith when everyone said he was already out of the title race, after his silly and totally unjustified mistake at Spa (note to Alonso fans: very similar to what Webber did today).

So, if the title is decided between these two guys, I really don't care which way it goes.

Now, just a few words for all those guys that think that Keke Rosberg didn't deserve the title he got. 1982 was a particularly sad year for me as a GV fan, and also Ferrari admirer. But I do remember perfectly the WONDER that was to behold Keke Rosberg driving his low powered - non-turbo - Williams. So, I will only say this. You just do not know what you are talking about.

 

[LadyGuardian]

I'm still a huge Webber fan and it sucked to see him go out like that, let alone take out someone else! But I have a new respect for Hamilton now. Hearing him on the radio was fabulous and I honestly expected more drivers to be eager to go like that. The last two races are certainly going to be quite a bit more interesting now. I even almost went to bed when Webber was out but it's a good thing I stuck it out. Craziness.

 

[lpb-nissan-gt-r]

Di Grassi takes out the Bridgestone sign. That's ok, they're throwing it away after this season anyways.

.

Made me lol ....alot
God bbc are not on the ball lately commentary dropping and Legard is starting to annoy me with his in-accuracy put on Crofty and Davidson and dont get me started on the iplayer serously past three races has annoyed me I think Vettel deserved to win today he drove brillantly shame about his engine Alonso I just dislike and hope he doesnt win the title hopefully Hamilton wins (FANBOYISM) Red bull deserve the contructers championship there car has been sublime this year, felt so sorry for petrov he seems to fall so badly from abnormal situations, hope he keeps his seat next year, Kobayashi relativly quite race today aswell oh and Sutil in trouble cannot remember the punishment though but he was OTT today good drive from Massa though. hopefully Alonso engine blows up next race.

Paris Peach

 

[The Outlaw]

Chances are Vettel would have won both races had his engines not given up on him. I see deserving as fighting your way to the lead or leading the entire time. Fair enough if the leader crashes and you take his place, because that's a driver error from the leader, but an engine failure isn't, so it's just seems like he's lucked into those victories.

That's laughable reasoning. You could just as well say that Vettel and Webber have "lucked" into most of their victories and success this year with a car that is often untouchable and SHOULD be in a championship of it's own.

Edit: I find it rather amusing how some of you get so upset and defensive just because I'm of the opinion (it's just my opinion) that Button and Webber aren't really the creme of the crop in F1.

 

[PeterJB]

Their car is faster because they have the best designer and one of the strongest combinations of drivers, not just because luck was on their side.

Vettel and Webber have lead their winning races this year from start to finish, they've only lucked out into other victories because of mistakes and/or reliability issues from each other. Yes they have both made mistakes this year, but then who hasn't? Alonso and Hamilton have a fair few on their plates too. Asides from Singapore and Italy Alonso won the other three races because of reliability issues from Vettel and team orders against Massa. And he hasn't been a front runner in every race, whereas at least one of the both Red Bulls have.

 

[Ardius]

Edit: I find it rather amusing how some of you get so upset and defensive just because I'm of the opinion (it's just my opinion) that Button and Webber aren't really the creme of the crop in F1.

Thats not what you said at all.

What you said was Webber doesn't deserve to win the title. He is no more or less deserving than Hamilton or Alonso have been this year.

 

[The Outlaw]

Their car is faster because they have the best designer and one of the strongest combinations of drivers, not just because luck was on their side.

Vettel and Webber have lead their winning races this year from start to finish, they've only lucked out into other victories because of mistakes and/or reliability issues from each other. Yes they have both made mistakes this year, but then who hasn't? Alonso and Hamilton have a fair few on their plates too. Asides from Singapore and Italy Alonso won the other three races because of reliability issues from Vettel and team orders against Massa. And he hasn't been a front runner in every race, whereas at least one of the both Red Bulls have.

And to win the race you first need to finish the race. Yes they may have a fast car but it's just as important to be reliable. According to you the only way Alonso deserves a victory is if he can actually outperform or overtake the superior performing RB's on track - which is often an impossible task given the performance deficit. So basically no matter how well Alonso drives, according to you Vettel and Webber are the ones who really deserve to win thanks to the fact that they have cars which have been in a league of their own throughout the season in terms of performance - yet aren't even leading the WDC despite the many mistakes from Alonso in a inferior car and misfortune which has struck Hamilton quite often

 

[Famine]

I don't think Webber or Vettel are world champions - regardless of whether they win the title or not (same as Massa). I think Alonso, Button, Schumacher and Hamilton all are world champions - regardless of whether they won the title or not. Quick examples: Sir Stirling is a world champion, but never won one. Jacques Villeneuve isn't a world champion, despite winning one.

Of course they deserve it if they finish the season with more points than anyone else and even if the car plays a huge part, the car isn't going to win squat unless it's driven by someone. The Red Bull car is certainly a championship-winning car though.

Ultimately if you put Schumacher or Button in a car, you can expect 100% of its performance 100% of the time, if you put Hamilton (or Kubica) in a car, you can expect 110% of its performance 90% of the time, if you put Alonso in a car, you can expect 101% of its performance 99% of the time. With Vettel and Webber, you can expect a crash caused by the driver 20% of the time, and 100% of its performance 90% of the remaining time. They're damned fast drivers. They're damned erratic drivers - Webber in particular has been plagued by a regular willingness to drive into someone else (and there are people claiming he deliberately allowed his car to scythe across the track today in the hope of taking Hamilton out - I don't agree with them, but I can see how they reached this conclusion). Alonso, Hamilton, Button and Schumacher you can depend on - they drive like world champions, rather than kids with something to prove, even if they may sometimes get a little dirty.

 

[Ardius]

You are World Champion if you secure the World Championship, what a daft definition, Famine.
Surely you could just say: Hamilton, Alonso, etc are great drivers whereas Vettel and Webber are merely good drivers. Why confuse things further with multiple definitions?

And for the record, Villenueve certainly is a World Champion/good driver. Its sad he is rarely noted for it. He is erratic just like Vettel and Webber but he has something else about him, a little like his father actually (or should I say a lot?). I like Villenueve's determination in certain respects, even if its usually blind determination.
Actually, I would probably say Webber is the new Villenueve. (though I don't like Webber so much). Villenueve's 96 season made him champion material in my opinion.